Cyclocross and Gravelbiking (Recreational) This has to be the most physically intense sport ever invented. It's high speed bicycle racing on a short off road course or riding the off pavement rides on gravel like :The Dirty Kanza". We also have a dedicated Racing forum for the Cyclocross Hard Core Racers.

New Shimano 11-46 Cassette?

Old 03-02-16, 04:21 PM
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Lars Halstrom
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New Shimano 11-46 Cassette?

Will X1 or X2 Gravel bikes go for this? For me, climbing is more important than pedaling downhill at high speeds. I wonder what rear derailleurs will be compatible?

Last edited by Lars Halstrom; 03-02-16 at 04:22 PM. Reason: add X2
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Old 03-02-16, 04:40 PM
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Shimano hasn't created a brifter for their wide-range 1x system yet. XT and XTR will have compatible derailleurs and shifters, but not for drop bars.

SRAM is kicking butt in 1x right now, Shimano is playing catch-up.

However, SRAM needs to clarify if any of its 1x11 wide-range RDs work with 11s brifters. Their 10s stuff was cross compatible from road to MTB, but most of their 11s stuff is not.
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Old 03-02-16, 04:54 PM
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I don't understand what everybody has against front derailleurs.
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Old 03-02-16, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Tim_Iowa View Post
SRAM is kicking butt in 1x right now, Shimano is playing catch-up.
I figure Shimano is doing what it wants. They could have made brifters with MTB pull at any time since they changed the pull ratio, it's not like there's insurmountable technological obstacles.

SRAM doesn't advertise cross-compatibility of its mtb and road groups because they want you to buy the new 1x road groups with in-group right brifter and left brake lever.
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Old 03-02-16, 05:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
I figure Shimano is doing what it wants. They could have made brifters with MTB pull at any time since they changed the pull ratio, it's not like there's insurmountable technological obstacles.

SRAM doesn't advertise cross-compatibility of its mtb and road groups because they want you to buy the new 1x road groups with in-group right brifter and left brake lever.
Correct, Shimano could make its parts cross-compatible at any time. It bothers me that they don't. They've gone further from cross-compatibility with each new generation.

I did some research and it looks like SRAM's stuff was only cross-compatible with 10 speeds. Their 11 speed road stuff still uses the same cable pull ratio as 10 speed ("Exact Actuation" standard), whereas their 11 speed MTB stuff uses a new cable pull ratio ("X-actuation").

However, SRAM has made long-cage versions of its 1x11 road derailleurs that can handle the 10-42 cassette, so there really isn't a need to mix-and-match any more.
You can get a 1x11 wide-range system with brifters and a road RD, or with flat-bar controls and a MTB RD.
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Old 03-02-16, 05:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
I don't understand what everybody has against front derailleurs.
I know that 1x systems are really popular in Fat and "Plus" (near-fat) bikes, because FDs get covered in crud from the huge tires and then stop working. Cyclocross bikes, for the same reason (and they had close-range 36/46 cranks to begin with, so they just split the difference with a ~40t single ring).

So, SRAM (and others like Wolftooth) came up with the idea of a 1x wide-range system using massive cogs.

And now other people who just plain don't know how to shift an FD are getting on the 1x bandwagon. (my opinion)

Personally, I prefer a subcompact double (46/30, for example) with a reasonable cassette (11-28 or 11-32, for example). Similar gear range, lower weight, closer ratios.
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Old 03-02-16, 05:14 PM
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Gevenalle makes a shifter that is compatible with Shimano mountain bike derailleurs.

If Shimano doesn't converge with Di2 then they're just being obstinate.
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Old 03-02-16, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Tim_Iowa View Post
I know that 1x systems are really popular in Fat and "Plus" (near-fat) bikes, because FDs get covered in crud from the huge tires and then stop working. Cyclocross bikes, for the same reason (and they had close-range 36/46 cranks to begin with, so they just split the difference with a ~40t single ring).


There's a single chainring and a jump stop under there somewhere. I've switched back to 2x since then. One of the reasons was that in thick mud like this you have to take extreme measures to keep from losing your chain. Wolf Tooth recommends using a chain guide with their rings in "super nasty mud". For me, when it gets this bad I'm not likely to be shifting much anyway. When it isn't this bad having two chainrings is nice.

I agree with you on a sub-compact for non-racing applications. I wish someone would jump on that the way SRAM has jumped on 1x. I know Sugino makes cranksets like that, but they're too expensive and availability is terrible. The chainline is all wrong with MTB doubles, IMO.

