I was going to respond to acidfast, but you beat me to it.

What I was going to say, as he was asking for evidence to back up my statement that clipless are superior 'in feel and function'.

Well, feel is subjective, and users of clipless pedals generally agree, which can be seen above in this thread, and in many others across the inter-mation super-webway. Only the people who do not use clipless claim they do not feel better.

As for function, we have to define what we want pedals to do. And for most people, we want pedals that feet do not slip off of and that we can comfortably ride on. Clipless pedals are demonstrably better at this because they hold your foot with less degrees of freedom than any other type of pedal, and in the case of modern clipless, allow movement where movement is wanted, without sacrificing the security and stability of the foot on the pedal when riding.

Jeez, why can't different people have different needs and preferences? Is that so hard to believe and accept? Do you really see this as an argument to WIN?

It's important to consider the pros and cons of any decision.

You've listed the pros, now list the cons.

For me:

1. Requirement for two sets of shoes if one stops anywhere home on the commute that requires reasonable dress.
2. Additional cost.
3. Possible adjustment phase.

Also, spare_wheel is on my ignore list as (s)he doesn't provide useful discourse, such as that response with negative/abusive overtones.

You are correct. There are drawbacks, but they are convenience drawbacks, not function drawbacks. Every person must decide whether the advantages in function outweigh the drawbacks in convenience or practicality. I never said they were more practical, I said they are better in function and feel.

edit:

Except for the generalization about European cyclists being stuck in the Victorian era, there was no insult or negativity in h(is/er) post.

No kidding,

Having an open mind is what prompted me to try pinned pedals, now I have all types of pedals which fit their particular use best.....for me and my style of riding.

If I came here to be told exactly what to do and what to buy, how would I decide whom to listen to? Should I choose the person who argued the most strenuously?

Welcome to the internet!

I don't think that even makes sense. Some studies have said that even tour de france level pro riders do not actually gain efficiency with clipless pedals. I haven't been 100% convinced that's the case, but at best even for them the difference is small.

That's not to say their aren't other benefits - foot retention and handling.

Completely the opposite, if you have foot and knee pain you're far more likely to increase it with clipless systems that hold your foot in exactly 1 place the entire ride. I went through 3 pairs of shoes, 2 fitters, and doing specific exercises to eliminate knee pain from clipless, and that is not untypical. It's a lot easier to avoid knee pain with flats.

The foot retention might or might not help with cadence. Don't even see a benefit with track standing, in fact it makes it more risky if you do fall over that it's slower to get your foot down.

LOL, why don't you go over and tell the most advanced and societally used bike commuting culture that you know better than them and they're doing it wrong.

The people who mention they're commuting in the rain and foot retention have an interesting point. I'd argue that you can get the same grip for that situation with wide pedals with pins, plus decent shoes. But if you might have to change shoes anyways, then there's not as much advantage to go non-clipless. Like I said if you do longer or faster rides, it also makes sense to just stick with clipless for shorter rides as well and not switch. But most of the responses still sound like fashion to me - people do it because that's how other people do it, then afterwards try to come up with justifications. Which wouldn't really be bad if they weren't fanatical about it. I've seen the carbon fiber vs aluminum debates be more rational sometimes, and that's saying a lot.

For the few people that listed out practical reasons they used clipless, while saying they like them without getting fanatical that it's the only option or something, and likewise for the other people commenting on flats, thanks for your responses.

Good point. Reason seems to indicate that you should listen to he who argues least strenuously.

Not at all true in my case. Knee pain issues began because I have difficulty keeping my legs lined up so they track correctly. Getting clipless pedals to hold my feet exactly in place the entire ride has eliminated problems so severe that I couldn't ride for almost a year. I know that isn't the case for everyone, but it isn't true to generalize it for everyone.

A couple of things might be in conflict. First is efficiency before fatigue sets in. It's possible that there is one position for my feet on the pedals which gives me the most efficiency. But holding my feet in that one position can bring on fatigue. Fatigue reduces efficiency. At that point, I'm better off moving my feet than keeping them in one position.

I still use clipless, but sometimes, I unclip just to have a different position.

Amen to that. I ride clipless because I like it. Lots of people don't. Can we all just live and let live?

Those are functional drawbacks as they limit the functionality of the bicycle for commuting purposes with no net overall functionality gain in any other area.

No speed gain.
No financial gain.
No training gain (over an average commute length).
No style gain.

In fact, I can't come up with a single reason to employ them except the amorphous "fit" and "connection" to the bike which is most likely the placebo effect.

Yes, I find that generalisation insulting and tangental to the conversation at hand, which is why (s)he is on my ignore list.

I'm in the same boat - four years ago I developed knee problems from riding that made it almost impossible for me to ride. I suspect it had a lot to do with alignment issues as you describe.

Regardless, switching to clipless eliminated my knee problems and allowed me to get back on the bike.

with clipless i can "optimize" the precise spot on my foot that is in contact with the pedal. this is very useful for people who have a preference -- and i certainly do.



i routinely experienced ankle and knee pain on platform pedals -- especially after mashing up hills. once i started using clipless this completely disappeared.



i did not say there was a benefit. i stated that they encourage track standing. i consider track standing/sitting to be a benefit in and of itself.


that was intentionally amusing. i think it's interesting how some who post constant criticism of north americans have a thin skin when it comes to obviously humorous criticism of continental europeans.

