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Let's talk 1 bike to rule them all and geometry

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Let's talk 1 bike to rule them all and geometry

Old 07-19-17, 09:31 PM
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Let's talk 1 bike to rule them all and geometry

So I've been riding my SuperSix and my Tamland a lot lately, sometimes back-to-back on the same routes. Same gravel, same pavement, same climbs. And one thing I've noticed.. I REALLY like riding my Supersix. I guess it was my first cycling love but I just love how fast it is, how nimble it is, how much lighter it is, and how much of a better climber it is. I like riding the Tamland too but it's heavy and it just feels dull. Of course it's not a bad thing to have a pure gravel bike that mutes the gravel like it does. However, I keep finding myself thinking I would really like to ride a cross bike on the gravel but I'm not sure I want the typical steep geo of a cross bike. But if you've been following the trends lately companies are starting to slacken their cross bikes a little, add more tire clearance and generally place them in between a road bike and gravel bike. So what bikes are out there that I might be missing?

What I want in a one quiver bike: discs, three bottle mounts (or more), no funky proprietary crap, at least 40mm tire clearance, slacker HTA and longer wheelbase than my SuperSix but less than my Tamland. Basically if my two bikes would just have a baby I'd be good to go lol. Also, preferably not a Specialized (ugh, the Specialized Crux might be the one that fits the bill but I can't stand Mike Sinyard). And I love Cannondale.

I have:
2014 Cannondale SuperSix - 73* HTA, 558mm stack, 395mm reach, 975mm wheelbase, 405 chainstays
2017 Raleigh Tamland - 71.5* HTA, 581mm stack, 383mm reach, 1043mm wheelbase, 440mm chainstays

I've looked at:
2017 Specialized Crux - 72* HTA, 582mm stack, 388mm reach, 1026mm wheelbase, 425mm chainstays
Pros: I think some models have three bottle mounts, every spec is right in between my two bikes. Cons: Sinyard
Other thoughts: Older models might fit the bill too but finding geo for them is tough, and some of them have that funky SCS rear TA, that's a no-go right there.

2017 Cannondale SuperX - pretty sure they all have the funky asymmetrical rear chainstay/wheel dish thing and 25.4mm seatposts. No-go

2016 Cannondale SuperX (54cm): 72* HTA, 576mm stack, 379mm reach, 1017mm wheelbase, 430mm chainstays
Pros: A possibility, nothing proprietary. Cons: I don't think it uses TA, 38mm tire clearance

2017/8 Giant TCX (ML): 72* HTA, 572mm stack, 385mm reach, 1030mm wheelbase, 430mm chainstays
Pros: Heard most models clear 40mm tires? Cons: any? geo is maybe a little steep?

2017 Fezzari Shafer (M) - 71.5* HTA, 586.6mm stack, 370.8mm reach, 1030mm wheelbase, 440mm chainstays
Pros: Light, threaded BB!, ticks all the boxes really, great value. Cons: Cheezy brand name, short reach?, long chainstays and slack geo might not feel "road bikey" enough?

2017/8 Trek Boone - 72* HTA, 580mm stack, 387mm reach, 1020mm wheelbase, 425mm chainstays
Thoughts: Unsure of max tire size, fairly aggressive racing cross bike.

2018 Santa Cruz Stigmata - 72* HTA, 582mm stack, 388mm reach, 1024mm wheelbase, 425mm chainstays
Pros: dead freaking sexy, probably super fast. Cons: Limited tire size? Maybe true 40s max. Only two bottle mounts.

2018 Open U.P (L) - 72.5* HTA, 580mm stack, 387mm reach, 1014mm wheelbase, 420mm chainstays
Pros: Leans more toward to the road bike end of the gravel bike spectrum than just about anything else. Cons: $$$$$
Thoughts: U.P.P.E.R. and U.P.P.E.R. GravelPlus are even lighter than the U.P.

2018 3T Exploro (L) - 72.5* HTA, 575mm stack, 390mm reach, 415mm chainstays
Pros: Probably the fastest all-road bike made. Cons: Road bike geo, maybe too long and low for extended gravel sessions for the average person. And also, $$$$$!

2018 Niner BSB RDO - 72* HTA, 582mm stack, 393mm reach, 1028mm wheelbase, 425mm chainstays
Pros: Decently lightweight, steep and fast. Cons: Limited tire clearance, maybe 38 max?

