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Old 12-08-20, 11:03 AM
  #76  
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The medical experts were warning everybody this was going to happen. I think science is telling the truth....
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Old 12-08-20, 11:51 AM
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The whole world has known since February what would happen if any country that saw this disease didn't get its act together. (Wuhan) And soon after, the world saw demonstrated how to get one's act together. (China, Korea and other countries) Non of this was rocket science. Minimize chances for the virus to spread. Track the spread. Separate out those potentially infected. That this virus would spread exponentially if none of this was done was demonstrated very early.

Now there were some big setbacks that didn't need to happen. A female doctor in Germany observed asymptomatic spreading very early and tried to warn her federation and the WHO. Because she was a woman and not toeing to the "party line" of the big name doctors and researchers, her words and report were ignored. In this country, we did not ever have anybody in charge who was knowledgeable, responsible and with the contacts, resources and respect to keep this country on a coherent track. (By law, every incoming president must appoint such a person who must,again by law be briefed on resources, channels, etc, by the outgoing predecessor. That person got fired early on by his boss and not replaced. Thank you, George W Bush for instituting that law. His gift to us after his experience with Katrina. His successor relied on his appointee to manage the Ebola and SARS. And guess what? It worked out rather well. 11 US deaths.)

So asking "who'd a-thunk it?' is just proof that no did (think). At least no one in charge.
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Old 12-08-20, 12:11 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by vespasianus View Post
No, the hygiene hypothesis is that as we live in a more sterile environment now, we don't get exposed to all the pathogens that we need to at the correct time, and thus, have a neutered immune response. Basically, the more filth you live in, the better your immune response is!
That is what I meant. There is a similar hypothesis for polio. That before our environment was so sterile, infants were exposed to it when they had a natural immunity from their mothers. It wasn't until the environment was more sterile that people were more likely to be exposed at a later time in life, and suffer worse from the infection.

https://www.pbs.org/wgbh/rxforsurviv...heir%20systems.
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Old 12-08-20, 12:32 PM
  #79  
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In the meantime we can’t go out and swim in slime in hopes of catching up. So get vaccinated already, your anti posts are killing people.
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Old 12-08-20, 12:47 PM
  #80  
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How does the hygiene hypothesis account for the innumerable epidemics that have ravaged crowded slums over the centuries?
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Old 12-08-20, 01:32 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by Trakhak View Post
How does the hygiene hypothesis account for the innumerable epidemics that have ravaged crowded slums over the centuries?
It does not. This is more about general fitness. Cholera is still cholera.
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Old 12-08-20, 02:48 PM
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Trump lawyer Jenna Ellis reportedly has coronavirus, days after coming uninvited to a White House party

https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-law...172100683.html
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Old 12-09-20, 02:52 AM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by vespasianus View Post
It does not. This is more about general fitness. Cholera is still cholera.
Might help if you think of it as weeding out the weak. Rather than exposure to environmental antagonists making people stronger, it killed off the susceptible. They weren't harder, just the soft ones died early.
That being said, there is a school of thought that the cessation of exposure to TB, whether by vaccination or environmental exposure has resulted in the current auto-immune problems affecting kids. Like peanut allergies and the like. Basically the immune system is bored with not fighting off TB, and goes a little insane.
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Old 12-09-20, 06:27 AM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by Trevtassie View Post
Might help if you think of it as weeding out the weak. Rather than exposure to environmental antagonists making people stronger, it killed off the susceptible. They weren't harder, just the soft ones died early.
That being said, there is a school of thought that the cessation of exposure to TB, whether by vaccination or environmental exposure has resulted in the current auto-immune problems affecting kids. Like peanut allergies and the like. Basically the immune system is bored with not fighting off TB, and goes a little insane.
I tend to agree with you. The way the immune system works is that your B and T cells all have low affinity for a bunch of things. If they don't end up being selected and matured for a specific antigen (pathogen), they might other things to do (I very non scientific term for finding other antigens).
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Old 12-09-20, 08:44 AM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by CycleryNorth81 View Post
I see you are still sore from livedarklions beatdown.
Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Just saw this.
I am content with my view on shaming in modern culture and am not sore. Lions disagrees with me, cool. I appreciate that Lions was willing to post opinion/commentary instead of, you know, only posting some headlines.

Just because it's my name that's being invoked, I feel a need to say that I have no part in this childish cross-thread taunting and really don't appreciate CycleryNorth81 bringing me into this.

I don't have a problem with posting links to short articles without comment for people to discuss. I also don't have a problem with somebody posting they don't like that. I do have a problem with CycleryNorth81 putting my name into a "neener neener neener" retort.

I also don't like people posting links to hour-long videos or very long articles without comment, that's a homework assignment from a lazy person or more likely someone who doesn't want to own up to their own agenda, and is claiming to just put out "alternative views". It's an obvious dodge around the moderators, and I encourage people to flag those almost always conspiracy theory links when they stumble upon them.

Oh, and anti-vaxx isn't a respectable position at this point, and can only be defended by false claims that its opponents are being duped by some sort of evil cabal.
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Old 12-09-20, 08:50 AM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by vespasianus View Post
It does not. This is more about general fitness. Cholera is still cholera.

