billh

My most difficult intersection is a shared straight/right lane with a solid red/ green arrow. The traffic is mixed, some right turners, some straight goers. I go straight. I've been experimenting with a left bias to let the right turners turn. This is not an issue unless I am first in line. My previous position was center to protect myself from straight-goers to my right.

This morning I was about 6th in line. The first five cars turned right on the green arrow. As I approached my solid red, I movd to the left of the lane. Behind me was some sort of SUV slowing pulling up on my right. I waved them through, thinking they wanted to turn right even though no turn signal (I'd say about half the right turners do not use their turn signal on the green arrow). At that moment, my solid red turned solid green so, not having unclipped my pedal, I moved ahead, looking over my right shoulder to check the SUV. She surged, not to turn right but to go straight! Fortunately, I had position, so I made a quick motion with my right hand and moved in front of her. She slowed. I moved right and she passed left. So, it appears the left bias worked this time, albeit with a somewhat tense moment there.

kf5nd

If you pull WAY forward at the light, into the pedestrian crosswalk, but still solidly claim the lane from the left half of the lane, and not too far to the left, cars can still make their right turn as you're waving them through (nice courtesy!), but they can't go straight, as you are still "destination positioned".

noisebeam

Maybe it works, but I just don't do this as the law indicates one must stop at the stop line and especially not in a x-walk. So I do that.

Al

noisebeam

Your first priority is to be safe. This always comes second to being courteous. So stick with blocking the lane, then learn to position yourself more to the left so that right turners can pass only if they put their right wheels very close to the curb - no straight goer will do this.
Also I never wave thru a person who does not have their right turn signal on. If they are not courteous to those around them, why should you be courteous to them? - But more importantly if they truely were intending to go straight, they may think you want them to pass you on your rightl, which happened in this case.

Al

kf5nd

The place where I do it... has no peds, ever. This is Houston, no one walks.

If there were peds, I would not do it, agreed.

noisebeam

There are no to very few peds here either. I don't do it on principle. If I expect the full rights of the road, in return I obey all the laws that go with that right.
Al

Helmet Head

Yes, I agree that's important. Look for the turn signal. Do not yield the right-of-way to anyone who is not clearly turning right. In this case, it was reasonable for her to think you were yielding the right-of-way to her, even though she was going straight.

I also agree about not stopping ahead of the stop line.

Serge

genec

I like that... and tend to do the same... in my mind it is a case of "sorry, I have no idea what your intentions are..."

This is one thing that really gripes me... folks that cannot signal either to me on a bike or to me in a car.... what, that little lever just takes soooo much effort... Sigh.

Treespeed

The problem with this is that sometimes the cars can't pull up enough to trigger the light sensors. I think on the issue of pulling up into the crosswalk you guys are being a bit pedantic.

nick burns

How's the line of sight to the intersection? Can you just time your approach so you arrive at a full green light and traffic has already moved through?

noisebeam

That is a unique situation. Also if the sensor is only one car deep (actually I have never seen these) it is very likely a low volume intersection, not one with different lanes.

Anyway if a sensor you encounter regulary is not triggered by your non-carbon bike I'd suggest calling the city and getting something done about it - many traffic departments are responsive to constructive feedbck and happy to make adjustments to sensor sensitivity. Much better to fix the root of a problem than to create work arounds.

Al

schwinnbikelove

I do something opposite. When does your green arrow come?

There's an intersection here where the green arrow is first (with a solid red, though), then followed by the general green. I usually hang pretty far back at the curb and let the right turners go, and either they'll all go then the green will come, or someone going straight will get to the head of the line and stop everyone, in that case I'll move up next to them.

Hasn't gotten me hit so far...(*knocks on wood*)

Treespeed

I wouldn't call cautiously pulling into the crosswalk creating a work around problem. I see it as a better solution that allows right turners the room to come around me and for me to position myself properly so that I am not passed on the right by thru traffic. The crosswalks in my neighborhoods are quite large and remember this is Los Angeles so no one is walking anyways.

noisebeam

Look, its a very minor detail here, nothing to debate. I just like to follow the law, just as I don't ever speed when driving. I could care less if some cyclists stop beyond the stop line.
But my point about the work around is this: If one just lives with the situation of the inductive sensor not working one is lazily allowing the situation to persist, when a simple phone call (or email) will solve the problem for you and all the other cyclists. Instead of hoping someone else will report it, just take the initiative. Not only does it fix the specific situation, but creates awareness in the traffic department that sensors need to work for all legal road users. Even after the sensor works right you can still pull up beyond it if you want.

