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Not wanting to get vaccinated?

 
Old 12-11-20, 12:34 AM
  #26  
alo
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
Then how do you know about them?
There is a lot of information on the internet that most people don't know about. Consider all points of view, and see what you learn.

Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
You seem to have a lot of skepticism about the vaccine, which is generally a healthy thing, but none at all about this being a conspiracy.
I think the primary motive with the vaccine is making money. If more money can be made by not being completely honest, it often happens. It depends what you mean by a conspiracy. If different groups work together to perpetuate false information, maybe it becomes a conspiracy.
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Old 12-11-20, 12:35 AM
  #27  
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Skeptical about actual lab research and methodical trials.

Credulous about rumors.

Murika.
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Old 12-11-20, 12:43 AM
  #28  
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FWIW, plan to wait awhile and read credible journals to evaluate the risks of side effects.

I'm fine with most vaccines. Had my share in the military. I get flu shots every year, pneumonia shots every few years.

But I have had bad reactions to DPT (not sure which part, haven't had a tetanus shot since I was 12 and had severe anaphylaxis; and gamma globulin in my 20s, which made me sick for months and may have contributed to my Hashimoto's auto immune disorder. Reactions to both are pretty uncommon. I just got unlucky with those.

If I was younger and needed to get back to work full time ASAP, I'd go ahead and get the vaccine. But with my age and history of reactions I need to be careful and evaluate the risks. I can continue to minimize my exposure for as long as necessary.

And I won't be consulting YouTube activists, anti-vaxxers, pop-culture alt-health gurus or anyone who lacks credentials in science and medicine for the pros and cons.
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Old 12-11-20, 01:12 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by alo View Post
There is a lot of information on the internet that most people don't know about. Consider all points of view, and see what you learn.
I have, and I learned there are a lot of people in this world who are eager to believe misinformation. I learned that lazy people like to say "big pharma is evil and greedy" because it's easier than doing actual research. I also learned that truly damning information about this finds its way to the public, it doesn't stay hidden on somebody's blog. I learned that some people feel better if they think they know something important that nobody else knows, which makes conspiracy theories very attractive to them.

Originally Posted by alo View Post
I think the primary motive with the vaccine is making money. If more money can be made by not being completely honest, it often happens. It depends what you mean by a conspiracy. If different groups work together to perpetuate false information, maybe it becomes a conspiracy.
Do you think money or maybe political power can be gained by lying to people about the dangers of a vaccine? I think that's more likely than making money by killing your customers before they can buy more of your products.
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Old 12-11-20, 04:11 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
Do you think money or maybe political power can be gained by lying to people about the dangers of a vaccine?
Yes. More money can be made by not being completely honest about the potential harmful effects of a vaccine. The more vaccines they sell, the more money they make.

Most politicians are not medical professionals, and believe what they are told. Most are trying to do the best they can. It depends on which country you are talking about.
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Old 12-11-20, 07:39 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Russ Roth View Post
I'm not convinced there's been enough long term study to determine the efficacy and safety of the virus in the longer term, there's too much pushing this through and I don't trust that things haven't been swept under the rug in a world where Trump is pushing an agenda on safety organizations and drug companies to create a miracle. Hopefully enough people will get it to make the difference but I'm going to need to hear more long term general public results before I'm willing to get it or give it to my kids.
Trump can't force this thing to come out earlier than the experts see as being a safe roll out time.

A very good video that explains the process from an actual researcher. Trump didn't factor in.



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Old 12-11-20, 08:15 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by alo View Post
A vaccine trial in Australia has been stopped, and the vaccine will not be used. It is good to see them doing the right thing, based on evidence from trials.

Not all vaccines are the same. Others will be used.
If you're talking about the CSL vaccine that has a tendency to give false-positive HIV results, then yes, Australia put a stop to that, but that has nothing to do with the mRNA vaccine being discussed here. Furthermore, Australia is still going ahead with securing a vaccine for its population, including the one being discussed here. https://fortune.com/2020/12/10/covid...lia-csl-order/

Originally Posted by alo View Post
There is a lot of information on the internet that most people don't know about. Consider all points of view, and see what you learn.



I think the primary motive with the vaccine is making money. If more money can be made by not being completely honest, it often happens. It depends what you mean by a conspiracy. If different groups work together to perpetuate false information, maybe it becomes a conspiracy.
Yes, there are tons of info out there, some good and a lot of false info. I would recommend watching the video I linked to in Post #31 above. Let me know what you find concerning in that video.

