If you search images of Dutch, English, and Asian roadsters, you will see the bars are typically just slightly higher than seat level. Traditionally the really high bars often associated with "Dutch" bikes were usually just on ladies loop frame bikes.

Ah, that's fair. Most of the pictures I've seen were of ladies bikes. "Slightly higher than seat level" is where the bars have ended up on all of my bikes due to aforementioned ergonomic issues. I want less pressure on my hands, but not zero pressure. And I have to be able to honk up a hill with a basket full of groceries.

I'd fly...like some sort of bird-thing... Weeee!

I need a triple for my terrain. Usually 24 speeds is fine by me, and I'm okay with 21, but it has some gaps in the useful range. The Pacific Northwest is honestly quite hilly. And no, I can't run any local errands via flat routes. Glaciers scraped their way north to south through here, I have to cross multiple ridges just to get to the nearest coffee shop, much less the grocery store. In fact, when we go to the ferry terminal 4.7 miles to the west of us, we actually ride almost 15 miles around our peninsula to avoid crossing all those steep ridges.

I get that it's flat some places and some people can run their errands easily on a beach cruiser or damn near any bike. Why can't some of you get that some of us actually do live in places where we actually really do need gears?

I think this is very much an individual needs thing not a place makes the needs thing. I commuted in San Francisco from the mission all the way to the top of potrero hill on a single-speed (not fixed gear...that would have been insane going home), but that was when I was younger and my knees could handle more pressure. Now I am using 7 gears for Copenhagen's a bridge is my steepest hill topography...

but, I also lived in Switzerland, and I saw plenty of 85 year olds buzzing their way around on poorly maintained old 3-speeds in mountains that make Seattle look downright flat in comparison. So, I would just call us spoiled for choice...though, there does seem to be a group of people who like/want this style...so it is interesting to hear that they languish on many B&M bike shops floors...

I will also note though, that the original bike-style that I was asking about is far far away from the Dutch style of bike (which I think is relatively easy to find in the US if you live in/near a big city even if there are some not so good facsimiles around that lack all that makes dutch style bikes great). What I think is the real question is why the bike manufacturers relegate some of these things (IGH, dynamos, etc.) to cruiser style bikes and never let them touch a touring-type geometry (in the US market...since that is exactly what you do find at least on the danish market), since they can make fantastic commuters...

[MENTION=139342]jsohn[/MENTION], I think the number of people wanting that type of config is extremely small. I'd think the vast majority of people who'd want a touring (or hybrid, mtn, road, etc.) would also want the range and light weight of a derailleur based gear system. There was an increase in people riding hybrids as daily bikes throughout northern Europe about 10 or 15 years ago but according to the bike shops I talked to this was short lived and people went back to Dutchies for their daily ride.

SRAM (and I'd guess Shimano and others) are working on a higher performance IGH for mountain bikes but I'll not hold my breath as I think the design difficulties may be impossible. For those who do want them I'd think any Trek dealer could order one like you have.

I think we do. If I had a lot of huge hills to climb I'd likely use a road bike or e-bike.

What gets me though is all of the people who live in places where that's not the case but all that they see in local LBS's is road, mountain, and cruisers so they pick one of those, usually a hybrid, thinking these are their only options. They use it once a month for a recreational ride along a flat rail trail and that's it.

When it's time to go to dinner or the store they don't think about riding because it's a pain to do so. They think they need to wear a helmet and they don't have anything handy to lash their pants leg with and even then they think they'll get grease on them. They think they'll get sweaty since they always do on recreational rides (and are indeed much more likely to if they lean forward at all) and don't have any place to carry anything. And so they hop in their car for the 1/2 mile trip to the grocery.

This is vastly different from Europe where they are much more likely to see good upright city bikes (not cruisers or leisure) in bike shops and are much more likely to purchase one and end up with something that is much better for their needs—great and more comfortable for recreational rides as well as 1/2 mile trips to dinner.

On post #7 you can see how my bars are: http://www.bikeforums.net/commuting/...-brochure.html

.Quite simply people don't want them. Even the people who have been busting my chops for saying that acknowledge it (see post 156 above). Manufacturers and retailers sell what people want or they don't sell anything at all. Bike sales, as I posted many pages ago, reflect what people want and it's still mountain bikes by about 5 to 1 over any other category.

There are people who use IGH for touring but IGH has limitations. You could run a triple crank with an Shimano Nexus IGH and get a good range of gears for touring but you have to have most of the same equipment as you do for external gear bike. You'd need a triple crank, a front derailer and shifter and a rear tensioner.

Alternatively, you could run just a single ring but your gear ratios would be very limited. For most people that's bad enough but for loaded touring it's even worse. A Nexus with a 40 tooth chainring and 20 tooth sprocket has a range from 87 gear inchs to 28 gear inches. You spin out the top gear around 25 mph and struggle up anything over a 4% grade. My touring bike...which has a wider range than many loaded touring bikes...ranges from 110 gear inches to 15 gear inches. And the entire drivetrain weighs less than a Nexus 8 drivetrain.

Rohloff makes a 14 speed IGH that some people use for touring but you'd better bring a large bag of money. They cost $1500 to $1200 and, frankly, are a tad heavy (2.5 kg). Many people balk at spending $1500 for the bicycle. And if you were going to use that kind of hub for daily commuting, you'd better hire a guard to follow the bike around every day.

