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Bright Lights: How to make them useful but not obnoxious?

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Bright Lights: How to make them useful but not obnoxious?

Old 11-06-14, 11:02 PM
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Originally Posted by gregjones
Perhaps is the problem is the height of the light. With it mounted on your helmet you are not very far off of a straight shot into a pedestrian's eyeballs.
Automotive lighting regulations include both a maximum mounting height and a requirement that the light angle downward, specifically to protect oncoming users from excessive glare.

Here in Washington, the maximum height for a headlight is 54 inches, and by 75 feet ahead of the lamp, the top of the beam has to be below 42 inches.

There are plenty of complaints that those rules aren't strict enough, lots of glare complaints about some models of full-sized pickups with a lot of eye-level glare, but even the worst legal pickup truck is better than many helmet-mounted bike headlights.
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Old 11-06-14, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by acidfast7
Thanks. I noticed your post, as I was running out the door for band practice. I'll take a look at it. Those are some serious looking lights.

And maybe "hard to enforce" would have been more appropriate than "hard to regulate."

Last edited by Gresp15C; 11-06-14 at 11:11 PM.
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Old 11-06-14, 11:10 PM
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Personally, if I had a more powerful light, I'd opt for more spread rather than a brighter central beam. I've thought about messing with my own optics to see what might work.
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Old 11-07-14, 12:18 AM
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The goal is to see, and be seen without creating a hazzard.

No amount of lumens will replace a properly engineered, focused, and aimed headlight, many of the cycle lights on the market are more suitable to illuminating a ballpark than for vehicular use on a public road.

I use a B&M Cyo with an adjustable mount so I can have both high and low beams.
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Old 11-07-14, 12:51 AM
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I'm surprised that reflectors in the US are not more sophisticated, and also that other kinds of light control strategies are not stock, or at least available as accessories. I easily fabricated an aluminum sheet metal cowl for my Light and Motion 350 lumen torch (I know, dim compared to the others these days), clamped it on with a leftover plastic lmount, and wrapped the outside with black duct tape for stealth. When I'm passing other riders, with a slight turn of the light mount the cowl sharply cuts off the beam. I still have light on my path, and the other rider passes in the dark, simple.
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Old 11-07-14, 07:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Gresp15C
There are two problems with achieving this goal for bike lighting. First, the amount of control you have over the light beam depends on the overall size of the optics, and we don't want something that's huge.
We might not want it, but we'd be better off with something bigger than what we have been getting lately.

LEDs + least weight wins = ever shrinking cycle lights. Tiny, point source-esque lights increase dazzle, decrease visibility and provide far less distance information to observers (i.e., at 200 meters a point source light looks like a point source - and still looks like a point source at 100 meters.)

This is sort of a 'lost knowledge' thing. Here's what's happened to cycle light size in a generation:

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Old 11-07-14, 08:42 AM
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My two Niterider Lumina 700 lights put more light on the road immediately in front of me than my car headlights. The headlights are more spread out, and don't concentrate the light in a small area. I notice this because I ride to my car after work and drive for the rest of the commute home, and am always surprised that my headlights seem so dim. This is on a 2012 car, so they are modern, bright headlights.
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Old 11-07-14, 09:28 AM
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I don't see how you can properly aim a light so intense. It sounds nearly impossible. I also don't see how such a bright light is more useful than something that is moderately bright. I started a thread about this a few weeks ago. Basically, the American attitude is more is better, even more is even better, and even more than that is even better. But life isn't like that. There are points of diminishing returns. Adding more light is not only not useful, it is detrimental. When you learned that 60 psi in your tires was better than 20 psi, did you decide to inflate your tires to 250 psi? I'm guessing not.

It is highly inconsiderate and dangerous to shine thousands of lumens into a person's eyes. No wonder the person cursed you out. You earned it.

