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New Canyon Gravel/Trail bike to be released tomorrow...

Cyclocross and Gravelbiking (Recreational) This has to be the most physically intense sport ever invented. It's high speed bicycle racing on a short off road course or riding the off pavement rides on gravel like :The Dirty Kanza". We also have a dedicated Racing forum for the Cyclocross Hard Core Racers.

New Canyon Gravel/Trail bike to be released tomorrow...

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Old 03-17-18, 09:46 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Lazyass View Post
That bar would be a deal breaker for me, even if the height were more adjustable. You only get bump absorption when you're in the tops, and I'm hardly ever in the tops. I grab the tops when I want to take a quick breather. A suspension stem would be 100x better.
Like the Future Shock? Does anyone know if the Future Shock is a protected design? If so, other manufactures will need to design more innovative solutions, but I agree FS is a better design.
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Old 03-17-18, 09:50 AM
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Specialized ripped it off from Cannodale, fair and square, so I suspect they will vigorously protect it, like they always do.
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Old 03-17-18, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by SpeedRanger View Post
Like the Future Shock? Does anyone know if the Future Shock is a protected design? If so, other manufactures will need to design more innovative solutions, but I agree FS is a better design.
Like the ShockStop. Same amount of travel as the FS, lighter and it can be swapped to another bike.

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Old 03-17-18, 10:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Facanh View Post
I know that's not racey and cool but you can just simply lengthen the chainstays...

I would like to run 45-47s. Where I live we don't really have gravel roads, mainly just dirt roads that are a bit rougher. I mix paved roads with offroad on my rides, and sometimes I would like a bit more plush than what my 37s give me. The "gravel" tyre selection is still the biggest in 38-40mm tho I think.

I would really like an MTB, but the terrain where I live is too boring for it, and I find a nice elevated drop bar much much more comfortable than a straight handlebar even on 1-1,5 hour rides.
You have to lengthen the stays anyway--for tire clearance at the BB. If you stick to 700C wheels. Which is why 650B conversions are taking off, lowering the high center of gravity and often finding more tire clearance.


By the time you're done making all the tweaks, you end up with a dropbar 29er MTB...rather than road/CX/touring geometry that can take big tires. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Look at all the engineering that went it Cur've GMX clearing a 60mm tire:

https://www.curvecycling.com.au/prod...-monster-cross

The chainstays (length) and yolk are very similar to my Carver, but they bent the seat tube, made a CF MTB fork...and top-tube routed all the cabling. They were able to make 68mm roadie std BB/cranks work, although for a bike that sees such offroad duties you probably want MTB clutched RDs. And for 60mm tires a 50T high gear is way too high, Heck even a 46T high gear is probably still barely usable.
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Old 03-17-18, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
You have to lengthen the stays anyway--for tire clearance at the BB. If you stick to 700C wheels. Which is why 650B conversions are taking off, lowering the high center of gravity and often finding more tire clearance.


By the time you're done making all the tweaks, you end up with a dropbar 29er MTB...rather than road/CX/touring geometry that can take big tires. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Look at all the engineering that went it Cur've GMX clearing a 60mm tire:

https://www.curvecycling.com.au/prod...-monster-cross

The chainstays (length) and yolk are very similar to my Carver, but they bent the seat tube, made a CF MTB fork...and top-tube routed all the cabling. They were able to make 68mm roadie std BB/cranks work, although for a bike that sees such offroad duties you probably want MTB clutched RDs. And for 60mm tires a 50T high gear is way too high, Heck even a 46T high gear is probably still barely usable.
Yeah that Cur've has some trick engineering but you originally talked about fitting 700x45mm tyres being hard. Making 700x45-50mm tyres fit with a 68mm BB is easy if you lengthen the chainstays a bit compared to a road bike. Around 440mm, if possible a bit of dimpling, that's all you need (Salsa Journeyman). At least in my opinion that alone doesn't turn a bike into a drop bar MTB. Of course every bike reviewer would point out that the bike is "not as flickable" or some other nonsense crap.

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Old 05-03-18, 01:23 PM
  #31  
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I just ordered the Ultegra version of the Grail. I read a lot of reviews - riding the bike - and they were all good. The only negatives I could find were the aesthetics of the Hover Bar and the limited options for adjustment of the bar/stem. Good news - I kinda like the looks of the bar, and if the perfect fit isn't there - back in the box it goes!

I'll dredge up this thread and post up after a few rides.
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Old 05-03-18, 02:31 PM
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Please do, I'm mainly curious how the additional thumb support on the drops does or does not contribute to additional control. You ever want to come up and ride it around the singletrack at Sope Creek send me a PM and I'll dust off my gravel bike and join you.
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Old 05-03-18, 02:39 PM
  #33  
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I'll take a personal day and ride with you guys too. Anywhere in North Georgia is fine by me. Let me know.

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Old 05-03-18, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Zaskar View Post
I just ordered the Ultegra version of the Grail. I read a lot of reviews - riding the bike - and they were all good. The only negatives I could find were the aesthetics of the Hover Bar and the limited options for adjustment of the bar/stem. Good news - I kinda like the looks of the bar, and if the perfect fit isn't there - back in the box it goes!