I live east of Kent near Covington along the Soos creek trail, and commute down into the Kent valley every day. I do fine with 8 speeds, its the gear range that counts.
26 to 80 gear inches is high enough for how fast I ride, and will get me up any hill I couldn't walk as fast. or faster than I could ride with lower gearing. James st heading east is a mile long 10%+ grade that's no problem. The abandoned section of road heading west out of the Soos creek valley is 14%+ and even when my mountain bike had 3 X 6 gearing it was a 50/50 chance I would have to stop and walk if I hit a rock or bump wrong.
I don't feel limited by My gearing, Saturday I rode south on the Soos creek trail to Covington, east on Kent Kangly road to Maple Valley, south on 169 to Black Diamond, west on Green valley rd to Auburn, north on the Green river trail to Southcenter, north on the river trail to Georgetown, Airport way to downtown Seattle, east on I-90 to Bellevue, south on the lake washington loop to Renton, east on the Cedar river trail to fairwood, and finally south on 140th to home. 83 miles.

Then drama to the contrary? I seem to recall someone saying something about short trips all being "flat".

What gets me is that some people can't respect other people's choices. You could force people to buy only the kind of bike you deem appropriate but that would only insure that people don't even do the once a month recreational ride. But this is the commuter forum where people have other needs than just "short flat rides".

Leaning forward isn't going to make some one sweaty. Riding a bicycle is going to make them sweaty.

People use their cars to go grocery shopping in the US because of the way we shop for groceries. We don't shop every day. Carrying a weeks worth of groceries for a family of 4 is more than most people have the capacity to carry on a bicycle.

And Europe is more compact that most of the US. For many in the US, it's much further to dinner than 1/2 mile. For many, it's further than 1/2 mile to the grocery store. Even within a city like Denver, there are many places where a trip to dinner or to a grocery store is a 5 mile round trip. In the suburbs, the round trip can be 10 miles or more.

For you. And only for you. You can't tell anyone else what they will "do fine" with.

That statement is loaded with cognitive dissonance, and a misrepresentation of what I was saying.

British and imitation-British IGH bikes were available in bike stores and some department and hardware stores in the US before and during the early '70's road bike boom. They were still in (some) bike stores before and during the period when mountain bikes began to dominate. People have forgotten that, in addition to bumping IGH bikes from sales floors, mountain bikes effectively wiped out road bikes for about a decade before they came limping back. In short, the people have spoken.

I might have considered adding a Dutch bike to the fleet, but I already radiate insufferable superiority, so it would be redundant.

Sometimes, something doesn't sell not because it wouldn't suit people but because people don't know how well it would suit them.

With the bike traffic jams they have over there in Amsterdam and Copenhagen, you really don't need a fast bike. You are forced to go the pace of the slowest person, which is probably around 10 mph. Also, there are few, if any hills. Around here, a faster, lighter bike comes in handy.

What I get is - when the terrain really calls out a need for 21 gears and super low gear ratios, there will be few people who will bike commute on it with or without 21 gears; and it is fruitless to proselytize or badger people who are not already cycling enthusiasts into considering bike commuting on such terrain or long distances as a practical option.

It is also silly to make recommendations for good or "ultimate" commuting bikes for non-enthusiasts on the assumption that most/many people are considering a bike for commuting long distances or very step and long hills.

Next time you attend the Dealer /Industry Trade Show, Interbike , in 'Lost Wages' NV, you can ask factory representatives , in person..

& be prepared to order a lot more than Just One ..

Not entirely fruitless. I've succeeded at getting people on bikes.

+1

Or they don't know what alternatives exist. Or the sales folk don't know the advantages and disadvantages of various bikes they have.

I don't know about fruitless but I do generally agree with you. I'll talk transportation bicycling with anyone but I also try to be realistic with their and my expectations. Most people will give short local trips a go but most will not even consider 10 or 15 miles each way even if flat unless it is all on a nice trail (think Midtown Greenway) and even then it's pushing things.

Or the sales folk have either financial or emotional ties to the promotion of the kind of bike that they personally use, even when the potential customer's needs are not similar.

True enough. Those of us working in bike stores during the '70's bike boom days sold lots of Peugeot U08s and Schwinn Continentals to people who gave up on drop bars within the first dozen rides. Mountain bikes, had they been introduced at that time, would have been far more appropriate for most of those people, which explains why, once bike companies (grudgingly) began adding mountain bikes to their lines, the proportion of road bikes sold in the US dropped from 80% of the adult bike market to less than 5% during the '80s.

It's fair to say that Dutch bikes wouldn't be a bad choice for some commuters. If I were to champion a category that's still underappreciated for commuters on this site, though, it would be the much-despised hybrid.

Reference?


Nobody (at least that I've noticed) is trying to force anything on anyone. My and I think others point is one of awareness and that we (and bike shops, etc.) should do a better job of making people aware of what options are available and what the advantages and disadvantages of each is. You seem to have a problem with this.


Leaning forward creates considerable greater sweat than sitting upright. This is partially due to the increased folds in your skin from leaning over and partially due to less wind/air across your body. I very rarely sweat when I ride an upright yet riding a hybrid in the same weather for the same speed will result in sweat.

I agree that major once-per-week grocery excursions don't work well for many people on a bicycle. I do so with my bakfiets but I'd not expect many people to invest in one. For most people though there are still numerous trips that are very appropriate for a bicycle such as short trips to lunch or dinner or to pick up some wine for a gathering of friends or to get spark plugs for your car.

True. But just because some trips are longer doesn't mean that people shouldn't ride a bicycle for shorter trips does it? We have a few cafe's within 2 or 3 miles that we ride to regularly but if we're going to dinner 7 or 10 miles away we'll drive. That's not a problem.

Rarely. Just as with car congestion there are times and places where you have to slow down either due to the congestion itself or out of consideration for others. My typical 'business' pace on a Dutchie is about 13 to 14 mph and I rarely have to slow except through tourist areas and in places with older infrastructure such as along some sections of F. Bolstraat. There have also been times I've needed to ride faster (18 - 20 mph) and this is often possible. On the other hand, if I'm not in a rush I probably ride closer to 10 or 11 mph.