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It's not Cytokine that kills. It's Bradykinin that kills.

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It's not Cytokine that kills. It's Bradykinin that kills.

Old 10-04-20, 10:17 PM
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AnthonyG
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It's not Cytokine that kills. It's Bradykinin that kills.

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Old 10-05-20, 12:01 AM
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Yeah, that theory appeared a few weeks ago. Coincidentally I'd already been taking meds and supplements that helped offset that risk, including bromelain.

Bromelain is an enzyme from pineapples. I started taking it a couple of years ago as a digestive aid, but it also turned out to have some anti-inflammatory benefits for the respiratory system. It seemed to help with my chronic allergy and asthma symptoms, although not as effectively as the prescription inhalers I switched to this spring. But I still take bromelain a couple of times a day.

I take a lot of supplements that probably mostly just make expensive urine. But it's interesting to see one of them turned out to have some real potential benefits.
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Old 10-05-20, 12:22 AM
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The "novel" aspect to this whole thing (SARS-CoV-2) is frightening. They've no solid idea on what's occurring and why. They've got theories about possible connections, causes, impacts. And the variety of symptoms across millions of people has made clear identification and therapy tough, this first (novel) time around.

Hopefully the insights keep coming. Hopefully, in the coming years there'll be a full "accounting" of this thing and its mechanisms of transmission. Tough stuff.
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Old 10-05-20, 01:36 PM
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It's also possible that we're just now beginning to recognize the full range of complications associated with viruses -- "cold" and flu viruses -- and perhaps we merely overlooked the complications that followed previous strains of cold and flu viruses.

For generations we've assumed these were mostly respiratory pathogens, but it's possible that's merely the main entry route. There may be complications, including delayed and long-term complications, that attack other parts of the body, including the brain. Some recent articles revisiting the 1918 flu pandemic pointed out that President Woodrow Wilson appeared to have suffered dementia-like symptoms following his bout with the flu, and never fully recovered.
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Old 10-05-20, 04:41 PM
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obese and meat eaters are most likely to die.
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Old 10-05-20, 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
It's also possible that we're just now beginning to recognize the full range of complications associated with viruses -- "cold" and flu viruses -- and perhaps we merely overlooked the complications that followed previous strains of cold and flu viruses.

For generations we've assumed these were mostly respiratory pathogens, but it's possible that's merely the main entry route. There may be complications, including delayed and long-term complications, that attack other parts of the body, including the brain. Some recent articles revisiting the 1918 flu pandemic pointed out that President Woodrow Wilson appeared to have suffered dementia-like symptoms following his bout with the flu, and never fully recovered.
Absolutely.
And now I hate to be a conspiracy theorist, but will this important discovery be white anted and covered up because its not convenient for those who have invested billions of dollars and/or all of their political capital on finding a vaccine cure?
It won't just be the vaccine makers working against this revelation.

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Old 10-05-20, 06:03 PM
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My grandmother got the 1918 flu when she was 8 and was in hospital for 8wks. Stories are that she was always a bit sickly and never back to her full healthy self ever since.
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Old 10-06-20, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
Absolutely.
And now I hate to be a conspiracy theorist, but will this important discovery be white anted and covered up because its not convenient for those who have invested billions of dollars and/or all of their political capital on finding a vaccine cure?
It won't just be the vaccine makers working against this revelation.
There's not a lot of money to be made out of vaccines generally. India has the biggest manufacturer of vaccines because no one else can be bothered mostly. I've often mused that the anti-vax movement is astroturfed by big pharma, because there's no money in a treatment that is a one off shot, make more sense to be able to constantly sell medications for recurring illness.
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Old 10-06-20, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Trevtassie View Post
There's not a lot of money to be made out of vaccines generally. India has the biggest manufacturer of vaccines because no one else can be bothered mostly. I've often mused that the anti-vax movement is astroturfed by big pharma, because there's no money in a treatment that is a one off shot, make more sense to be able to constantly sell medications for recurring illness.
Yeah no. There's plenty of money to be made from vaccines when governments bend over backwards to provide pharmaceutical companies with blanket exemptions from liability. Also I clearly stated that political capital was at stake as well.
Anyway I digress.
I'm not anti-vaxx, I'm pro Science. When people claim that you have to be either pro-vaccine or anti-vaccine then you know that there is no Science involved in the debate.
What Science do you have in the first place to demonstrate that a vaccine was the correct treatment regime to pursue for COVID-19?
This is the beauty of the "Bradykinin hypothesis" that I provided a link to.
Someone was doing REAL Science. They made an observation, they asked a question, they proposed a hypothesis, they tested it and then they published the results.
And because it was real Science its stands more than a reasonable chance of being ignored. I can't see a major pivot away from the pursuit of a vaccine at the moment even though the Bradykinin hypothesis is pointing towards some other existing drugs and even simple vitamin D as the appropriate treatment.