General fitness? Unless it can be shown that people who live in filthy environments have better longevity and lower morbidity than people who live in clean ones, that seems rather weak.
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Old 12-09-20, 09:01 AM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by Trevtassie View Post
Might help if you think of it as weeding out the weak. Rather than exposure to environmental antagonists making people stronger, it killed off the susceptible. They weren't harder, just the soft ones died early.
That being said, there is a school of thought that the cessation of exposure to TB, whether by vaccination or environmental exposure has resulted in the current auto-immune problems affecting kids. Like peanut allergies and the like. Basically the immune system is bored with not fighting off TB, and goes a little insane.

That literally makes no sense. The TB vaccine produces exactly the response one would expect to an exposure to TB--in other words, the immune system is doing exactly what it would do to fight off TB, so why would doing that make it "bored"?

Also, assuming there is an actual increase in auto-immune responses in modern societies, it really doesn't seem to be a lot to explain. Obviously, with the combination of mass society and/or affluence, one gets exposed to an awful lot more potential allergens, and there are a lot more novel materials encountered in a technologically advancing society.

TL/DR--you don't see as many allergic reactions to peanuts if you're not shipping peanuts everywhere and/or people aren't eating lunch together.
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Old 12-09-20, 10:29 AM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
General fitness? Unless it can be shown that people who live in filthy environments have better longevity and lower morbidity than people who live in clean ones, that seems rather weak.
Sorry, should have said immune fitness.
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Old 12-09-20, 11:09 AM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by vespasianus View Post
Sorry, should have said immune fitness.

I do think the concept is limited to particular diseases, however. If I understand it, the idea is that we get immune to the pathogen by repeated low-level exposures so that we're resistant when there's a "high level" exposure. By sterilizing the environment as much as possible, we don't have those low-level exposures, so we get diseased when we encounter the pathogen in high numbers.
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Old 12-09-20, 12:38 PM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
I do think the concept is limited to particular diseases, however. If I understand it, the idea is that we get immune to the pathogen by repeated low-level exposures so that we're resistant when there's a "high level" exposure. By sterilizing the environment as much as possible, we don't have those low-level exposures, so we get diseased when we encounter the pathogen in high numbers.
Along those lines - families that grow up on farms. Anyone who spends much time around animals sees a lot of bacteria, etc. that would make a proper suburban clean freak cringe. To hear those clean freaks talk, you would believe that no one in farm life makes it past the age of 21. Way, way too much exposure to all sorts of bad stuff. But they do. And often lead long lives little troubled by "the stuff going 'round".

Now the big stuff, the killer diseases, still have to be respected, Those with strong immune systems might fare better but to pretend they can go anywhere and do anything is asking for trouble. Really new stuff - well it is well documented that the "really new" diseases Europeans brought to the Native Americans wiped out 90% of many communities. And I suspect that overall those Native Americans had very good immune systems; probably far better than those who brought the diseases

Totally off topic - one of the most chilling blues songs I know is Otis Spann's version of "TB Blues". He recorded it in I believe 1964. Died of cancer 6 years later.. I will never know if he had a premonition when he recorded the song or was simple a blues man who knew how to sound convincing and make a buck.
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Old 12-09-20, 02:04 PM
  #91  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
That literally makes no sense. The TB vaccine produces exactly the response one would expect to an exposure to TB--in other words, the immune system is doing exactly what it would do to fight off TB, so why would doing that make it "bored"?

Also, assuming there is an actual increase in auto-immune responses in modern societies, it really doesn't seem to be a lot to explain. Obviously, with the combination of mass society and/or affluence, one gets exposed to an awful lot more potential allergens, and there are a lot more novel materials encountered in a technologically advancing society.

TL/DR--you don't see as many allergic reactions to peanuts if you're not shipping peanuts everywhere and/or people aren't eating lunch together.
Guess you miss read the first paragraph about TB. It's the lack of exposure to any TB wild or vaccine that is causing issues. There is enough research now to demonstrate that the increase in immune issues in children isn't due to environmental issues alone.
Indeed there is significant research going into TB vaccination and type 1 diabetes. Turns out that the rate of juvenile diabetes is statistically higher in communities where TB vaccination has been stopped, even correcting for other factors. (yeah, they have stopped it in some countries, no need any more, no TB). There has even been a study looking at using multiple TB vaccinations to effectively cure type 1 diabetes in adults. Study size was quite small, so they are trying to replicate it in a larger study because it worked so well. Problem is in the meantime the manufacturer of that particular vaccine strain (From memory, Sanofi) stopped making it. So they need to recommence making the vaccine before they can validate the results, not easy, as they need to replicate the same conditions and find a viable culture to start with, all of which costs a heap of money. The actual study was over 8 years, so re-starting with a different vaccine strain(s) is problematic.
Edit: There are a number of different strains of TB vaccine, being a live virus there has been significant genetic drift in the various strains as they get further away from the original culture, to the extent that there is some thought some strains are almost ineffective against "wild" TB.
Edit: 2 All the above doesn't validate the hygiene hypothesis for covid-19 and rural life, unless you are a 10th generation bat farmer. "These here are our finest milking bats, we make the best cheese in the lower 49"