I've got my commuter set up 2x11 right now with a 39-30 double. I just replaced my big ring with a bashguard. It shifts flawlessly in both directions.
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Old 03-02-16, 05:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post

Ahhh...camouflage to discourage bike thieves!
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Old 03-02-16, 07:31 PM
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1x should get a lot more common now that SRAM just introduced their Apex budget level 1x groupset. A 38 or 40t chain ring and a 10-42 cassette is all the gearing most commuters or recreational riders will ever need.
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Old 03-02-16, 08:25 PM
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Thism morning I mentioned the new 11-46 Shimano cassette to the guys at the bike shop where I work part time. We immediately began to dream up ways to take this to ridiculous extremes like running it with Shimano's triple front cranks and a SRAM dual drive hub to make a bike with enough gears to climb a vertical wall and then pedal while riding back down.
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Old 03-02-16, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by KonaRider125 View Post
1x should get a lot more common now that SRAM just introduced their Apex budget level 1x groupset. A 38 or 40t chain ring and a 10-42 cassette is all the gearing most commuters or recreational riders will ever need.
A 50-39-30 crankset with a 12-28 cassette is also all the gearing most commuters or recreational riders will ever need. It's possible to build a 1x setup with an equivalent gear range, but I have yet to be convinced that it's better.

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Old 03-02-16, 08:52 PM
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I agree, that's the best setup. People are asking me advice about 1x11 and I tell them it's OK for the dirt but too big of gaps for the road. 50/39/30 vs. 50/34, the shift from 50 to 39 is way better than from 50 to 34 but you still have the 30 for low gears. I think people are very attracted to 1x11 for the novelty and some even think the weight savings is going to unleash their climbing prowess. : ))

Originally Posted by Andy_K View Post
A 50-39-30 crankset with a 12-28 cassette is also all the gearing most commuters or recreational riders will ever need. It's possible to build a 1x setup with an equivalent gear range, but I have yet to be convinced that it's better.

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Old 03-03-16, 06:42 AM
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It looks like the 1x11 has a much better spread with few overlaps
Attached Images
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1x11 vs triple w 12x28.jpg (87.7 KB, 205 views)
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Old 03-03-16, 10:17 AM
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Another 1X feature is added chain clearance for wide tires. In many cases chain clearance can be achieved for up to 3 inch tire without going to wide BB (73, +) and/or boost, 150, or 157 rear spacing. A long RD cage necessary for greater chain wrap capacity with 2&3X rings plus wide range cassette, pulls a greater distance forward than a short/mid cage 1X, which reduces tire clearance further at the lower chain-line.

I like my 2X and I like high volume/low pressure tires. To clear a 64mm tire from lower chain-line on my current frame, the plan is to remove a middle sprocket from a 10 speed cassette to convert to a 9 sprocket cassette, thereby moving the lowest gear to the left 4mm. If that doesn't provide adequate chain clearance, then I'll remove another middle sprocket to become an 8, If a 2 sprocket reduction fails, I'll convert to 1X for a clearance fix I know will work with all 10 or 11 cassette sprockets.

Last edited by Werkin; 03-03-16 at 12:31 PM.
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Old 03-03-16, 10:37 AM
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Originally Posted by bwilli88 View Post
It looks like the 1x11 has a much better spread with few overlaps
I was thinking 3x10, not 3x5.
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Old 03-03-16, 10:46 AM
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Front derailleurs are terrible and I won't be sad to see them go. I'm a believer. However my current crop of bikes is functional and affordable and so I don't guess I'll get to try 1x any time soon unless I get a really major drivetrain failure.
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Old 03-03-16, 12:40 PM
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Originally Posted by KonaRider125 View Post
1x should get a lot more common now that SRAM just introduced their Apex budget level 1x groupset. A 38 or 40t chain ring and a 10-42 cassette is all the gearing most commuters or recreational riders will ever need.
Unless you want to climb a hill with a gear lower than 1:1, or you want a closer range rear cassette. Try pricing out one of the mid to upper priced cassettes, $ 3-500. Yikes. I have a sram 1x11 on the fat bike, works fine for mt biking. The rear gaps on the cassette would seem to be large for cross, road or commuting.
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Old 03-03-16, 04:18 PM
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My 29+ has a 100mm BB shell and 135/170mm hub spacing. It's 2x10 but there is plenty of clearance for a triple which I might do. I've not found any disadvantage for not having standard spacings. OTOH, having to run a single chainring to clear a 3" tire is a big disadvantage.

Originally Posted by Werkin View Post
Another 1X feature is added chain clearance for wide tires. In many cases chain clearance can be achieved for up to 3 inch tire without going to wide BB (73, +) and/or boost, 150, or 157 rear spacing. A long RD cage necessary for greater chain wrap capacity with 2&3X rings plus wide range cassette, pulls a greater distance forward than a short/mid cage 1X, which reduces tire clearance further at the lower chain-line.

