Trek Checkpoint Tire Clearance Debacle - the plot thickens?!
02-27-19, 02:55 PM
#51
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I have yet to see a manufacturer actually list the specification related to tire clearance. Specifications in this area would look like "Smallest lateral distance from centerline of bike to nearest obstruction 350mm away from hub is 25mm. Shortest radial distance from center of hub to nearest obstruction: 800mm."
Basic guidance on max tires width that will fit is what this thread is about.
Statements like "Maximum tire clearance with 700c wheels is 45 mm. Tire widths vary and your results might be different" or similar is what this thread is about.
You are arguing about something no one else here cares about and calling bizarre things nobody is talking about.
-Tim-
02-27-19, 02:59 PM
#52
Senior Member
I've never seen this type of spec either but that isn't what this thread is about. We are not talking about design diagrams and blueprints.
Basic guidance on max tires width that will fit is what this thread is about.
Statements like "Maximum tire clearance with 700c wheels is 45 mm. Tire widths vary and your results might be different" or similar is what this thread is about.
You are arguing about something no one else here cares about and calling bizarre things nobody is talking about.
-Tim-
Basic guidance on max tires width that will fit is what this thread is about.
Statements like "Maximum tire clearance with 700c wheels is 45 mm. Tire widths vary and your results might be different" or similar is what this thread is about.
You are arguing about something no one else here cares about and calling bizarre things nobody is talking about.
-Tim-
If a 45mm tire fits in there, I stand by my statement that these are bizarre gripes.
IF a 45mm tire will not go into a checkpoint and rotate, then I retract my statements completely on the matter. (Not that I actually believe one would not fit)
02-27-19, 03:51 PM
#53
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Either way, it is nice to have a manufacturer give some sort of hint about what might fit without changing their mind every few days. It helps people to know if a bike might be something they want to look at further. That's all.
I've no dog in this hunt though.
I've no dog in this hunt though.
02-27-19, 04:57 PM
#54
Chases Dogs for Sport
Thread Starter
Manufacturers absolutely know the nominal tire size a given frame is going to clear, the issue is if it will do so safely on the completed bike and remain reasonably safe within assembly bounds. That guy up there who sent his wife out into the world with less than a credit card width between frame and tire? If a spoke broke and the tire jammed to a stop causing a crash it would be an easy case for him to be liable for negligence in assembly of the tire in the frame. Expert witness would testify that that level of clearance is not usual for a bicycle meant to be ridden on the open road and due care was not exercised.
Where someone at Trek screwed up is probably at the front derailleur. Like if the derailleur cable breaks and the low-limit screw is backed all the way out the fixing bolt can jam against the tire causing it to stop rotating. Or there's an issue with clamping movement or something. Or the linkage on the new-style front derailleurs is causing issues. I bet the frame specs were signed off like the one below and then when the bikes got assembled and in the field a problem was found that wasn't clearly seen by whoever did the geometry. Or the chain can get caught by the tire when in the lowest gears. Something unexpected and not visible purely on the frame. This isn't the first time something weird has happened as demand for big 700c tires on road-style geometry has developed. There was another model that was originally advertised as 1x/2x compatible that changed after the frames arrived from Taiwan.
G-Ted found the 45mm claim shaky for the 2018 model: Guitar Ted Productions: Hands On With The New Trek Checkpoint
.
Where someone at Trek screwed up is probably at the front derailleur. Like if the derailleur cable breaks and the low-limit screw is backed all the way out the fixing bolt can jam against the tire causing it to stop rotating. Or there's an issue with clamping movement or something. Or the linkage on the new-style front derailleurs is causing issues. I bet the frame specs were signed off like the one below and then when the bikes got assembled and in the field a problem was found that wasn't clearly seen by whoever did the geometry. Or the chain can get caught by the tire when in the lowest gears. Something unexpected and not visible purely on the frame. This isn't the first time something weird has happened as demand for big 700c tires on road-style geometry has developed. There was another model that was originally advertised as 1x/2x compatible that changed after the frames arrived from Taiwan.