I'll dredge up this thread and post up after a few rides.
Nice! I got an Ultegra Inflite (about a day before they announce the Grail). Its amazing. ~900gr frame, ~7.5kg with road wheels (7.9 with gravel), Accelerates as fast an hard as my track bike, handles with agility, yet is cush on an all day gravel ride on 40mm tires. I'm rather shocked with how much fun it is.
Dislikes: color sux (grey/black only), Canyon USA does not offer the lever of service that Canyon EU does, You get a spec bike with no changes, while EU is much more flexible on the build.
I ordered the bike in two sizes, kept the one I liked and sent the other bike back.
It would have been interesting to order a Grail too and compare them back to back...
Surprises: Amazing attention to design and detail, that wierd kink in the top tube really works, nothing to upgrade on the bike (other than a second set of wheels). Its a conversation starter in a group.

Bonus: Raleigh seems to pack all of their bikes poorly and things get bent. Canyon knows how to pack a bike.
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Old 05-03-18, 03:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
Wider than 45s start causing problems:

A) Frameset clearance

You have to get very creative with chainstay geometry to even get to 45mm. Either a yolk like my Carver, or a droopy stay like the OpenUP

B) Drivetrain compatibility

Due to the wide tires, chainline gets to be a problem (chain clearing the tire and FD cage clearing too). Also for crank arms to clear the wide stay, you need an MTB crankset. There's also gearing problems as 73mm std based cranks aren't geared higher than 42T

And there's also the "is it worth the effort?" question....on my Bigfoot rig, the times I've found 44-45mm tires inadequate, I honestly would have wanted a 4" tire to enjoy the pea gravel. Above 45mm tires, I'd want a fat-tire rigid MTB.
Good reply. There are just a lot of compromises to go bigger, and that makes it a different bike. Not bad, but deviating from a performance drop bar bike. At that point I would rather be on my cross country hard tail, and I think they were thinking the same thing.
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Old 05-04-18, 06:27 AM
  #36  
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@chas58 - that was exactly my thought (and yeah, great reply @Marcus_Ti) - if I need bigger than 42mm, I have another bike for that. On that note, the Grail's not even here and I'm already shopping for another set of wheels - I want to ride the bike on road - the "slow" days - with the club, but do NOT want to do that on 40mm Schwalbe G-ONE Bite.

Love the idea of meeting up for a ride!
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Old 06-13-18, 11:14 AM
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Dredging thread as promised...

I've only ridden the Grail off-road once, for 56 miles. And, much of that was on less than ideal psi - the tubeless wasn't behaving. But, when it was working... it worked!

While a (gulp) roadie for most of my miles, my background is BMX then MTB. I fully expected a gravel bike on dirt to ride like a slightly more secure/stable road bike. Nope. This thing is so much more confidence-inspiring than I expected. Crossing the rough between the double-track at speed, mud, loose turns, etc., I found myself wanting to go faster - like tucked in an aero position on descents to get more speed! I had a $%&#ing blast on my first non-pavement ride on the Grail.

That "weird", "hideous", "deal breaker" of a bar - the HoverBar (which, admittedly, I like the looks of... I know) works great. I can't say the suspension aspect was terribly noticeable. Maybe that's the point - I rested my hands there, and was comfortable. But, the point where the cross member intersects the drop, creates that little ledge to hook your thumbs when in the drops. It's definitely a bonus. My hands felt more planted than on a standard drop bar... to the point, that I could see mimicking that notch on standard drop bars.

Sadly, all of my other rides so far have been on the road. I bought a second set of wheels (narrower rims; 28mm Contis) for the road - so I'd get more use out of this oh-so-needed latest bike purchase. On the road, the bike is great - just what you'd expect from a sub-19lb carbon frameset, Ultegra build. I've gotten in the habit of riding the Grail on "slow days", where the comparatively (to my Scott Foil) increased weight and relaxed geometry and longer wheelbase/chainstays don't make themselves apparent. It's close enough to a competent road bike (with that second set of wheels/tires) that, if had only one bike, the Grail would be it.


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Old 06-13-18, 12:02 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Zaskar View Post
Dredging thread as promised...

I've only ridden the Grail off-road once, for 56 miles. And, much of that was on less than ideal psi - the tubeless wasn't behaving. But, when it was working... it worked!

While a (gulp) roadie for most of my miles, my background is BMX then MTB. I fully expected a gravel bike on dirt to ride like a slightly more secure/stable road bike. Nope. This thing is so much more confidence-inspiring than I expected. Crossing the rough between the double-track at speed, mud, loose turns, etc., I found myself wanting to go faster - like tucked in an aero position on descents to get more speed! I had a $%&#ing blast on my first non-pavement ride on the Grail.