I like my 2X and I like high volume/low pressure tires. To clear a 64mm tire from lower chain-line on my current frame, the plan is to remove a middle sprocket from a 10 speed cassette to convert to a 9 sprocket cassette, thereby moving the lowest gear to the left 4mm. If that doesn't provide adequate chain clearance, then I'll remove another middle sprocket to become an 8, If a 2 sprocket reduction fails, I'll convert to 1X for a clearance fix I know will work with all 10 or 11 cassette sprockets.
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Old 03-03-16, 05:58 PM
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You have a 100mm BB shell GeoKrpan, my post was about chain contact with a wide tire on a 68mm BB, which is narrower than 73mm or larger.
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Old 03-04-16, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Leebo View Post
Unless you want to climb a hill with a gear lower than 1:1, or you want a closer range rear cassette. Try pricing out one of the mid to upper priced cassettes, $ 3-500. Yikes. I have a sram 1x11 on the fat bike, works fine for mt biking. The rear gaps on the cassette would seem to be large for cross, road or commuting.
wide range 11 speed cassettes were very expensive but recently they have dropped to more reasonable prices.
Shimano and SRAM both have 11-42 cassettes that fit standard freehub bodies and the new GX full pin 10-42 is just a little over $100 USD.
If you want lower than 1:1 get a smaller chainring
The cassette spacing is a problem for some people but many riders would not miss it. I find myself changing 2 gears at a time much more often than I have ever felt I needed a gear between 2 that I currently have.
It may not be for everyone but I like it.
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Old 03-04-16, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by CBBaron View Post
wide range 11 speed cassettes were very expensive but recently they have dropped to more reasonable prices.
Shimano and SRAM both have 11-42 cassettes that fit standard freehub bodies and the new GX full pin 10-42 is just a little over $100 USD.
If you want lower than 1:1 get a smaller chainring
The cassette spacing is a problem for some people but many riders would not miss it. I find myself changing 2 gears at a time much more often than I have ever felt I needed a gear between 2 that I currently have.
It may not be for everyone but I like it.
You're not going fast enough. When wind resistance becomes much more of a problem you'd welcome the more closely spaced gears. Because of this, I think 1x setups are only suitable for generally slower speed setups (MTB, Fat, cyclocross, basically anything but road.)

Personally I don't have trouble with chainrings so I'm not going to be jumping on the bandwagon anytime soon. Besides, I've seen a few people come into the COOP with chain drop problems on their 1x setups. They needed chain guides eventually, but I don't see the advantage to a 1x setup when you need a derailleur like object just to keep the chain on the front chainring anyway...
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Old 03-04-16, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by CBBaron View Post
wide range 11 speed cassettes were very expensive but recently they have dropped to more reasonable prices.
Shimano and SRAM both have 11-42 cassettes that fit standard freehub bodies and the new GX full pin 10-42 is just a little over $100 USD.
If you want lower than 1:1 get a smaller chainring
The cassette spacing is a problem for some people but many riders would not miss it. I find myself changing 2 gears at a time much more often than I have ever felt I needed a gear between 2 that I currently have.
It may not be for everyone but I like it.
YRMV. The cheap big cassettes are like boat anchors. Like I said, works well for mt bike and fat bike. Not road or commute( for me) where you are trying to get a smoother cadence with a closer spaced cassette. It may be a good fit for some, not for me right now.
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Old 03-04-16, 11:22 AM
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1x is a matter of priorities. For my cross bike, I prioritize a working drivetrain when it gets really muddy. Like Andy_K's photos up there. Turns out that adding a wider range cassette (went from 12-28 to 11-36) really expanded my ability/desire to use the bike outside of just racing, and I already used this bike a lot. Those larger gaps don't bother me, you just pedal faster or pedal harder to get the desired speed, sort of like how you do it with a 2x. And it looks tough too.

For those dogging it, you either haven't tried it or are doing wrong.
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Old 03-04-16, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by justin1138 View Post
For those dogging it, you either haven't tried it or are doing wrong.
I have CX bike that I've ridden 1x10 (with an 11-32) and 2x10 (with a 12-26). I find that in fast road rides, I'm significantly faster on the double where I can keep my cadence in a tight range at any speed. Mash harder/spin faster means I'm wasting energy that the people around me aren't (which some would argue is "doing it wrong").

Now, on the CX course, 1x is great. I find the course changes too quickly for fine gear selection and being able to make big jumps with just a few shifts means shorter distraction. And for solo riding I have no problem with 1x since I can just avoid riding in the "gaps". But saying everyone should love 1x is as wrong as saying everyone should love triples.
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