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Old 10-06-20, 09:06 AM
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This theory is far from new. It has popped up in news stories on and off for many months now and I am certain many 'real scientists' beyond those who were part of the paper are aware. It is just one of many data analysis. There is no conspiracy!
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Old 10-06-20, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
Yeah no. There's plenty of money to be made from vaccines when governments bend over backwards to provide pharmaceutical companies with blanket exemptions from liability. Also I clearly stated that political capital was at stake as well.
Anyway I digress.
I'm not anti-vaxx, I'm pro Science. When people claim that you have to be either pro-vaccine or anti-vaccine then you know that there is no Science involved in the debate.
What Science do you have in the first place to demonstrate that a vaccine was the correct treatment regime to pursue for COVID-19?
This is the beauty of the "Bradykinin hypothesis" that I provided a link to.
Someone was doing REAL Science. They made an observation, they asked a question, they proposed a hypothesis, they tested it and then they published the results.
And because it was real Science its stands more than a reasonable chance of being ignored. I can't see a major pivot away from the pursuit of a vaccine at the moment even though the Bradykinin hypothesis is pointing towards some other existing drugs and even simple vitamin D as the appropriate treatment.
Probably because the path from this hypothesis to a viable symptomatic treatment for what is a very serious disease would be at least a decade,while they work out what existing drugs are as effective as a working vaccine.If treatment was as simple as vitamin D there would already be a recommendation, not all scientists are evil geniuses. I'm pretty sure some good medicine will come out of the bradykinnin thing, just not quickly enough to reduce the effects of a global pandemic.
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Old 10-06-20, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Trevtassie View Post
Probably because the path from this hypothesis to a viable symptomatic treatment for what is a very serious disease would be at least a decade,while they work out what existing drugs are as effective as a working vaccine.If treatment was as simple as vitamin D there would already be a recommendation, not all scientists are evil geniuses. I'm pretty sure some good medicine will come out of the bradykinnin thing, just not quickly enough to reduce the effects of a global pandemic.
Yeah no.

Vitamin D therapy already exists as a viable treatment. They even gave vitamin D to Trump for heavens sake. What the bradykinin hypothesis provides is a clear Science backed pathway as to why vitamin D therapy works and shows that it isn't just some "alternative" hocus pocus.

The inconvenient truth is that we live in a World where Faith and Pride overrule Science in a heartbeat.
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Old 10-06-20, 05:37 PM
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Originally Posted by FXjohn View Post
obese and meat eaters are most likely to die.
I've seen plenty of connections made between COVID-19 and obesity and related comorbidities -- especially diabetes, cardiovascular disease and chronic inflammation.

But I haven't seen any claims of a connection with a carnivore diet. Got any links?
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Old 10-06-20, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
Yeah no.

Vitamin D therapy already exists as a viable treatment. They even gave vitamin D to Trump for heavens sake. What the bradykinin hypothesis provides is a clear Science backed pathway as to why vitamin D therapy works and shows that it isn't just some "alternative" hocus pocus.

The inconvenient truth is that we live in a World where Faith and Pride overrule Science in a heartbeat.
Really?, all the doctors in the world have been letting people die from Covid-19 because they are too proud to admit Vitamin D will cure it? The jury is still out on Vitamin D therapy, it's at the "well it definitely can't hurt and is probably a good thing " stage of science, https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...268-0/fulltext
Is it a replacement for a vaccine?, no, because people with normal vitamin D levels still die from Covid-19.
Trump received some powerful medications and he's still not out of the woods, so it's a little early to be using him as an example.

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Old 10-06-20, 07:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Trevtassie View Post
Really?, all the doctors in the world have been letting people die from Covid-19 because they are too proud to admit Vitamin D will cure it? The jury is still out on Vitamin D therapy, it's at the "well it definitely can't hurt and is probably a good thing " stage of science, https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...268-0/fulltext
Is it a replacement for a vaccine?, no, because people with normal vitamin D levels still die from Covid-19.
Trump received some powerful medications and he's still not out of the woods, so it's a little early to be using him as an example.
I'm afraid that you seem to be lost in a delusion that most people would freely admit, post fact, to a mistake that caused the deaths of over 210,000 people in one country alone, if they learned that they had been wrong.
What Universe are you living in?
We happen to live in a Universe where as long as you don't admit that your incompetence killed over 210,000 innocent people, then no one will hold you accountable. The moment you ADMIT the mistake, you're finished.
If you don't admit anything, then you're golden and people will go on worshipping you.