The argument of "Hey, it prevented me from being hit, so it's clearly a good thing" is a very poor argument. You could also punch people in their faces and argue the same thing. You have gone way past the point of diminishing returns. Your safety should not come at the cost of everyone else's comfort and convenience. As the anti-smoking activist said, your right to swing your fist stops at my nose.
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Old 11-07-14, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
. . . bring your head down and to the side rather than looking straight at people. That will reposition the light beam, then you can bring your eyes back up and to the the trail so you can see where you're going.
This is what I do with my helmet-mounted light (I also cover my bar light with my hand). It generally works out OK, except for those rare times when I've got walkers/runners on both sides of the trail (yeah I know they're only supposed to be on one side, but that's a different problem), or a walker on one side and an oncoming biker on the other; then I just try to keep my head pointed down as much as possible.

Edit: I do not have a 3200-lumen helmet light. If the ad copy is to be believed, I think mine is about 1200 lumens max, but on the unlit MUP I find the low or medium setting more than enough to light up the wildlife, upcoming turns, "road" hazards, etc. Once I'm back on the streets I generally turn it up a notch or two so I can use it to "light up" inattentive drivers. My handlebar light is rated at 650 lumens, but that too I generally run at low or medium on the MUP; once I get on the streets, it goes into "look at me" strobe mode, and sometimes up to max brightness as well.

Last edited by KenshiBiker; 11-07-14 at 09:35 AM.
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Old 11-07-14, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by noglider
I don't see how you can properly aim a light so intense. It sounds nearly impossible. I also don't see how such a bright light is more useful than something that is moderately bright. I started a thread about this a few weeks ago. Basically, the American attitude is more is better, even more is even better, and even more than that is even better. But life isn't like that. There are points of diminishing returns. Adding more light is not only not useful, it is detrimental. When you learned that 60 psi in your tires was better than 20 psi, did you decide to inflate your tires to 250 psi? I'm guessing not.

It is highly inconsiderate and dangerous to shine thousands of lumens into a person's eyes. No wonder the person cursed you out. You earned it.

The argument of "Hey, it prevented me from being hit, so it's clearly a good thing" is a very poor argument. You could also punch people in their faces and argue the same thing. You have gone way past the point of diminishing returns. Your safety should not come at the cost of everyone else's comfort and convenience. As the anti-smoking activist said, your right to swing your fist stops at my nose.
↑↑↑ This ↑↑↑ Well said Tom
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Old 11-07-14, 10:19 AM
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I have one of those new-fangled eBarf bright lights (600LM) but I tend to shine it down about 8-10m (8-10yd) in front of me. They all suffer from the same problem, their beam is very focused and as such, if it were pointed up, it would dazzle someone. I've been thinking about how I might devise a diffuser to (1) reduce the intensity of the light when viewed straight on (an angled down light is still going to be in someone's eyes when cresting a hill) and (2) diffuse the light across the road more. A small dot (hole puncher size) of cello tape might help with my first goal but not my second.

I had thought of scratching up the front glass (may not be glass) but, if it failed, I've damaged my light. If anyone has any other ideas, that'd be great!!
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Old 11-07-14, 10:25 AM
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Originally Posted by noglider
I don't see how you can properly aim a light so intense. It sounds nearly impossible. I also don't see how such a bright light is more useful than something that is moderately bright. I started a thread about this a few weeks ago. Basically, the American attitude is more is better, even more is even better, and even more than that is even better. But life isn't like that. There are points of diminishing returns. Adding more light is not only not useful, it is detrimental. When you learned that 60 psi in your tires was better than 20 psi, did you decide to inflate your tires to 250 psi? I'm guessing not.

It is highly inconsiderate and dangerous to shine thousands of lumens into a person's eyes. No wonder the person cursed you out. You earned it.

The argument of "Hey, it prevented me from being hit, so it's clearly a good thing" is a very poor argument. You could also punch people in their faces and argue the same thing. You have gone way past the point of diminishing returns. Your safety should not come at the cost of everyone else's comfort and convenience. As the anti-smoking activist said, your right to swing your fist stops at my nose.
+2

I was going to suggest that the OP, since he's bought the monstrosity, might consider aiming it so that the brightest part of the beam hits the ground about 10 feet in front of him. The problem is that that'll kill lov light vision, so he can't see anything except that small patch. It's probably best to find a light with a third (or less) of the light and learn to ride with it. That way he can bicycle where there are other people. Save the spotlight for the countryside.
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Old 11-07-14, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by noglider
I don't see how you can properly aim a light so intense. It sounds nearly impossible. I also don't see how such a bright light is more useful than something that is moderately bright. I started a thread about this a few weeks ago. Basically, the American attitude is more is better, even more is even better, and even more than that is even better. But life isn't like that. There are points of diminishing returns. Adding more light is not only not useful, it is detrimental. When you learned that 60 psi in your tires was better than 20 psi, did you decide to inflate your tires to 250 psi? I'm guessing not.