These researchers will have love ones taking the vaccine. Do you really think they're letting money cloud their judgement?

P.S. I know money is a factor in many bad things, but there are exceptions. Personally, I think the pharma companies push other drugs on us for for money at a risk to our safety. That's why I don't take any form of medication unless it's absolutely necessary, especially the OTC drugs. If I'm sore I never take NSAIDs, those things are evil. Fevers, that's just my immune system working. Vaccines on the other hand make a lot of sense to me, it's really just another way to help your immune system.
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Old 12-11-20, 08:21 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by work4bike View Post

These researchers will have love ones taking the vaccine. Do you really think they're letting money cloud their judgement?
That pretty much sums it up right there.
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Old 12-11-20, 08:28 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Bigbus View Post
Not to rain on anyone's parade, but if a vaccine is 90% effective, that only means 10 out of 100 that got it didn't get the benefit of it, not that they got the virus.
And? That still imparts 90% immunity.

Originally Posted by work4bike View Post
Trump can't force this thing to come out earlier than the experts see as being a safe roll out time.
A very good video that explains the process from an actual researcher. Trump didn't factor in.
With the anxiety of this time and the political environment that has been created, of which trump is as much a symptom as he is a cause, and the fact that drug companies are protected by federal law if they didn't get it right means they don't have to worry if there was a corner or two cut. I've watched and listened to a number of news articles on how this was put together and it doesn't make me more comfortable, and no, they're not right leaning nutbag rags either, I consider myself a centrist who predominantly uses NPR, CBS, ABC, Newsweek and occasionally more left leaning articles. In conversation with my kid's pediatrician, he was worried when I spoke to him about how fast this was pushed through, they will make recommendations when they hear from a couple other pediatric oversight groups that haven't yet offered support for this. When that time comes I'll be willing to risk it but not till then.
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Old 12-11-20, 08:38 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
I have, and I learned there are a lot of people in this world who are eager to believe misinformation. I learned that lazy people like to say "big pharma is evil and greedy" because it's easier than doing actual research. I also learned that truly damning information about this finds its way to the public, it doesn't stay hidden on somebody's blog. I learned that some people feel better if they think they know something important that nobody else knows, which makes conspiracy theories very attractive to them.
To me personally, the idea that behind the facade of excessive profits, excessive marketing spends, small R&D budgets, appropriating publicly funded research, bribing scientists and doctors, hiding research findings, getting millions of people addicted, making up diseases and disorders and excessive pricing of old medicine and letting little children die if no one comes up with the money, the pharmaceutical industry is secretely working on a better world is one the more bizarre conspiracy theories I've encountered.

As an industry it's as evil as they come. That's not the reason I won't take the vaccine though, there is a risk but I don't care that much. The reason I won't take it is because this crisis is about and the measures were about the threat of the vulnerable flooding the hospitals. With the vulnerable immune it's just another nasty disease with few victims that the hospitals can handle easily and I'm not in the vulnerable category. Here we've seen the goalpost beeing shifted, the vaccin is not seen as a means to end the state of emergency asap, but the emergency measures are seen as a means to get everybody vaccinated. I'm not buying that, let the vulnerable people get vaccinated so the crisis and the measures end. Then everything is back to normal and normally people don't get vaccinated for diseases they're not considerably at risk for.
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Old 12-11-20, 08:54 AM
  #36  
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Every time I see a commercial for a new drug and they list the side effects. I’m too lazy to type them out, so like all businesses I cheated and took a screen shot

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Old 12-11-20, 11:23 AM
  #37  
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Don't you love it when the advertisements say:

"Don't take [the drug] if you're allergic to [the drug]?"

lol ... thanks for the info.
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Old 12-11-20, 11:23 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by work4bike View Post
Trump can't force this thing to come out earlier than the experts see as being a safe roll out time.

A very good video that explains the process from an actual researcher. Trump didn't factor in.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ho2V...ture=emb_title

Excellent, thanks for that.
I fear it is a bit too long for the short attention spans on here, but it covers a lot of topics, in a balanced way. They do talk about the risks of the vaccine and of the virus.