G-Ted found the 45mm claim shaky for the 2018 model: Guitar Ted Productions: Hands On With The New Trek Checkpoint
.
Everywhere else, there is a TON of room around a 40mm wide tire. I suspect there would be room for 45mm wide tires (as claimed), so long as you didn't mount a front derailleur.
02-27-19, 05:18 PM
#55
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Except it IS a bizarre gripe.
I have yet to see a manufacturer actually list the specification related to tire clearance. Specifications in this area would look like "Smallest lateral distance from centerline of bike to nearest obstruction 350mm away from hub is 25mm. Shortest radial distance from center of hub to nearest obstruction: 800mm."
Instead, what you are looking at, and complaining about, is one particular manufacturers recommendation of how much clearance you should have in between a tire and the frame. Which will vary WILDLY,, and not really indicative of how much space the bike has relative to other bikes.
I have yet to see a manufacturer actually list the specification related to tire clearance. Specifications in this area would look like "Smallest lateral distance from centerline of bike to nearest obstruction 350mm away from hub is 25mm. Shortest radial distance from center of hub to nearest obstruction: 800mm."
Instead, what you are looking at, and complaining about, is one particular manufacturers recommendation of how much clearance you should have in between a tire and the frame. Which will vary WILDLY,, and not really indicative of how much space the bike has relative to other bikes.
companies advertise a tire width max and must stick to that. They sold products based on said max and need to honor it. If they were wrong, then the company should make things right, whatever that may mean.
you really went on a rant there, and it doesnt matter if a tire will literally spin- if there isnt enough clearance for error and use(mud, spoke break, rock) then that tire is too large. That isn't a frames clearance.
a frames stated clearance needs to be whatever the company is willing to stand behind when it comes to damage. The company needs to be willing to say that their frame will work as intended up to X tire size. Beyond that size, users are on their own.
to change the tire size and make qualifications such as tire brand is unacceptable.
as you say- 45mm is 45mm. If that is the stated max, then a measured 45mm tire should work without issue.
changing the tire max after bikes have been sold is bad juju. Its flat out deceptive if amends arent made.
02-27-19, 06:05 PM
#56
Senior Member
I also have never seen the statement you mention posted on a website. So since that statement basically doesnt exist, let's agree that such a standard shouldnt have used.
companies advertise a tire width max and must stick to that. They sold products based on said max and need to honor it. If they were wrong, then the company should make things right, whatever that may mean.
you really went on a rant there, and it doesnt matter if a tire will literally spin- if there isnt enough clearance for error and use(mud, spoke break, rock) then that tire is too large. That isn't a frames clearance.
a frames stated clearance needs to be whatever the company is willing to stand behind when it comes to damage. The company needs to be willing to say that their frame will work as intended up to X tire size. Beyond that size, users are on their own.
to change the tire size and make qualifications such as tire brand is unacceptable.
as you say- 45mm is 45mm. If that is the stated max, then a measured 45mm tire should work without issue.
changing the tire max after bikes have been sold is bad juju. Its flat out deceptive if amends arent made.
companies advertise a tire width max and must stick to that. They sold products based on said max and need to honor it. If they were wrong, then the company should make things right, whatever that may mean.
you really went on a rant there, and it doesnt matter if a tire will literally spin- if there isnt enough clearance for error and use(mud, spoke break, rock) then that tire is too large. That isn't a frames clearance.
a frames stated clearance needs to be whatever the company is willing to stand behind when it comes to damage. The company needs to be willing to say that their frame will work as intended up to X tire size. Beyond that size, users are on their own.
to change the tire size and make qualifications such as tire brand is unacceptable.
as you say- 45mm is 45mm. If that is the stated max, then a measured 45mm tire should work without issue.
changing the tire max after bikes have been sold is bad juju. Its flat out deceptive if amends arent made.
The way it was worded...I was under the impression that Trek just couldn't decide how much clearance they wanted to recommend, but that there was in fact 45mm+ clearance around the entire circumference of a tire.