It is highly inconsiderate and dangerous to shine thousands of lumens into a person's eyes. No wonder the person cursed you out. You earned it.

The argument of "Hey, it prevented me from being hit, so it's clearly a good thing" is a very poor argument. You could also punch people in their faces and argue the same thing. You have gone way past the point of diminishing returns. Your safety should not come at the cost of everyone else's comfort and convenience. As the anti-smoking activist said, your right to swing your fist stops at my nose.
Well said.

My stock lights are perfect for their intended function. Only thing i'm contemplating is a rear red blinking simply to add visibility and a fork mounted light down near the dropouts to "fill in the gap" between the main beam & the road 1-3 feet ahead of my front wheel.

Been contemplating some spoke mounted lights too, white on front, red on rear. 2-3 per wheel.

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Old 11-07-14, 10:33 AM
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Just curious: What brand/model of light has 3200 lumens? I've never heard of one that powerful.

That said, I think 3200 lumens -- or anything over 1000 lumens -- is probably overkill. My main light (Light & Motion Urban 800) has 800 lumens on high, but I almost always run it on medium, which is 350 lumens. I have no need for anything brighter. My previous handlebar light (L&M Taz 1000) had 1000 lumens high/ 500 lumens medium, and it didn't seem any brighter than the 800/350 lumen model.

I also use a helmet light (L&M Vis 360), which is only 120 lumens high, 60 low. I usually always run it on low but it seems much brighter than 60 lumens because the beam pattern is more focused than most lights.

Maybe I have better night vision than some cyclists, but I personally have found no need for a mega-lumen light system.
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Old 11-07-14, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by tarwheel
Maybe I have better night vision than some cyclists, but I personally have found no need for a mega-lumen light system.
I bought my brighter light because it replaces a very lightweight "see me" light which was no good for illuminating the pot-holed road (no, the holes were not filled with Tijuana Gold). However, when the road is wet, which has been often this fall, during my morning dark ride along the unlit street for 3km (2mi), even my bright light is not sufficient to ride at normal speed (~20kmh/12mph). For that reason, I have, over the past 2 weeks, ridden a different route in the morning along lit residential streets.
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Old 11-07-14, 10:58 AM
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Originally Posted by jputnam
There's quite a range. A standard 9004 automotive halogen headlight puts out 700 lumens per headlight, so 1,400 for the pair.

BUT, note that auto light makers are often held to their claims, while bike light makers routinely engage in wild puffery. Many nominal 1,000-lumen bike lights actually put out something around 5-600.
Yeah 9004 (which I consider to be the worst crap halogen headlight bulb there is) is 700 lumen for low beam, 45-watts, 12 volt. 9006's are 1,000 lumens with a 55-watt 12V draw. A standard Philips D2S xenon HID capsule is rated at 3,200 lumens for the 4300K color temperature version (used as OEM equipment in cars), with a nominal 35-watt 12V draw from the ballast (much higher voltage used initially to fire up the bulb).

But those are meant for cars doing 70 MPH down the interstate at night. A bicycle light doesn't really need to be anywhere near 3,000 lumens in order to put down more than enough light.
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Old 11-07-14, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by noglider
I don't see how you can properly aim a light so intense.
Easy. Just switch from a simple reflector to a projector lens. Same way those super-bright movie projector bulbs have been aimed for decades and the current trend in cars as well. In a car it's like any other projector and behind the lens is nothing more than a parabolic reflector and a piece of metal that shapes the cutoff line. So, instead of projecting an image of Godzilla it projects the cutoff, giving lots of light below the line and very little above. Some cars have a small solenoid that pivots that piece of metal out of the way for the high beams. Beam width is controlled by the specs of the lens. Cars use this technology to control the light from a 3200-3500 lumen (per side) HID light as well as less powerful halogens.