2018 Diamondback Haanjo Carbon - 71* HTA, 593mm stack, 373mm reach, 1025mm wheelbase, 430mm chainstays
Pros: Great value, love the Ultegra build. Cons: Super slack geo, concerned how it would ride as a road bike.

2018 Jamis Renegade Elite - 71.5* HTA, 595mm stack, 387mm reach, 1042mm wheelbase, 430mm chainstays
Pros: Great value, great wheels, dead sexy. Cons: Slack geo, wouldn't make for a great climbing/sprinting road bike.

I'll be adding more as I find them and have time but feel free to chime in. Meanwhile, one thing that is tripping me up is how to work out the gearing. I like the 52/36 on my SuperSix and I like my 46/34 on my Tamland. The only thing I can think of for a one quiver bike is 50/34 but I would have to live with spinning out as road bike and dealing with a 50t on gravel. Both I could live with I guess.
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Old 07-20-17, 06:47 AM
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Niner RLT Steel would be a great choice.
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Old 07-20-17, 06:52 AM
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Originally Posted by AVLThumper View Post
Niner RLT Steel would be a great choice.
I was going to post the same bike. Great all around bike. I'm in the process of selling my Roubaix and Hybrid and getting one.
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Old 07-20-17, 06:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Donsell View Post
I was going to post the same bike. Great all around bike. I'm in the process of selling my Roubaix and Hybrid and getting one.
I have an alloy version and absolutely love the bike. Set up with SRAM Force all around and tubeless 40mm Maxxis Ramblers. Awesome bike!
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Old 07-20-17, 07:02 AM
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Originally Posted by AVLThumper View Post
I have an alloy version and absolutely love the bike. Set up with SRAM Force all around and tubeless 40mm Maxxis Ramblers. Awesome bike!
I rode the alloy frame too, great bike! I'll either get the stock 3-star or have a build with 105s.

I just need to sell my Roubaix!
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Old 07-20-17, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by AVLThumper View Post
Niner RLT Steel would be a great choice.
I guess with what I posted I thought it was obvious that lightweight was important. The RLT is awesome but not exactly what this post is referring to.
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Old 07-20-17, 07:19 AM
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Salsa Cutthroat may fit your needs. Very difficult bike to find though.

You've got some tough criteria...3+ bottle cages, wide tires, relaxed geometry and light weight! I'll be watching this thread to see what you come up with.
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Old 07-20-17, 07:27 AM
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That is the drum I have been beating around here. A long low slack sturdy bike is fine if you only ride gravel and want a dull bike, but it’s not appropriate to tell everyone they need a dull bike.

Some people will prefer a light, lively snappy bike that can handle, accelerate, climb at 500-1000 watts, some will be happy with a bike that gives a steady stable ride at 150-200 watts all day long.

Neither are “bad.” Just different strokes for different folks. The blogger “guitar ted” laments how many CX bikes are at gravel races – but with 7 bikes in my garage I don’t need another ride specific choice.

How do you spin out a 46T chainring? I ride in some of the fastest pace lines in the state, and I do fine with 46Tx12T

Open UP looks like a great bike, but it ain’t cheap.
If you love cannondale, do you like the slate?
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Old 07-20-17, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by AVLThumper View Post
Salsa Cutthroat may fit your needs. Very difficult bike to find though.

You've got some tough criteria...3+ bottle cages, wide tires, relaxed geometry and light weight! I'll be watching this thread to see what you come up with.
Cutthroat? Maybe the carbon Warbird. I'll look up the geo.
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Old 07-20-17, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by shoota View Post
I guess with what I posted I thought it was obvious that lightweight was important. The RLT is awesome but not exactly what this post is referring to.
Yes, but when you're talking one bike for everything you're going to make a compromise someplace. Weight is only one consideration. Give the RLT Steel a ride and you'll see it doesn't feel like a 22lbs bike.

This is a personal thing, but I'd rather have the RLT Steel on a century than my Roubaix. If I was racing it might be different.
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Old 07-20-17, 07:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Donsell View Post
If I was racing it might be different.
Probably.

And I already have a steel gravel bike so, again, not the target here.

Updated: added Fezzari Shafer
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Old 07-20-17, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by shoota View Post
Cutthroat? Maybe the carbon Warbird. I'll look up the geo.
I was thinking the same thing.