I heard Dr. Offit in the spring, and he was asked if he would get vaccinated, should one become available. His reply was that he would want to see the data first, and he wouldn't get any vaccine until he had done his own risk analysis. As a member of the FDA advisory panel, he has seen the data, in detail. He says he will be getting the vax when it is his turn.
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Old 12-11-20, 12:13 PM
  #39  
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A week ago, the NYT ran a piece that contained an applet that would "calculate your place in line." Imperfect but interesting. (Dec. 3, Opinion. Stuart Thompson "Find your place in the vaccine line")
So, while this conversation brings a lot of points to the front, it's pretty moot for most. I'm in my mid-50's and, sadly (ha), pretty healthy. According to this, I'm behind TWO HUNDRED AND SIXTY FIVE MILLION OTHER AMERICANS. So, if I use the estimate from the White House Vax Czar, Dr. Slaoui, I probably have nine or ten months to wait for my ticket to be called (20-30mm per mo.). Yeah, here's my ticket.. it says "you are number 265,000,001, please take a seat and we will call your name." Frankly, I'm pretty psyched that 20% - 30% of the people don't want to take it. Step aside, thank you very much. Of course, I'm considering boosting my daily caloric intake to 5000kcal, mostly processed foods and refined sugar. If I can get my BMI from this lowly 22 up to maybe 32, develop diabetes and maybe hypertension, then I deserve to get it a lot sooner. Sounds like a plan.
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Old 12-11-20, 12:33 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by blacknbluebikes View Post
A week ago, the NYT ran a piece that contained an applet that would "calculate your place in line." Imperfect but interesting. (Dec. 3, Opinion. Stuart Thompson "Find your place in the vaccine line")
So, while this conversation brings a lot of points to the front, it's pretty moot for most. I'm in my mid-50's and, sadly (ha), pretty healthy. According to this, I'm behind TWO HUNDRED AND SIXTY FIVE MILLION OTHER AMERICANS. So, if I use the estimate from the White House Vax Czar, Dr. Slaoui, I probably have nine or ten months to wait for my ticket to be called (20-30mm per mo.). Yeah, here's my ticket.. it says "you are number 265,000,001, please take a seat and we will call your name." Frankly, I'm pretty psyched that 20% - 30% of the people don't want to take it. Step aside, thank you very much. Of course, I'm considering boosting my daily caloric intake to 5000kcal, mostly processed foods and refined sugar. If I can get my BMI from this lowly 22 up to maybe 32, develop diabetes and maybe hypertension, then I deserve to get it a lot sooner. Sounds like a plan.
Yikes. Found it. Me too.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...-timeline.html

What I find rather nonsensical is how someone 64 is put in the same risk category as someone 25, while someone who is 65 is deemed high risk, and will get the vaccine earlier. <headslap>

For those in the first category:

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Old 12-11-20, 01:20 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by skookum View Post
Excellent, thanks for that.
I fear it is a bit too long for the short attention spans on here, but it covers a lot of topics, in a balanced way. They do talk about the risks of the vaccine and of the virus.

I heard Dr. Offit in the spring, and he was asked if he would get vaccinated, should one become available. His reply was that he would want to see the data first, and he wouldn't get any vaccine until he had done his own risk analysis. As a member of the FDA advisory panel, he has seen the data, in detail. He says he will be getting the vax when it is his turn.
Yeah, it's only ~51-minutes long, but that is too long for many people. I imagine my 2+-hour long Regenerative Farming videos ain't got a chance in being seen
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Old 12-11-20, 11:30 PM
  #42  
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According to that risk assessment summary in the NY Times, I'm nearly at the bottom of the priority list. At 63, I'm not quite into the age risk group. I'm active, within 3-5 lbs of my optimal weight, no problems with obesity, heart disease, blood sugar disorders, etc. My asthma and allergies are reasonably well controlled with medications. I don't smoke and drink very little alcohol, maybe once a month with dinner.

While I have an autoimmune disorder, Hashimoto's is not considered higher risk for COVID (or most infections). If anything my body seems to resist infections better now than before I developed Hashimoto's. Before Hashimoto's went ballistic on my system about 20 years ago I used to catch every respiratory bug that was up for grabs, usually ending up with bronchitis and pneumonia every winter. But for most of the past 15 years, nada. Can't remember the last time I had the flu (even when I didn't bother getting flu shots, which I do now) or a bad cold. Cuts heal as quickly as when I was much younger.

There's a theory (limited scope and value so far) that some autoimmune disorders kickstart our immune systems into overdrive. So the body is constantly hyper-vigilant. Over the past couple of years my blood tests usually show elevated monocytes, and I have chronic but fairly mild upper respiratory (mostly painful sinus congestion) inflammation and muscle inflammation.