Al

jnbacon

I have this same situation at two places in my commute, and do the same thing, with one important exception: I don't give way if I'm at the front of the line, until I have crossed the street and made it past the line of left-turning oncoming traffic. This allows oncoming traffic to see me, and keeps the folks behind from trying to pass me, thereby squeezing me into the curb. If I was car or motorcycle going straight, they couldn't get by, so I block them and think large.

Helmet Head

It's really a state-of-mind/mentality issue. It's about thinking and seeing yourself as part of the vehicular traffic flow, or separate from it.

A cyclist who is comfortable going beyond the stop line and waiting in the crosswalk probably has a significantly different state-of-mind/mentality about traffic cycling from one who is uncomfortable doing that. Such a difference in state-of-mind/mentality is likely to affect subtle but substantially different behavior in other traffic situations as well.

So it might seem pedantic, but it also may be a more significant thing than it seems on the surface.

It all goes to the "act as" clause of the VC principle: Cyclists fare best when they act and are treated as drivers of vehicles. You cannot expect to be treated as a driver of a vehicle if you don't act like a driver of a vehicle. The signals you send with body language, lane positioning, and, yes, choosing to stop before or after the stop line, all affects how motorists perceive you (and, in particular, whether they perceive you as a vehicle driver or not).

Take yourself seriously if you want others to take you seriously. If you look like you're just playing out there, you'll be (mis) treated accordingly.

Serge

billh

This morning I was running a little late so traffic was light. I was the first in line again. Solid red, I biased left but not as much left as the previous day. I noticed the gutter pan is quite wide, perhaps 1.5 feet, then about 12 ft of pavement so my goal was to force right-turners into the gutter pan to turn. Pickup truck pulled up behind me with turn signal. Green arrow. I waved them through. He waved kindly in return. Wow, this was working fine. Next vehicle, women in a black SUV, no turn signal. She followed the pickup truck to make the right turn. No more traffic, solid green, I go.

One note, I had no opportunity to close the gap on the SUV if I took her lack of turn signal literally, ie she was going straight, because she followed the pickup very closely. If she would have been going straight, she would have been directly to my right, but then I think I would have had enough time to gesture through the window about going first through the solid green, given we had time waiting during the solid red/green arrow. I guess the problems happen when a vehicle pulls up simultaneous to the solid green. This sounds like a rare occurence, but over time it does happen.

I think next time I will shift a little more to the right to close the gap a little more next time. I don't think they were in the gutter pan for the turn.

Brian Ratliff

This is exactly what I would suggest. Get far enough to the right that a person going straight will have to make a mighty swerve to get around you. This way right turners can still turn right, but people going straight will have to make an obvious manuver to get around you.

When I am in this situation and a person swerves around me to get to my right to go straight, I look them in the eyes and ask them with my eyes and body language: "what the H*LL?..." It at least expresses my discomfort with their actions. Then I move up in front of them again if there is space once they are stopped and if the light is still red.

noisebeam

Bill, sounds like your getting the hang of it. Just remember the back up plan is to fully block vehicles of all directions, just like a car would if it wasn't turning right. Maybe you feel it annoys other drivers, but ignore that feeling.

But also consider how bad or unsafe it really is if a straight goer is on your right? Is it that terrible? You are both going straight and thru the intersection the same speed so you can either get in front of them or pull in behind them. You are basically eye to eye with the driver and can 'clearly communicate' that they need to accomidate you. Maybe not pleasant but not something that is likely to cause an accident.

Al

Helmet Head

Exactly!


LOL! I remember a line from that old Newhart sitcom where he had a bed and breakfast that was something like, "When I have feelings that distress me, I deny and suppress them." Anyway, that's the right advice in this case. You'll get used to it.