It's Faith, it's Death before Dishonour, it's a whole lot of things, but its not Science.
Don't believe me? Fine, tell me, what is the Scientific Method? (yes I'm going THERE again).

Last edited by AnthonyG; 10-06-20 at 10:09 PM. Reason: Spelling police.
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Old 10-06-20, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
I'm afraid that you seem to be lost in a delusion that most people would freely admit, post fact, to a mistake that caused the deaths of over 210,000 people in one country alone, if they learned that they had been wrong.
What Universe are you living in?
We happen to live in a Universe where as long as you don't admit that your incompetence killed over 210,000 innocent people, then no one will hold you accountable. The moment you ADMIT the mistake, your finished.
If you don't admit anything, then your golden and people will go on worshipping you.

It's Faith, it's Death before Dishonour, it's a whole lot of things, but its not Science.
Don't believe me? Fine, tell me, what is the Scientific Method? (yes I'm going THERE again).
I literally have no idea what you are arguing for or against.
Does science say a vaccine for Covid-19 is a good thing?, unequivocally yes.
Does science say there are treatments other than vaccines for Covid-19?, unequivocally yes.
Are the two mutually exclusive, no.
Is throwing money at vaccines going to stop progress on other treatments, no.
Is there an Orange primate being a complete monkey about a very serious pandemic?, unequivocally yes.
Is most of the rest of the world following his example? No.
Is the rest of the world (those not run by idiots) pursuing a vaccine(s)? Yes, because scientifically and economically it's easier to stop a pandemic with a vaccine than with treatment and natural herd immunity.
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Old 10-06-20, 09:06 PM
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Let me take a different approach.
This ain't Socialism. It's commerce. Did Ford, GM and Chrysler stop making cars just because the Japanese did it better?
No they didn't.
Just because vitamin D is now proved to be better and cheaper, isn't going to stop the attempt to develop a vaccine.
If you buy the vaccine, then good for you.
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Old 10-06-20, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
Let me take a different approach.
This ain't Socialism. It's commerce. Did Ford, GM and Chrysler stop making cars just because the Japanese did it better?
No they didn't.
Just because vitamin D is now proved to be better and cheaper, isn't going to stop the attempt to develop a vaccine.
If you buy the vaccine, then good for you.
If we're going to talk about science, do you have any links to peer reviewed science that says vitamin D is the gold standard in treatment? Because what you're saying there is pretty well fitting into the pride and belief category.
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Old 10-06-20, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
I'm afraid that you seem to be lost in a delusion that most people would freely admit, post fact, to a mistake that caused the deaths of over 210,000 people in one country alone, if they learned that they had been wrong.
What Universe are you living in?
We happen to live in a Universe where as long as you don't admit that your incompetence killed over 210,000 innocent people, then no one will hold you accountable. The moment you ADMIT the mistake, your finished.
If you don't admit anything, then your golden and people will go on worshipping you.

It's Faith, it's Death before Dishonour, it's a whole lot of things, but its not Science.
Don't believe me? Fine, tell me, what is the Scientific Method? (yes I'm going THERE again).
Correction: you're finished, you're golden

You are (you're) welcome.
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Old 10-06-20, 10:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Trevtassie View Post
If we're going to talk about science, do you have any links to peer reviewed science that says vitamin D is the gold standard in treatment? Because what you're saying there is pretty well fitting into the pride and belief category.
See the link I posted above. They were hedging their bets by saying that a number of preexisting and authorised medications could be used as well as vitamin D.

OHH. And while we are at it. I would LOVE, for you to post some peer review Science showing why pursuing a vaccine is the right way to go with COVID-19. Especially in the light that a vaccine has never before worked for a coronavirus.
There are all kinds of medicines in this World for various diseases that aren't vaccines.
Where's the fundamental Science that shows that a vaccine is the right way to go now?
The embarrassing thing about the Bradykinin research is that its more or less demonstrating that a vaccine isn't the right way to go for COVID-19.