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Old 12-09-20, 02:36 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by Trevtassie View Post
Guess you miss read the first paragraph about TB. It's the lack of exposure to any TB wild or vaccine that is causing issues. There is enough research now to demonstrate that the increase in immune issues in children isn't due to environmental issues alone.
Indeed there is significant research going into TB vaccination and type 1 diabetes. Turns out that the rate of juvenile diabetes is statistically higher in communities where TB vaccination has been stopped, even correcting for other factors. (yeah, they have stopped it in some countries, no need any more, no TB). There has even been a study looking at using multiple TB vaccinations to effectively cure type 1 diabetes in adults. Study size was quite small, so they are trying to replicate it in a larger study because it worked so well. Problem is in the meantime the manufacturer of that particular vaccine strain (From memory, Sanofi) stopped making it. So they need to recommence making the vaccine before they can validate the results, not easy, as they need to replicate the same conditions and find a viable culture to start with, all of which costs a heap of money. The actual study was over 8 years, so re-starting with a different vaccine strain(s) is problematic.
Edit: There are a number of different strains of TB vaccine, being a live virus there has been significant genetic drift in the various strains as they get further away from the original culture, to the extent that there is some thought some strains are almost ineffective against "wild" TB.
Edit: 2 All the above doesn't validate the hygiene hypothesis for covid-19 and rural life, unless you are a 10th generation bat farmer. "These here are our finest milking bats, we make the best cheese in the lower 49"

You're quite right, I misread what you wrote. I've read too many people making the whacky claim that vaccines weaken the immune system and read your sentence literally opposite to what you actually wrote. My bad, sorry.
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Old 12-09-20, 02:51 PM
  #93  
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Old 12-10-20, 09:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
Are you saying the vaccine is poison because it's cheaper than making a real thing? That it's not going to work at all, and people will take more coronavirus risks and get more covid?

I don't know if you've heard about this but Big Pharma likes money.

Dead people don't buy a lot of prozac and viagra and insulin and statins.
if i was saying anything it would the companies making these " vaccines " have no liability and are interwoven in even bigger companies that will cover for their mistakes , like cigarettes back the days , like oxy not to long ago , these are i think called oligarchies , and will face no punishment for their mistakes , unlike the common man , who will be pushed for the tiniest thing , its a terrible system relying on mega corps and if we dont have an alternative way we will be enslaved to their multi-dimensional control matrix ,
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Old 12-10-20, 11:01 AM
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The Keystone Light oligarchy producing cheap swill to all us peasants. Blindly follow the beer aisle to oblivion to get obliterated and cheap cold beer.
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Old 12-10-20, 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Toespeas View Post
if i was saying anything it would the companies making these " vaccines " have no liability and are interwoven in even bigger companies that will cover for their mistakes , like cigarettes back the days , like oxy not to long ago , these are i think called oligarchies , and will face no punishment for their mistakes , unlike the common man , who will be pushed for the tiniest thing , its a terrible system relying on mega corps and if we dont have an alternative way we will be enslaved to their multi-dimensional control matrix ,
The irony is that there IS an alternative way... social distancing, avoiding crowds, and wearing a mask. All these things could have reduced the virus to very limited areas... but that isn't what we did...
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Old 12-10-20, 11:23 AM
  #97  
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And?

Anything injected or otherwise consumed is going to produce some allergic reactions in someone. There are minority of people who cannot be vaccinated for many reasons, it's why herd immunity is such an important aspect of mass vaccination.
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Old 12-10-20, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by Toespeas View Post
if i was saying anything it would the companies making these " vaccines " have no liability and are interwoven in even bigger companies that will cover for their mistakes , like cigarettes back the days , like oxy not to long ago , these are i think called oligarchies , and will face no punishment for their mistakes , unlike the common man , who will be pushed for the tiniest thing , its a terrible system relying on mega corps and if we dont have an alternative way we will be enslaved to their multi-dimensional control matrix ,

Vaccines are a key element to a "multi-dimensional control matrix"?!
Don't forget the tinfoil oligarchs. It's why your headwear is so expensive.
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Old 12-10-20, 11:54 AM
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I’m protecting myself and my cats you never know...

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Old 12-10-20, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by livedarklions View Post
And?

Anything injected or otherwise consumed is going to produce some allergic reactions in someone. There are minority of people who cannot be vaccinated for many reasons, it's why herd immunity is such an important aspect of mass vaccination.
I have quite a few allergies, all over the map, and I'd be very disappointed if my low point were to be taken as a standard for everyone else's safety. That's just not a reasonable position to take. I have to think that we know who we are, as do our doctors, and are capable of figuring this out without ruining everyone else's life.
Nevertheless, I am willing to be first in line for a vaccine, regardless of my allergies, unless someone shows with high probability that my particular allergy package is going to lead to my death from the vaccine.

The people we have to be careful of are the ones who believe that they are the exception, the "Special" ones whose politics dictate their medical needs and vulnerabilities.

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