Substitute a LED for the headlight bulb and add on a lever to switch high/low beams (hopefully with a little blue indicator LED to remind the rider their brights are on?) and it could all work just fine on a bike.

Actually, it's cheap enough to buy projector headlight assemblies off ebay and high output LED's... I've got a project idea now.
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Old 11-07-14, 12:02 PM
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@TransitBiker, I have a spoke light in my rear wheel. A spoke light in my front wheel distracts me too much, and I think one in the rear is sufficient.

Some headlights, especially the best ones, give two zones of light. One goes three feet forward, and the other lights up the right. My B&M Ixon Core has this. Very nice, though to be honest, I don't think I care about the near zone.

My dynamo-powered tail light burns steady. I hang a tool bag from my saddle, and I have a battery-powered tail light hooked to the bag. That light blinks. So I have two tail lights, one blinking, one steady.

@jrickards, I had one of those cheapy lights and it was stolen quickly. I have a diffuser lens for it which I didn't get a chance to use. Email me at the address below.

@Caliper, I'm sure your techniques will work, but for most of us, it's easier to buy a light that suits the purpose. All that DIY stuff is good if it's fun. Otherwise, ready-made merchandise seems like the best deal.
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Old 11-07-14, 12:26 PM
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@TransitBiker I think a rear blinky in addition to solid lights is nice. I was in fairly heavy traffic last night (30 minutes after sunset) with rain and glare it was almost impossible to discern car and bike tail lights. There was a fellow several blocks ahead with a blinky, it made it easy to spot him and know that he was something different than normal traffic.

I personally use two solid lights and one blink on my ride in to dark and drivers seem to see me and give me a wider than normal berth when passing.
@noglider What is this diffuser like? I am intrigued.
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Old 11-07-14, 12:33 PM
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Originally Posted by gregjones
Perhaps is the problem is the height of the light. With it mounted on your helmet you are not very far off of a straight shot into a pedestrian's eyeballs. With that much power there probably isn't much you can do about it. It seems that if you are riding a path with dog walkers a low setting should provide ample light if you are riding at a responsible speed.
If you're riding after dark at 12 - 14 mph on a path that not only curves, has hills, ninja dogwalkers, joggers, pedestrians and wildlife you're gong to need more than the low setting to see all the hazards before you get too close to them. What works for me (and may not work for the op) is to aim the helmet light up where it's a little too high. My head is lowered when I'm not having to slow down, allowing the helmet light to illuminate the bike path ahead of the bar mounted light (and yes, having more than one light is good for those days when you forget to charge the battery, it rains, or....), and when I have to slow up the light is not shining in the eyes of the people approaching me as I lift my head. I also cover the handlebar mounted light with my hand until I'm passed the other people. Aiming the helmet light a little to high also allows me to see better in the one hilly section of the bike path that curves to the side as it approaches the parking lot with the flood light shining down the bike path.

I rarely get any negative comments about my lights, and when I have I usually mention how they help me see people in dark clothes after dark.
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Old 11-07-14, 12:36 PM
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Originally Posted by joeyduck
What is this diffuser like? I am intrigued.
Action-LED-Lights ? Lenses/Optics/Reflectors

The first one works with the Magic Shine and works great for spotting skunks and other animals off to the side of the bike path for me.
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Old 11-07-14, 12:52 PM
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There are at least 2 advantages to running both a handlebar and a helmet light. 2 lights at different heights help with depth perception. Also the helmet light allows the biker to see around the corner before the bar light makes the corner. I too will tilt my head away when approaching peds. I'm amazed by peds in complete darkness with no lights and nothing reflective complain. They are sometimes dress as actual ninjas, totally black. Maybe i should employ some heat seeking radar.
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Old 11-07-14, 01:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Caliper
Easy. Just switch from a simple reflector to a projector lens. Same way those super-bright movie projector bulbs have been aimed for decades and the current trend in cars as well. In a car it's like any other projector and behind the lens is nothing more than a parabolic reflector and a piece of metal that shapes the cutoff line. So, instead of projecting an image of Godzilla it projects the cutoff, giving lots of light below the line and very little above. Some cars have a small solenoid that pivots that piece of metal out of the way for the high beams. Beam width is controlled by the specs of the lens. Cars use this technology to control the light from a 3200-3500 lumen (per side) HID light as well as less powerful halogens.

