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Build Advice & Cielo Cross Classic

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Cyclocross and Gravelbiking (Recreational) This has to be the most physically intense sport ever invented. It's high speed bicycle racing on a short off road course or riding the off pavement rides on gravel like : "Unbound Gravel". We also have a dedicated Racing forum for the Cyclocross Hard Core Racers.

Build Advice & Cielo Cross Classic

Old 12-07-15, 02:21 PM
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succurre
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Build Advice & Cielo Cross Classic

I'm in the planning stage of my next build and I am hoping to receive your advice in order to achieve a harmonious result.

FRAMESET

The frame (and fork) that has caught my eye is the Cielo Cross Classic and I don't recall seeing a production frame that is more beautiful. However, the cost seems quite steep, especially considering the Canadian dollar has been devalued considerably in recent years. Fender eyelets are nice for all-weather riding.


CRANKS

Because I use 180 mm cranks, I imagine that my main options are Dura-Ace and Record. Out of these two, Dura-Ace might be better, and for less cost. The FSA/SRAM/Race Face/etc. stuff doesn't really appeal to me.


SHIFTING CONSIDERATIONS

One thing that I would like to avoid is the cable loop that feeds into the rear derailleur. On my old MTB, I had SRAM X.0 rear derailleur and the direct-cable routing had a very tidy appearance. Campagnolo doesn't seem to be an option for direct-cable routing and SRAM is not under consideration, so I guess that that leaves me with Shimano. I happen to have a XTR 972 GS Shadow rear derailleur that has the direct-cable routing, but it looks like the cable wants to feed in from the seatstay, rather than the chainstay. So that may not be ideal for the Cielo Cross Classic. I also have the matching XTR 970 9-speed rapid-fire shifter that would allow me to run a 1x9 setup, but that would mean using a flat handlebar. I am not opposed to using a flat bar, because a narrow one (i.e., about 520 mm) can still look good, but you can obviously achieve a more efficient position with drop bars. From what I have read, the XTR 972 Shadow 9-speed rear derailleur is perfectly compatible with the Dura-Ace 10-speed STI levers. Can anyone confirm this? That would let me run a 2x10 setup, I presume.


WHEELS

For hubs, I am considering Chris King, DT Swiss, and Tune. I have owned a Tune Mag200 and a DT Swiss Hugi and they were both nice. I have no experience with King. Tune is the lightest of the three and looks great, but I imagine that King and DT Swiss hubs are more dependable concerning their drive designs. DT Swiss is lighter, with lower resistance, and requires less maintenance that King, but King is more aesthetically pleasing, probably builds a stiffer wheel, and has better engagement.

I really need some help in deciding which rims. I would like to use the Schwalbe Marathon Supreme (35C or 40C) tubeless tires, so what are some good tubeless rim options that don't require rim strips/tape? Are there any tubeless rims that have a ceramic braking surface? A tubeless setup is not obligatory, since Michelin latex tubes are pretty good, but I do feel that a tubeless setup is superior in terms of performance and comfort.
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Old 12-07-15, 05:42 PM
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Have you seen a Cielo in person? They are stunning. I would never buy one as a CX bike because it's too beautiful to be treated the way a CX bike should be treated, but it sounds like you plan to use the bike you're building mostly for pavement, right?

The problem with direct cable routing on the rear derailleur is that it means you need a barrel adjuster somewhere else. With MTB that's no big deal because the shifters have an integrated barrel adjuster. With drop bars, levers that run the shift cable under the bar tape and a top tube routed shift cable you'd need an inline adjuster somewhere and that sacrifices some degree of functionality for a minor aesthetic gain.

I have no direct experience with tubeless setups, but it is my understanding that all tubeless setups require rim tape (as do tubes, for that matter). The key is to get a rim that is designed for your intended tubeless application. Mountain bike tubeless standards are designed for low pressure. There is a distinctly different standard for road tubeless. I'm not sure which you'd be targeting with the tubeless Marathon Supremes -- probably somewhere in between in terms of pressure -- so I don't know what would work best. Some e-mails to Schwalbe and any rim manufacturer you're considering would probably be in order.
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Old 12-08-15, 10:44 AM
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I haven't seen a Cielo in person, although they certainly present beautifully in internet photos. I haven't really been following the cycling scene for the last several years, so I am not up-to-date on what is available. I only found out that Chris King produces frames a few days ago. Mostly, I am looking to build a bike for the pothole-laden and glass-infested roads of Toronto, although it should be able to handle easy trails.