Last edited by AnthonyG; 10-07-20 at 02:56 AM.
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Old 10-06-20, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
See the link I posted above. They were hedging their bets by saying that a number of preexisting and authorised medications could be used as well as vitamin D.
No, they weren't hedging their bets, you were cherry picking the Vitamin D comment, and then magnifying it's significance to the level of a covid cure better than a vaccine which hasn't even been released yet.
There is little doubt that vitamin D is useful in vitamin D deficient people, even just because they are deficient and its good to stop that because of the other problems caused by D deficieny, but there is no evidence yet that extra vitamin D is helpful in people who already have healthy levels... it's not a magic bullet like you are implying.
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Old 10-06-20, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Trevtassie View Post
No, they weren't hedging their bets, you were cherry picking the Vitamin D comment, and then magnifying it's significance to the level of a covid cure better than a vaccine which hasn't even been released yet.
There is little doubt that vitamin D is useful in vitamin D deficient people, even just because they are deficient and its good to stop that because of the other problems caused by D deficieny, but there is no evidence yet that extra vitamin D is helpful in people who already have healthy levels... it's not a magic bullet like you are implying.
Who's talking about "extra" vitamin D? Who in this World isn't deficient in vitamin D?
Why do so many people become asymptomatic carriers of such a deadly disease?

The Bradykinin hypothesis and the vitamin D link answers SOO many questions. And you know what? That's Science for you.
A Scientific hypothesis is a tool of prediction. The best Scientific hypotheses explain everything that happened in the past, and go on to explain everything that will happen in the future and answers all the questions.
The Bradykinin hypothesis so far is a bloody good hypothesis and this well may be its downfall. It's too good.

Seriously, what evidence is there on the table so far to show that a vaccine is the right way to go with a coronavirus? Especially when vaccines have a long history of failure with coronaviruses, why is the World so invested in one working now?

Last edited by AnthonyG; 10-08-20 at 07:48 PM.
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Old 10-07-20, 01:48 AM
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Thomas Dolby - She Blinded Me With Science

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Old 10-17-20, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by AnthonyG View Post
Who's talking about "extra" vitamin D? Who in this World isn't deficient in vitamin D?
Why do so many people become asymptomatic carriers of such a deadly disease?

The Bradykinin hypothesis and the vitamin D link answers SOO many questions. And you know what? That's Science for you.
A Scientific hypothesis is a tool of prediction. The best Scientific hypotheses explain everything that happened in the past, and go on to explain everything that will happen in the future and answers all the questions.
The Bradykinin hypothesis so far is a bloody good hypothesis and this well may be its downfall. It's too good.

Seriously, what evidence is there on the table so far to show that a vaccine is the right way to go with a coronavirus? Especially when vaccines have a long history of failure with coronaviruses, why is the World so invested in one working now?

This post is ridiculous. The hypothesis NOW needs to be tested and confirmed, preferably by showing that the postulated treatments are effective. It looks like a good hypothesis and very well might be correct, but the history of science is replete with hypotheses that looked good but couldn't be confirmed.

Obviously, work on this AND vaccines will continue. An effective vaccine would be preferable to any treatment for the simple reason that never getting sick is better than having to be treated. There's no guarantee that any particular strategy will be safe and effective, so obviously a diversity of approaches is the order of the day. No one in their right mind would suggest putting all our eggs into one basket or another.
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Old 10-17-20, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
This post is ridiculous. The hypothesis NOW needs to be tested and confirmed, preferably by showing that the postulated treatments are effective. It looks like a good hypothesis and very well might be correct, but the history of science is replete with hypotheses that looked good but couldn't be confirmed.

Obviously, work on this AND vaccines will continue. An effective vaccine would be preferable to any treatment for the simple reason that never getting sick is better than having to be treated. There's no guarantee that any particular strategy will be safe and effective, so obviously a diversity of approaches is the order of the day. No one in their right mind would suggest putting all our eggs into one basket or another.
livedarklions What is the Scientific Method?
Seriously, this is the first question that needs to be asked in order to assess whether the rest of your argument is to be taken seriously.

Here, I'll make it easy for you. The Scientific Method is,
Observe
Based on the observation, ask a question
Formulate a hypothesis that answers the question that you asked
Test, to see if your hypothesis DOES answer the question that was asked
Form a conclusion
Publish your work so that it is available for free and fearless critical review by all your peers.

Now since I have just given you the answer, then at this point what I want you to do is write a reply in your own words as to what the Scientific Method is. If you want to give a different answer then this is your chance. No copy and paste.
What this now is is a test of beligerence. Any refusal to comply on your part is proof of belligerence.

So after you pass this test, and you MUST pass this test, then next question is,
What's the Scientific hypothesis behind the COVID vaccine work? The answer is, they don't have one.
AnthonyG is online now  

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