Helmet Head

I'm glad it works for you, but this behavior is akin to Treespeed's action of pulling up into the crosswalk. In both cases you're not acting like a driver of a vehicle, and, so, you are less likely to be treated as one.

If you don't want to be treated as a vehicle driver on the roadway, that's fine. But I find riding in traffic to be much more enjoyable when others treat me as a vehicle driver, and I find it much easier to get them to treat me that way when I act like a driver of a vehicle (albeit a narrow and low-powered one). That means not pulling up into crosswalks, not hanging out at the curb to the right of right-turners, not riding in shoulders and bike lanes except to explicitly allow faster vehicles to pass, etc.

Treespeed

Serge,

that's quite a slippery-slope kind of arguement you've got going there, and I definitely don't appreciate your later post where you compare me pulling up into the crosswalk to allow right-hand turners to proceed to hugging the right curb until traffic clears. What motorists perceive is that I'm being courteous to right-turners, and yet indicating by my position that I am travelling straight through the intersection. I am not a vehicle driver, I'm a cyclist and since I don't subscribe to VC dogma I don't feel a need to follow every little law to the letter, just like your flexibility when it comes to speed limits on long stretches of desert interstate. I don't seem to have any problem getting drivers to take me seriously.

noisebeam

I like to follow the traffic laws when driving or cycling. It has nothing to do with VC, just what is the law. I also stop at the stop line when driving a car which most people don't do, I don't speed, etc. The strange thing is when I started doing this 5 or so years ago (purely on a whim) it felt weird at first. Now it is just natural and overall makes for a more relaxing drive.

But I am certainly not fanatical about this, I will happily stop or stop then pull beyond the stop line in a on a bicycle (or even car) if the situation calls for it. For example if a truck pull up to my left beyond the stop line and blocks my view of cross or opposing traffic, I pull up a bit so I can see what is going on for my safety.

Al

billh

Noise, taking the lane, center bias, is what I've done for 1+ years, remember? Just recently I experimented with circling on the sidwalk, and now left/center bias.

That happened once, which is what convinced me to take the lane for so long. It was pretty bad because they tried to gun it to pass on my right quickly off the solid green while oncoming traffic was edging forward to turn left across my path so literally I was caught between two large vehicles, one of which was accelerating fast. Hope that won't happen again, and I'm not sure I can prevent it with this lane position, maybe just minimize chances.

Ohio Trekker

Treespeed,

I'm with you on this one, VC and any other styles aside, I do the same thing I pull up to the right of the car proceeding through allowing people to make the right turn. Usually I don't even have to pull up as far as the crosswalk, but if there were no pedestrians I would. Cars have plenty of room to make the right turn, with me on the line. I make sure the person to my left knows that I am going straight through and I will start off right before the green and move a little to the right to give them plenty of room to pass me in the intersection.

I think people who adhere strictly to one set concept in cycling are missing the boat, and personally feel each and every intersection or situation, as well as each and every rider needs to to what is best and safest for each of the varying situations.

As a cyclist, I truly believe that motorists appreciate my exhibiting a little common sense as well as courtesty in my dealings with them, even if I am not acting exactly as a motorist. If I stay in the through lane people are going to want to swerve furhter to the left, in some intersections interfering with traffic turning left. Why put the whole intersection through that when I can maneuver sensibly and make it easier for all of us.

I personally believe the majority of (NOT ALL) drivers are good drivers, courteous and decent human beings, but, I think they are often confused in their expectations and perceptions in dealing with cyclists on the roadway. Anything I can do to make it easier for them, typically ends up with them in return attempting to make it easier for me! Just as we cyclists have a tendency to dwell on the pecker that cut us off, or the bozo who had to yell profanity, motorists do the same in return, they remeber the cyclist who was "in their way" as opposed to the cyclist who left them plenty of room. I prefer to learn from the bad ones, but dwell on the good ones. It's the good ones I have a chance of reaching anyway so why waste my energy on the bad ones! And which are the ones that are going to help me heaven forbid when the bad ones collided and leave the scene!