You raise an important point regarding the barrel adjusters, although it seems that the Cielo Cross Classic was designed to accommodate them on the downtube?
Cielo Cross Classic | Cycle EXIF

Either way, it seems that there are all kinds of inline adjuster options. Could you elaborate on how some degree of functionality would be sacrificed by using them?

Yes, I'll have to enquire with Schwalbe. I guess that there are no tubeless rims with a ceramic braking surface, though?
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Old 12-08-15, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by succurre View Post
You raise an important point regarding the barrel adjusters, although it seems that the Cielo Cross Classic was designed to accommodate them on the downtube?

Either way, it seems that there are all kinds of inline adjuster options. Could you elaborate on how some degree of functionality would be sacrificed by using them?
Right, having barrel adjusters on the down tube is common, but doesn't mix with the direct RD cable routing you want. The idea behind the downtube mounted barrel adjusters is that they let you fine tune your shifting while you're riding. You can also do that with inline adjusters that mount directly at the point where the shift cable exits the side of the lever on older Shimano brifters that don't route the shift cable under the bar tape. The other type of inline adjuster, the ones designed to be placed at an arbitrary place in the middle of a cable, don't work nearly as well. Because you have free hanging cable on either side of the adjuster, the cable tends to twist when you try to turn the adjuster, making it fairly tricky to operate with one hand. Even when you're stopped and off the bike this type of adjuster tends not to work as smoothly as barrel adjusters mounted to a fixed object (like the derailleur, the shifter or a downtube boss). Plus, they're ugly.

I couldn't tell you about tubeless rims with a ceramic braking surface. Have you considered disc brakes?

Finally, since you say you're in Toronto I have to ask, have you considered theft? I would be very nervous owning a Cielo in Toronto.
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Old 12-08-15, 12:31 PM
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Cielo* is the Frame that Chris King makes the component manufacturing has become the Big business..

You could come to Portland when Its Done , get it Dirty and then may pass as a Used Bike
and get a less Import Tax cost border crossing back into Canada.

You can say what cable routing You Want and as A Custom Frame They will do That, I Suppose , If you have a good reason..

Top tube to seat stay RD cable routing is Classic Cross ..

Triple housing TT housing stops, and the hand grip on the down tube can be cable free.



*I would have hoped it was named Named after Celilo Falls on the Ancient Columbia River, that was submerged by the Dalles Dam

But the spelling is off .. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celilo_Falls

Last edited by fietsbob; 12-08-15 at 12:44 PM.
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Old 12-08-15, 01:42 PM
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I have a direct mount RD on my gravel bike (Shimano XT 9-speed shadow). The only adjustment for the RD I have are Shimano CS50 adjusters on the downtube cable stops. The setup works flawlessly with 10-speed STI shifters. I have ran the bike this way for several years. You can absolutely get away with the direct-mount RD, STI levers with drop bars, and the downtube adjusters only - without any kind of adjustment at the actual RD.
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Old 12-08-15, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
Right, having barrel adjusters on the down tube is common, but doesn't mix with the direct RD cable routing you want. The idea behind the downtube mounted barrel adjusters is that they let you fine tune your shifting while you're riding. You can also do that with inline adjusters that mount directly at the point where the shift cable exits the side of the lever on older Shimano brifters that don't route the shift cable under the bar tape. The other type of inline adjuster, the ones designed to be placed at an arbitrary place in the middle of a cable, don't work nearly as well. Because you have free hanging cable on either side of the adjuster, the cable tends to twist when you try to turn the adjuster, making it fairly tricky to operate with one hand. Even when you're stopped and off the bike this type of adjuster tends not to work as smoothly as barrel adjusters mounted to a fixed object (like the derailleur, the shifter or a downtube boss). Plus, they're ugly.

I couldn't tell you about tubeless rims with a ceramic braking surface. Have you considered disc brakes?

Finally, since you say you're in Toronto I have to ask, have you considered theft? I would be very nervous owning a Cielo in Toronto.
Thanks for explaining. I understood everything except the first sentence. Are you affirming what I mentioned in my first post; that for direct cable routing, the rear derailleur needs to receive from along the seatstay, rather than the chainstay?

Even though I have never had them, I am not opposed to disc brakes; although a disc wheel is less stiff, all else being equal. Then we kind of need to look at wider, through-axle hubs. However, if I do opt for disc brakes, with the Shimano 10-speed STI levers, can I choose any mechanical disc brake? Then, I would need to consider something other than a Cielo Cross Classic, would I not?

Speaking of theft, my bike of over twenty years was stolen a couple of weeks ago. It's the last thing that I needed right now. I am thinking that I will have to incorporate some sort of GPS tracking device into whatever I build. It seems that bike security is becoming far more sophisticated these days.
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Old 12-08-15, 08:01 PM
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fietsbob, I presume that you know that Cielo is the Spanish word for Heaven?