"Some studies". How about "some references" that aren't from Rivendell.

The very few times I've ridden platforms in the past...I've been riding clipless since the early 90s and toe clips since the early 80s...I experienced knee pain from the over dependence on the pushing down on the pedals and not being able to pull up on the back stroke. And, yes, I've read Rivendell's stupidity on "not being able to pull up on the pedal". It's an absolute falsehood. Try pedaling one legged sometime on clip less (or toe clips) and on platforms. If you can't "pull up on the backstroke" you can't return the pedal to the top of the stroke when pedaling one legged.

People project their fears of being unable to unclip onto clipless all the time. It's not true. I have had many instances of being unclipped without thought of doing so. Most recently, I crashed while on a mountain bike and ended up a full body length downhill from the bike without touching the ground first. The bike was 6 feet uphill from me and my shoes were still on my feet. I didn't even think about unclipping.

MTBR is just full of gruesome pictures of pinned pedals and the aftermath of contact of shins and calves with them. To be fair, there are a few pictures of injuries from clip less but they are fewer and far less bloody.

I've found with my SPDs I just naturally unclip in a panic situation as well. I always seem to have the most problems unclipping when I have to think about it.

Stopping at intersections is for losers. Just keep rolling. :speedy:

I like to call it "taking the intersection". It's great for increasing your visibility to drivers and reducing your risk of getting hit. :bike2:

I wish that was my experience!

My input's anecdotal but still relevant I do believe. I've had clipless, clipless/platform, quill and clip, platform, huge platform, bear trap etc pedals.. I liked clipless a lot at first and it was the last type of pedals I tried, the power transfer is awesome and all that jazz (as for that cadence business... if you really want that ride a fixed gear) all very nice and I really did dig it, got the walkable shoes, got a bunch of clipless and clipless/platform pedals and rode the hell out of that.. until one day while in a do or die traffic situation the only thing that saved me from the pavement was a thoughtful motorist who was in the right place for me to grab their car to keep myself and the bike upright!(We won't even talk about the motorist that caused that situation...) this really didn't phase me since it was one incident and I know the perils of biking, by the third time the emergency clip out became a problem I'd had it and went back to quill pedals with cages and I much prefer it, no shoe swaps, able to remove your foot at will, still great power transfer, and the tiny contact patch where you clip into the clipless always felt bizarre to my large feet. And yes, the spd's were properly adjusted each of the three times, I double checked and had a mechanic friend also check it out.

Fair enough, but thus my use of the phrase "more likely". You're much more likely to get knee/foot/leg pain from using clipless than not. But "likely" is the important word, it's interesting that two people (also [MENTION=374530]winston63[/MENTION]) started using clipless and assumably used some sort of bike fitter and the knee pains went away. I'm not trying to say it never happens, but it's the minority of people for whom it works that way. I've heard that happening 1 previous time, but in addition to personal experience, the experience of people I know, I also see a far larger number of "how do I solve x-pain now that I switched to clipless?" threads as well.

There's a huge difference between "occassionally clipless can improve leg pain for some people" and claiming that it typically does.

That's fairly interesting since I would personally assume that clipless and clipped would be almost the same in terms of getting a proper fitting and getting the knee pain to go away, since the real keys I always thought were the appropriate crank arm length, as well as foot positioning over the pedals axle and both are fairly flexible in that sense.. especially if you have a good fitter or know how to fit yourself properly.

But that last sentence is a huge add-on - a good fitter is not cheap, and fitting yourself properly is not simple. It's a bit like talking about an odd car then adding on "...especially if you're an auto mechanic".

It's not a motion that's used almost anywhere else that your leg moves while affixed to exactly the same point over and over again. Usually the leg moves around about how and where it hits as you use it. Like in running, walking, etc. When you're attached to the pedal in exactly the same spot all the time, what could otherwise be a minor problem in leg motion that your body would work out by using the leg slightly differently over time, turns into a exactly repeated motion that turns into a problem. What I mean is - a minor problem can turn into a bigger problem because of the exacting repetition.

Riding clipless is not natural. But in now way does that mean that it's inherently "bad". Surgery isn't natural either, but it's a huge benefit to people with diseases to people who it helps move around better. Likewise, if your body layout is good it can be fine. Or if someone who knows what they're doing sets things up, the posters above certainly suggest that it could even fix a problem if your "natural" motion is somehow screwed up.

But on average, minor problems that your body would adjust to by shifting your foot position around a bit as you ride can turn into noticeable pain on clipless because your foot is always locked into the same position. If your position is good with your body layout - no problem. If it's not, it amplifies what would otherwise be a problem so small it was unnoticeable.

That's my understanding, at least.

Platform pedals are most practical and easiest to use for urban/city commuting. My foot has never slipped off the pedals... I also like to use toe clips with straps on my fixed gear bikes. Toe clips/straps give you the same performance as clipless, and you can wear whatever shoes you want. For everyday commuting which involves very frequent stops and dismounts clipless offers no advantages, my toe clips/straps are adjusted just tight enough to get benefits of foot retention but loose enough to pull my shoe out quickly.

Second smarted post I have seen in a long time on BF.

I just don't understand the need for this kind of dogmatism. I love clipless pedals but I don't run around making blanket statements about how they are "most practical and easiest". They work for some people and not for others. The same can be said for just about anything -- even merino wool versus lycra or fat tires versus skinny.