It'll be interesting to see if more research ever ascertains a connection between some types of autoimmune disorders and a quirky and dubious "benefit" of enhanced resistance to some common bacteria and viruses. Can't say I'd recommend it, however. The trade-off is feeling like cold puke most mornings and erratic energy levels. It's a crappy superpower, if it can be called that. It's almost certainly a drag on the system so I'm very careful about my diet, rest, avoiding stress, etc. I used to sleep only 3-5 hours a night, until 2018. Since then I try to get 8 hours or so, although I'm usually dozing and bored, anxious to get up after 6 hours. And I've quit trying to be an overachiever on the bicycle.
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Old 12-12-20, 07:01 AM
  #43  
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not getting.
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Old 12-12-20, 09:28 AM
  #44  
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For the last several years I've gotten the seasonal flu vaccine. For the record I'm 66. There was one year where I got both the vaccine and the flu. My symptoms that year were greatly reduced. I see no reason or risk to taking the Covid vaccine and hoping for the same level of results. I don't read any more or any less into the reason to get, or not to get this vaccine as opposed to the seasonal flu vaccine.
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Old 12-12-20, 10:13 AM
  #45  
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Your opinions on vaccines are yours and I can respect that. I used to be fairly slack about vaccines except for those required for work. That is until I got deathly ill. But I will get this vaccine for humanity because without a certain percent of vaccinations herd immunity will not be achieved, thus a never-ending saga. I believe this vaccine will be put on the required list on passports for international travel as well so some of the more "discerning" countries can open their borders a bit more.Random internet news article
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Old 12-12-20, 10:45 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by FBOATSB View Post
Your opinions on vaccines are yours and I can respect that. I used to be fairly slack about vaccines except for those required for work. That is until I got deathly ill. But I will get this vaccine for humanity because without a certain percent of vaccinations herd immunity will not be achieved, thus a never-ending saga. I believe this vaccine will be put on the required list on passports for international travel as well so some of the more "discerning" countries can open their borders a bit more.Random internet news article
I do think that's going to be one of the bigger issues/motivations regarding the vaccine. There are going to be so many companies that just couldn't sustain the litigation costs to fight the errant employee that swears they caught it at work and then passed it onto a family member that died. I'm going to err on the side of caution.
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Old 12-12-20, 09:54 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by alo View Post
We are being given a lot of false information. For example:

People who have had the vaccine can still get infected. So do you really benefit?

In some trials there have been some serious side effects, which most people don't hear about.
As far as I can tell, the side effects have largely been published. The worst being some significant malaise for a day or so following the vaccine. And, often worse with the second dose.

Perhaps that is one issue that more time would have allowed better adjustments to the dosing schedule. So, perhaps full dose for the first shot, and a half dose for the second.

This also brings up one additional issue is that one should carefully review the people who were EXCLUDED from the trials including pregnant women, nursing women, and apparently those with severe allergies including anaphylaxis to prior vaccines. Ages?

Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
FWIW, plan to wait awhile and read credible journals to evaluate the risks of side effects.

I'm fine with most vaccines. Had my share in the military. I get flu shots every year, pneumonia shots every few years.

But I have had bad reactions to DPT (not sure which part, haven't had a tetanus shot since I was 12 and had severe anaphylaxis; and gamma globulin in my 20s, which made me sick for months and may have contributed to my Hashimoto's auto immune disorder. Reactions to both are pretty uncommon. I just got unlucky with those.
The British reports include 2 individuals who developed anaphylaxis after dosing with the COVID vaccine. Apparently they had excluded individuals with severe allergies from the studies. That would be a reason for a person that had a past allergy to wait a little bit before rushing out to get the vaccine. And when you do get it, get it done in a doctor's office or hospital clinic rather than at a pharmacy. Tell them you need to be watched, and stick around for an hour or so after dosing.

And, review COVID during pregnancy and balance it with not having tested the vaccine with pregnant women (or very few).

Originally Posted by Russ Roth View Post
I'm not convinced there's been enough long term study to determine the efficacy and safety of the virus in the longer term...
Safety of the VIRUS? Well, we know that nearly 300,000 Americans are dead, and a somewhat large group are also suffering from extended symptoms.

As far as the vaccine, as mentioned, it has been tested in over 30,000 people, and is now being rolled out in the UK. Lots of short-term annoyance, especially with the second dose, but less evidence of a long-term issues other than 2 cases of anaphylaxis so far as mentioned above. Both individuals recovered.

Originally Posted by alo View Post
How do you define 90-95% effective?

The trials have been done in too little time to know.
As mentioned above, it is a simple calculation of placebo vs vaccine. More data would be needed to look at mortality, and at risk populations.