I saw a warbird on one of our fast group rides. Although they were not in the "fast" group, the bike looked at home with the $3,000 carbon road bikes. Only the wide fishbone rear seat stays gave it away...
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Old 07-20-17, 08:29 AM
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Strictly going off geometry (I'm assuming you are looking at 56), then Trek Boone seems to be close to the middle of the two bikes you own. 580 stack, 387 reach, 1020 wheelbase and 425 chainstays. However, I think you are only getting two water bottle mounts, and it does have Iso speed, which obviously is proprietary. You could go with the Crockett (same geo and no Iso speed), but that might be heavier than you are looking for since it's aluminum vs the carbon Boone. I'm not sure either bike would fit 40mm, especially as a minimum requirement.

FWIW, I live in central Iowa, and get by fine with a 50/34 for both gravel and roads. We don't have a lot of elevation here, but the gravel I ride can get pretty hilly, and I rarely find myself in a 34/32 combination. I also don't find myself spinning out in 50/11, but I'm not a powerful rider either. Also, the gravel south of the Des Moines area is pretty tame, and don't find myself wanting more rubber than my 35 USHs. Of course, it could be more gnarly where you are at.

I'm also looking for a similar bike, and will be following this thread and looking forward to other suggestions you receive.
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Old 07-20-17, 08:39 AM
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Originally Posted by shoota View Post
What I want in a one quiver bike: discs, three bottle mounts (or more), no funky proprietary crap, at least 40mm tire clearance, slacker HTA and longer wheelbase than my SuperSix but less than my Tamland.

Meanwhile, one thing that is tripping me up is how to work out the gearing. I like the 52/36 on my SuperSix and I like my 46/34 on my Tamland. The only thing I can think of for a one quiver bike is 50/34 but I would have to live with spinning out as road bike and dealing with a 50t on gravel. Both I could live with I guess.
Do you genuinely spin out on a 46/11 setup? I only spin out at that gearing if I am going down a hill and at that speed I am going 30-40+mph and have no actual need to pedal.
46/11 is 27mph when turning 80rpm.
And that isnt spinning out- spinning out, at least for me, wouldnt come until a lot more rpm than 80. Lot more. At that point I would be flyin down the road. <---this is all commenting on pavement specifically.

Originally Posted by shoota View Post
I guess with what I posted I thought it was obvious that lightweight was important. The RLT is awesome but not exactly what this post is referring to.
A steel RLT would weigh right between the Tamland and SuperSix, which would address the main complaint of the Tamland(weight). Im guessing thats why it was mentioned- because its a mix of the 2 bikes you have which is what you asked for.


Originally Posted by shoota View Post
And I already have a steel gravel bike so, again, not the target here.
Are you also looking to not have a carbon frame since you already have a carbon frame bike? Just clarifying so further suggestions make sense.






So you want a lightweight aluminum or titanium frame(maybe carbon) with 3 or more bottle mounts, disc brakes, wide tire cleaerance, and traditional component mounting. As for geometry, you want 430mm chainstays, 570mm stack, 390mm reach, and 1000mm wheelbase.

Is that a good summary?
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Old 07-20-17, 09:05 AM
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I got a Santa Cruz Stigmata - virtually same geom as my cdale super six evo, which I had for 5 years and loved.
I got some reynolds assault slg wheels for the stigmata, and rode the stigmata back to back with the evo and sold the evo.
I ride stiggy on gravel using 40c or 33c tires, and road using 25c tires, and don't miss the evo.
The stigmata doesn't have 3 or more bottle mounts, and the geom may not be as slack as you think you want, but i've had no issues with the matching geom in the dirt and gravel.
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Old 07-20-17, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by chas58 View Post
I was thinking the same thing.

I saw a warbird on one of our fast group rides. Although they were not in the "fast" group, the bike looked at home with the $3,000 carbon road bikes. Only the wide fishbone rear seat stays gave it away...

Geometry of the Warbird is going to be closer to the OP's Tamland than the SuperSix.

The Warbird geometry is similar to the Niner RLT 9 RDO with perhaps a slightly more aggressive posture on the Niner.

The Jamis Renegade Elite is similar to both but stack and reach make it look like it runs slightly larger. Test rides will tell.

All three were on my short list and I was in love with the Jamis Renegade Elite for an amazing mix of parts given the price. In the end I picked the Niner RLT 9 RDO frameset because I wanted a Di2 build and liked the fact that the frame uses a Mountain Bike carbon layup. Fast rolling Schwalbe G-One Allaround tires and light wheels keep it "lively."