That "weird", "hideous", "deal breaker" of a bar - the HoverBar (which, admittedly, I like the looks of... I know) works great. I can't say the suspension aspect was terribly noticeable. Maybe that's the point - I rested my hands there, and was comfortable. But, the point where the cross member intersects the drop, creates that little ledge to hook your thumbs when in the drops. It's definitely a bonus. My hands felt more planted than on a standard drop bar... to the point, that I could see mimicking that notch on standard drop bars.

Sadly, all of my other rides so far have been on the road. I bought a second set of wheels (narrower rims; 28mm Contis) for the road - so I'd get more use out of this oh-so-needed latest bike purchase. On the road, the bike is great - just what you'd expect from a sub-19lb carbon frameset, Ultegra build. I've gotten in the habit of riding the Grail on "slow days", where the comparatively (to my Scott Foil) increased weight and relaxed geometry and longer wheelbase/chainstays don't make themselves apparent. It's close enough to a competent road bike (with that second set of wheels/tires) that, if had only one bike, the Grail would be it.

Great update!
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Old 06-13-18, 03:16 PM
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Thanks! Like the picture, and the writeup.
I was bummed my bike (Inflite) was so dark and monochrome black, so I brightened it up a bit. Here it is with 28/32mm road guise below
(today it is wearing 40mm gravel tires for my next ride).
Sounds like you have the endurance version, I have what basically feels like a crit bike that takes fat tires - super fast and agile with road tires.


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Old 06-13-18, 03:20 PM
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@chas58 - that looks great! What did you use for the graphics?
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Old 06-13-18, 03:33 PM
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The red and some of the blue is high vis reflective tape (3M). the 1/4" and 1/8" is pinstriping tape. The blue 1" is electrical tape.
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Old 06-13-18, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Zaskar View Post
Dredging thread as promised...

I've only ridden the Grail off-road once, for 56 miles.

I saw this bike in person when it was virgin, clean, before it had been on dirt.

It looks better now.


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Old 06-14-18, 08:49 AM
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Road pedals? Interesting choice
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Old 06-14-18, 09:59 AM
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Interestingly I did a test on some harsh washboard yesterday with some 32mm tires on my Inflite

At 15-16mph the canyon carbon seat post just soaked up the harshest washboard. I didn't realize how hard I was punishing it until I put my weight forward gripped the handlebars - the front of the bike was getting the cr*p violently beat out of it. I quickly put my weight back on my saddle with a light touch on the bars.

I don't know how much was the bike and how much was the seat post, but dang, the back of this setup soaks up bumps. I do think that at speeds closer to 20mph+ that the bike would just violently skip across the tops of the crest of the washboard, but I haven't had a need to use the thudbuster since getting this bike/seatpost combination.
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Old 06-14-18, 10:24 AM
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Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
Road pedals? Interesting choice
I went with road pedals because the race (those 56 miles) included nothing technical - zero unclipping, running/walking, etc.

I'm new to the gravel scene, so I did check out what other guys were using. I was in the 3rd row at the start... with all the Cat-1s and 2s (lots of shaved legs and 5% body fat) and - while waiting for the start - did a bit of a survey of pedals. It seemed like at least 20% of the guys were using road pedals and shoes.

For anything technical, I'll definitely swap the road for mtb pedals.
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Old 06-14-18, 02:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Zaskar View Post
I went with road pedals because the race (those 56 miles) included nothing technical - zero unclipping, running/walking, etc.

I'm new to the gravel scene, so I did check out what other guys were using. I was in the 3rd row at the start... with all the Cat-1s and 2s (lots of shaved legs and 5% body fat) and - while waiting for the start - did a bit of a survey of pedals. It seemed like at least 20% of the guys were using road pedals and shoes.

For anything technical, I'll definitely swap the road for mtb pedals.
gotcha
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Old 06-14-18, 03:07 PM
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I think it's ridiculous looking and I ride a slate.
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Old 06-15-18, 05:49 PM
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Originally Posted by tyrion View Post
How long until they redesign it with more normal handlebars? Should we start a pool? (How long until someone breaks their wrists while holding the lower bar?)
I bet they are great comfy take edge off the road bumps......They are a good bike company give them a chance.
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Old 06-15-18, 06:22 PM
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Originally Posted by thehammerdog View Post
I bet they are great comfy take edge off the road bumps......They are a good bike company give them a chance.
Yeah they're getting good reviews. And no broken wrists yet.
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Old 06-18-18, 08:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Zaskar View Post
Dredging thread as promised...
You'll love this review then

Review: Canyon Grail CF SL 8.0 SL | road.cc

It's a product of great engineering, not just the frameset but the Canyon components too. It's been designed as a complete package you can call them gimmicks if you like, but wow, they all add up to an awesome ride.

The Grail is fast, smooth, comfortable, light and has great handling, but above all else it's masses and masses of fun.


This article does a great job of articulating the riding experience of our bikes (given that the Grail is endurance oriented and the Inflite is race oriented).

I have to say, most gravel bikes that I have ridden are rather boring. But the inflite at least (and apparently the Grail too) put a huge smile on my face and make me want to go ride more. I've ridden no other bike that is that smooth and yet accelerates so fast.
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