Substitute a LED for the headlight bulb and add on a lever to switch high/low beams (hopefully with a little blue indicator LED to remind the rider their brights are on?) and it could all work just fine on a bike.

Actually, it's cheap enough to buy projector headlight assemblies off ebay and high output LED's... I've got a project idea now.
I don't think it'll be as easy as you think.

Halogen and xenon HID capsules throw out light in all directions except for the bulb base. LED's have a much tighter angle of light output. Since the halogen/HID light is coming out all around, the projector housing uses a parabolic reflector to focus the light forward, and a shield in front of the lower half to prevent the light from bouncing off the bottom of the reflector and up into the air above the horizon. With an LED there won't be any light (or not much light) going down onto a reflector, so a shield is not going to give a sharp cutoff line.
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Old 11-07-14, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by PatrickGSR94
I don't think it'll be as easy as you think.

Halogen and xenon HID capsules throw out light in all directions except for the bulb base. LED's have a much tighter angle of light output. Since the halogen/HID light is coming out all around, the projector housing uses a parabolic reflector to focus the light forward, and a shield in front of the lower half to prevent the light from bouncing off the bottom of the reflector and up into the air above the horizon. With an LED there won't be any light (or not much light) going down onto a reflector, so a shield is not going to give a sharp cutoff line.
Correct, the parabolic reflector is needed for a bulb, but you're forgetting the projector lens in there (these are the headlights with the glass ball look to the headlights where you can't actually see the bulb). The parabolic reflectors only purpose is to make a roughly collumated light beam that the projection lens then sends out to the road. Replace the parabolic reflector and bulb with a LED and LED-type reflector and place it the desired distance behind the lens and you're good to go. Honestly, you can take a magnifying glass or one of the full sheet magnifier lenses and a LED flashlight in your hands and find the right distance to project an image of the flashlights business end on the wall. Move the flashlight somewhat away from the focal length and you can make a more even beam distribution. At this point, a piece of paper can be used as a cutoff shield. Moving the paper around will vary the sharpness of the cutoff (do you like a razor-sharp cutoff or slightly softer?). Now, the beam will be quite narrow because of the lens being used but the same thing can be done with an automotive projector lens, just replace the light source and reflector.

I tried looking for a projector beam bike light and am not seeing any or have not found the right search terms. All I'm seeing are basically glorified flashlights strapped to the bars... I wonder what it would take to make one with a projector and sell the idea to one of the mass-marketers of bike lights?
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Old 11-07-14, 03:13 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by noglider
Basically, the American attitude is more is better, even more is even better, and even more than that is even better.
Well, I'm not an American, so let's start with that. I didn't buy this thing because I wanted the most powerful light money could buy; I bought it because I had been riding with a 500-lumen light and felt the output was insufficient to illuminate hazards, and I knew that most non-brand-name lights vastly overstate their lumen output, so I intended to buy something that I hope would be about twice as bright as the light I'd been using. Just at a guess, I'd say this "3200-lumen" light is probably good for half that at best.

Originally Posted by noglider
It is highly inconsiderate and dangerous to shine thousands of lumens into a person's eyes. No wonder the person cursed you out. You earned it.
So if I ride past you, an interaction that'll last less than a minute, while wearing a light on my head that I'm deliberately trying to direct away from you, I deserve abuse? That sounds like the more American attitude, I'd say.

Originally Posted by noglider
Your safety should not come at the cost of everyone else's comfort and convenience.
That sounds like something cyclists would normally pillory a motorist for saying; what makes it wrong there, but right here? The amount of vitriol this simple question, asked in good faith, has raised is frankly shocking to me. I've had so many close calls on the trail with pedestrians completely unlit and reflectorless, invisible in the dark until I'm right on top of them; with their dogs, running off leash all over the trail, also unlit and unreflectored; but if I try to make the situation safer, I'm the careless and inconsiderate one? Your response seems to speak more from anger and emotion than reasoned consideration; that's disappointing.
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