Unfortunately, what we don't know is whether the effectiveness will diminish over time. We do expect a slow evolution of the spike protein that is being targeted by the vaccine.

We do need to carefully analyze the illness in vaccinated individuals. Some studies had indicated severe infections in some individuals who had gotten the disease twice. So, if a half dozen vaccinated individuals (per trial) have gotten the disease, how did it affect them? More or less severe than would otherwise be expected by their physical characteristics?

=============

With any viral infection, there is the all important R-Number of the virus. One shouldn't necessarily consider it a constant, but variable depending on a variety of things including weather outside, and social interactions.

It also depends on the number of susceptible individuals.

Even if the vaccine is only 50% effective, if enough people are vaccinated, then it may be enough to push that R-Number to below 1, and the virus will die back. If it remains greater than 1, the virus will continue to spread and grow, with increasing numbers every generation.

So, the more people getting the vaccine, and the higher the effectiveness of the vaccine, the better for everyone. If you are in the unlucky 5% to 10% that is susceptible post vaccine, then push the R-Number down by lots of people getting vaccinated, or social distancing, and your overall risk decreases.

Last edited by CliffordK; 12-12-20 at 10:22 PM.
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Old 12-12-20, 11:51 PM
  #48  
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Yup

Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
I'd like to comment on this, I hope you don't mind.

You can still die in a car accident if you wear a seatbelt. Do you really benefit from them? Yes, because they'll save your life in most accidents that would have killed you without one. There can be side effects, the seatbelt can break your rib and puncture your lung. Ask me how I know. But an impact like that would have killed you without one. As far as the vaccine goes, we don't know if you can get sick afterwards or not, or how long after. But we do know that if you can get sick after the vaccination it will be much less so than without the vax. Because the vax teaches your body to recognize the virus, so it can get to the work of healing you faster. There is every reason to think you will be less able/likely to infect others even if you get sick after being vaccinated for the same reason.
yes , a cop at an auto show demonstrated you can get seriously injured by the belt if you wear a winter coat and the belt usually sits up by your stomach. The belt needs to be on your hips and top belt across shoulder , not your neck. Check this on shorter people or children. ,

--Covid, , 99.8% will recover , but they shut down the economy and want a vaccine ????
I personally think Covid panic is a symptom that we won't admit our mass production/ mass consumption/ mass pollution economy is a failure and based on debt and can not continue ,,, why ,,, because earth's economy will crash ....soon... So in turn we are going to blame the crash of our failed economic model on a virus, rather than admit we have been going in the wrong direction for the last couple hundred years or so.
The economy of money , will be the least of our worries, try keeping up a production level of millions of cars needing to be sold yet no regard for the pollution their manufacture and their operation produce. . what about the airline industry , 35,000 gallons of fuel to fly across an ocean. ??? Freak out on that fun fact. Maybe I'm just a doomsday alarmist ... ?

Last edited by rossiny; 12-13-20 at 12:17 AM.
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Old 12-13-20, 05:04 AM
  #49  
alo
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Originally Posted by rossiny View Post
--Covid, , 99.8% will recover , but they shut down the economy and want a vaccine ????
I personally think Covid panic is a symptom that we won't admit our mass production/ mass consumption/ mass pollution economy is a failure and based on debt and can not continue ,,, why ,,, because earth's economy will crash ....soon... So in turn we are going to blame the crash of our failed economic model on a virus, rather than admit we have been going in the wrong direction for the last couple hundred years or so.
The economy of money , will be the least of our worries, try keeping up a production level of millions of cars needing to be sold yet no regard for the pollution their manufacture and their operation produce. . what about the airline industry , 35,000 gallons of fuel to fly across an ocean. ??? Freak out on that fun fact. Maybe I'm just a doomsday alarmist ... ?
I wouldn't have said it exactly like that, but you have a better idea of what is really going on than most people. Many people believe the propaganda, rather than consider the hidden agenda.
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Old 12-13-20, 09:57 AM
  #50  
skookum
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Even if 99.7% recover, there are a large number that have significant long term problems. It is much worse than something like flu in that instance.
If it spreads so fast that hospitals are overwhelmed, which seems to be the case now, that obviously causes huge problems, not just mortality from the virus itself, but mortality from other causes that go untreated because there is no hospital capacity. There is also a huge economic cost to having that much sickness and death in the community

I would concur that lockdowns are not a great solution, but in some places anyway, it seems the only solution that is left.
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