I'm not going to suggest that toptube to seatstay RD cable routing is not "Classic Cross", but Chris King didn't seem to think so for his Cielo Cross Classic.
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Old 12-08-15, 08:03 PM
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Originally Posted by DirtRoadRunner View Post
I have a direct mount RD on my gravel bike (Shimano XT 9-speed shadow). The only adjustment for the RD I have are Shimano CS50 adjusters on the downtube cable stops. The setup works flawlessly with 10-speed STI shifters. I have ran the bike this way for several years. You can absolutely get away with the direct-mount RD, STI levers with drop bars, and the downtube adjusters only - without any kind of adjustment at the actual RD.
Thanks for sharing your positive experiences with this setup. Would you care to show some photos of the rear derailleur and any other areas of your bike?
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Old 12-08-15, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by succurre View Post
Thanks for explaining. I understood everything except the first sentence. Are you affirming what I mentioned in my first post; that for direct cable routing, the rear derailleur needs to receive from along the seatstay, rather than the chainstay?
The derailleur you mentioned in your first post appears to have very similar routing to the XT M772 SGS I have on my bike, and it works fine with a chainstay-routed shift cable, 10-speed 11-36 cassette, and 10-speed 105 5700 STI shifters. The direct mount is definitely cleaner than older non-Shadow RD's as the loop is not needed.

It works so well in fact that I almost never have to tweak cable adjustment at all - the combo has proven bulletproof and needs very little maintenance.
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Old 12-09-15, 12:30 AM
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I agree that a shadow derailleur will work with a downtube/chainstay routed shift cable, and it will have less of a loop than a traditional derailleur, just not quite as clean as the shadow derailleur with top tube/seat stay cable routing, which I took to be your goal.
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Old 12-09-15, 12:43 AM
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FWIW, I used to have a shadow derailleur on a Marin Muirwoods 29er, which routed the shift cable along the chainstays. Here's a pic:



Now that I look at it, it's not near as bad as I remembered it. Here's the same derailleur on a Kona Muni Mula mountain bike with seatstay routing.



Pretty similar actually.
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Old 12-09-15, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by succurre View Post
Thanks for sharing your positive experiences with this setup. Would you care to show some photos of the rear derailleur and any other areas of your bike?
I'll snap some pics tonight. It is virtually identical to the pics that Andy_K posted (same RD, though mine is a short cage). You'll really be happy with that setup and 10-speed STI levers with a double. Also, even though my RD is only rated to a maximum 34t cog, it has no problem working with a 36t cog - which is a lifesaver on the steep hills around here.
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Old 12-10-15, 11:05 AM
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As requested, photos of the RD cable routing and setup, Shimano downtube cable adjusters (used for both FD and RD, and the only adjustment I have for either), and I also threw in one of my Sugino OX801D crankset that I love showing off - the 30t granny ring makes spinning up steep hills at 4 mph a breeze and has kept me from walking many times.


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Old 12-10-15, 05:21 PM
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still say You want different? ask .. its not an Import, They make the frames in Portland.
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Old 12-10-15, 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
FWIW, I used to have a shadow derailleur on a Marin Muirwoods 29er, which routed the shift cable along the chainstays. Here's a pic:



Now that I look at it, it's not near as bad as I remembered it. Here's the same derailleur on a Kona Muni Mula mountain bike with seatstay routing.



Pretty similar actually.
Thanks for sharing. It seems fine.
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Old 12-10-15, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by DirtRoadRunner View Post
As requested, photos of the RD cable routing and setup, Shimano downtube cable adjusters (used for both FD and RD, and the only adjustment I have for either), and I also threw in one of my Sugino OX801D crankset that I love showing off - the 30t granny ring makes spinning up steep hills at 4 mph a breeze and has kept me from walking many times.


Thanks for sharing. That routing doesn't look bad at all.

I've had Sugino chainrings before. I didn't know that they still make cranks. How's the shifting with a 16T difference?
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Old 12-10-15, 11:20 PM
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fietsbob, if I decide to go with a Cielo, I would most likely need to find a used one. At this moment in my life, I cannot afford a new, semi-custom Cielo.
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Old 12-11-15, 09:04 AM
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It shifts fine with a Shimano CX-70 FD - just as good as a normal road crank. The jump is the same as a 50-34t compact road crankset. Shifting isn't quite as good as a 46-36 'cross crank, but I only really use the 30t granny below ~10 mph, so I have to shift very little.
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