I hope @shoota will look at the geometry charts of all three as these seem to be where manufacturers think the sweet spot is for do it all "any road" bikes. I also hope he has the chance to ride all three. I could not find a Jamis Renegade Elite anywhere in the Southeast US for test ride or I might have bought it.


-Tim-
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Old 07-20-17, 10:00 AM
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I'd be looking at the Niner RLT RDO if I had your criteria.




You could also try something like the Kona Jake the Snake CR, which I own and ride on gravel. It's pretty nimble like a road bike but it may not offer the wide tire size for you. I can get 38's in there with no problems but haven't tried wider. Cross gearing though, which isn't ideal for gravel but easy enough to convert.

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Old 07-20-17, 10:13 AM
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Niner RLT RDO does sound like an excellent option, and throw the Open U.P. into the mix too.
Ride reports I've heard on the Warbird (one of my original interests) are that it is more suited for longer range touring rides, and less suited to be true road bike replacement - at least for those used to something like a supersix.
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Old 07-20-17, 10:17 AM
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The Niner ain't cheap. I've no regrets and it is a well mannered, reasonably sporty road bike.

If I was going to buy an off the shelf mechanical build however, I'd seriously consider the Jamis Renegade Elite. Ultegra 6800 road gearing, American Classic 29er wheels with centerlock hubs, 160 mm rotors, RS805 calipers, three bottle mounts, fender mounts, fork mounts for racks or extra bottles, carbon everything for $3900 list.

I still want to test ride one.


-Tim-

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Old 07-20-17, 10:42 AM
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I just picked up a Diamondback Haanjo Carbon Comp for <$1700. Weighed in at 20 lb 14.8 oz setup ready for me to ride with the platform pedals until I decide what to get. Min 9mm side clearance with the 700x40c Schwalbe G-One tires, think it can take up to 700x45c, can roll with 650bx2.1". Medium (53cm) has a 70* HTA, 430mm chainstays, 1025mm wheelbase, 371mm reach and 540mm stack.
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Old 07-20-17, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by RocThrower View Post
Strictly going off geometry (I'm assuming you are looking at 56), then Trek Boone seems to be close to the middle of the two bikes you own. 580 stack, 387 reach, 1020 wheelbase and 425 chainstays. However, I think you are only getting two water bottle mounts, and it does have Iso speed, which obviously is proprietary. You could go with the Crockett (same geo and no Iso speed), but that might be heavier than you are looking for since it's aluminum vs the carbon Boone. I'm not sure either bike would fit 40mm, especially as a minimum requirement.

FWIW, I live in central Iowa, and get by fine with a 50/34 for both gravel and roads. We don't have a lot of elevation here, but the gravel I ride can get pretty hilly, and I rarely find myself in a 34/32 combination. I also don't find myself spinning out in 50/11, but I'm not a powerful rider either. Also, the gravel south of the Des Moines area is pretty tame, and don't find myself wanting more rubber than my 35 USHs. Of course, it could be more gnarly where you are at.

I'm also looking for a similar bike, and will be following this thread and looking forward to other suggestions you receive.
Good call on looking up the Boone, I will add that to the list. I'm in Carroll so the gravel and hills here are a little less tame than the Ames/Des Moines area. I'm regularely in the 34-32 and often wanting one more cog when I'm trying to go easier. And it's not limestone here, it's river rock :/

Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Do you genuinely spin out on a 46/11 setup? I only spin out at that gearing if I am going down a hill and at that speed I am going 30-40+mph and have no actual need to pedal.
46/11 is 27mph when turning 80rpm.
And that isnt spinning out- spinning out, at least for me, wouldnt come until a lot more rpm than 80. Lot more. At that point I would be flyin down the road. <---this is all commenting on pavement specifically.

A steel RLT would weigh right between the Tamland and SuperSix, which would address the main complaint of the Tamland(weight). Im guessing thats why it was mentioned- because its a mix of the 2 bikes you have which is what you asked for.

Are you also looking to not have a carbon frame since you already have a carbon frame bike? Just clarifying so further suggestions make sense.

So you want a lightweight aluminum or titanium frame(maybe carbon) with 3 or more bottle mounts, disc brakes, wide tire cleaerance, and traditional component mounting. As for geometry, you want 430mm chainstays, 570mm stack, 390mm reach, and 1000mm wheelbase.

Is that a good summary?
Ha, I knew you'd chime in about the 46-11. In fact I thought about you this morning on my ride when I was flying down a hill in the mid-30s and was approaching spin out. I thought "yeah, I don't *need* more gear here in Iowa but if I was in Colorado and was doing a multiple-mile decent or sprinting for a win on a decline, you bet your ass I'd need a 50t up front." Mind you was on my Tamland in gravel. The idea behind this post is a one bike do-it-all. In road bike mode 46-11 sure as heck ain't gonna cut the mustard, and there would be times 50-11 wouldn't cut it either. But since 52-34 is untested by me personally 50-34 is what I would probably settle on. (I've heard 52-34 works though.) Also, I could just do 52-36 and something like 11-36 in the back I suppose.

And yeah I think your summary is pretty accurate minus the metal frames. If I were to do this it would be a carbon bike for sure.

Originally Posted by motorthings View Post
I got a Santa Cruz Stigmata - virtually same geom as my cdale super six evo, which I had for 5 years and loved.
I got some reynolds assault slg wheels for the stigmata, and rode the stigmata back to back with the evo and sold the evo.
I ride stiggy on gravel using 40c or 33c tires, and road using 25c tires, and don't miss the evo.
The stigmata doesn't have 3 or more bottle mounts, and the geom may not be as slack as you think you want, but i've had no issues with the matching geom in the dirt and gravel.
Oh yeah I forgot about the Stigmata, I'll try to add that to the list. Good call, sounds promising.

Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
The Niner ain't cheap. I've no regrets and it is a well mannered, reasonably sporty road bike.

If I was going to buy an off the shelf mechanical build however, I'd seriously consider the Jamis Renegade Elite. Ultegra 6800 road gearing, American Classic 29er wheels with centerlock hubs, 160 mm rotors, RS805 calipers, three bottle mounts, fender mounts, fork mounts for racks or extra bottles, carbon everything for $3900 list.
I still want to test ride one.

-Tim-
Yeah Renegade Elite is a really nice option, I'll add it to the list. But its geo is pretty slack for use as a road bike I think.

Originally Posted by motorthings View Post
Niner RLT RDO does sound like an excellent option, and throw the Open U.P. into the mix too.
Ride reports I've heard on the Warbird (one of my original interests) are that it is more suited for longer range touring rides, and less suited to be true road bike replacement - at least for those used to something like a supersix.
Ah, the U.P. and Exploro, I forgot about those. I should add them. But both are almost crazy insane expensive, yikes.
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Old 07-20-17, 12:27 PM
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Fuji Jari? It's aluminum so lighter weight than a lot of the steel options. Cheap.
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Old 07-20-17, 12:42 PM
  #23  
TimothyH
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Originally Posted by shoota View Post
Yeah Renegade Elite is a really nice option, I'll add it to the list. But its geo is pretty slack for use as a road bike I think.
I don't know. It is close to the RLT 9 RDO and that rides really nice on pavement. I would not hesitate to ride my RLT on a paved metric.

Geometry alone doesn't tell the whole story. A fast tire and light wheelset will make a decent bike handle really nicely. Test rides are the only way to tell.

If you have the 3T Exploro and Niner BSB RDO on your list then look at the Cervelo C3. I don't know about tire clearance on this bike but it is a very sporty all road bike.


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Old 07-20-17, 12:42 PM
  #24  
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Raleigh Roker Comp is all carbon, SRAM, hydraulic discs, fender mounts, 3 bottle mounts, 40mm tires, 19.95lb. $1740 with corporate discount.

https://www.raleighusa.com/roker-comp-2886

Or Roker Sport, all carbon, Tiagra, mechanical disc, fender mounts, 3 bottle mounts, 40mm tires, 21.52lb. $1300. (and better paintjob than the Comp)

https://www.raleighusa.com/roker-sport-2873
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Old 07-20-17, 12:45 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by Donto View Post
I just picked up a Diamondback Haanjo Carbon Comp for <$1700. Weighed in at 20 lb 14.8 oz setup ready for me to ride with the platform pedals until I decide what to get. Min 9mm side clearance with the 700x40c Schwalbe G-One tires, think it can take up to 700x45c, can roll with 650bx2.1". Medium (53cm) has a 70* HTA, 430mm chainstays, 1025mm wheelbase, 371mm reach and 540mm stack.
Thanks. Added.
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