02-27-19, 06:15 PM
#57
Chases Dogs for Sport
Thread Starter
Ah sorry if I missed that - pretty clear why they are dissembling and skirting around with the clearance. That's annoying and certainly something the designers should have foreseen. Hands-off design where everything is done with company specs and nominal values makes it easy to mess up like this.
02-27-19, 09:24 PM
#58
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But at the end of the day Trek originally advertised the Checkpoint as a bike that could take 45mm tires with no caveats.
An example of proper specification is the Fairlight Secan. In the specs they clearly state and have different max tire clearances for 1x and 2x. They even give you the different clearances for 650b and 700c in both configs so 4 clearances total.
It would have cost Trek nothing to list all this in the specs when the bike first came out but instead they decided to roll with it and piss people off.
An example of proper specification is the Fairlight Secan. In the specs they clearly state and have different max tire clearances for 1x and 2x. They even give you the different clearances for 650b and 700c in both configs so 4 clearances total.
It would have cost Trek nothing to list all this in the specs when the bike first came out but instead they decided to roll with it and piss people off.
02-27-19, 11:44 PM
#59
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I just measured how far the Di2 front derailleur protrudes behind the seat tube -- it's a full inch. And, as best I can measure, it's 20mm from the center line of the wheel. Trek was clearly counting on there being nothing occupying that space. Without that derailleur, there's another 25mm of clearance between tire and seat tube.
02-28-19, 07:52 AM
#60
Senior Member
Good point. I just checked their website and it doesnt look like they even sell a DI2 version of the bike. Of course...their website is pretty incomprehensible...they could have it in the house plant section or something.
02-28-19, 08:09 AM
#61
Non omnino gravis
...so if the Checkpoint will clear a 45mm tire without a Di2 FD installed, then I see no problem here. If the issue is the tire fitment with a non-OEM part, that's not Trek's fault. This comes from an uninvolved 3rd party who has no great love of Trek.
A guy tried to sue both Giant and my LBS a few years back because he'd had a tire blow out while riding and he wrecked. The lawyers were calling in people from my LBS for statements, and that's when one noticed the bike had different rims and tires than what it had been sold with-- further, wheels and tires that the LBS did not install, and did not carry or sell. The litigation ended right then and there.
A guy tried to sue both Giant and my LBS a few years back because he'd had a tire blow out while riding and he wrecked. The lawyers were calling in people from my LBS for statements, and that's when one noticed the bike had different rims and tires than what it had been sold with-- further, wheels and tires that the LBS did not install, and did not carry or sell. The litigation ended right then and there.
__________________
02-28-19, 03:00 PM
#63
Chases Dogs for Sport
Thread Starter
I'm not sure if this is a problem for anything but Di2, but it seems odd that they changed the spec for all the bikes if Di2 bikes are the only ones with the issue. (Mine was built up by my LBS from the Checkpoint frameset.) The closest point of interference, for me, is my Di2 front derailleur. Even a 40mm tire won't clear that derailleur.
My LBS has asked Trek what the problem is and they haven't given him any answers except to say that they will do something for those who bought the bike expecting clearance for 45mm tires plus mud. They say they will get back to him with what they're going to do. But it's already been a week . . . [crickets].
Either way, my LBS is making it right for me -- trading out my Checkpoint frameset for a new frameset of my choice, and switching over the components for no charge. THAT, my friends, is great customer service. I offered to pay something, but he refused. Wow. With any luck, by the end of March, this won't be my problem anymore.
My LBS has asked Trek what the problem is and they haven't given him any answers except to say that they will do something for those who bought the bike expecting clearance for 45mm tires plus mud. They say they will get back to him with what they're going to do. But it's already been a week . . . [crickets].
Either way, my LBS is making it right for me -- trading out my Checkpoint frameset for a new frameset of my choice, and switching over the components for no charge. THAT, my friends, is great customer service. I offered to pay something, but he refused. Wow. With any luck, by the end of March, this won't be my problem anymore.
02-28-19, 03:24 PM
#64
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A Trek sponsored rider rode the Checkpoint at DK200 with di2 and 40mm tires and the clearance on the fd was razor thin from the pics.
02-28-19, 03:48 PM
#65
Senior Member
I'm not sure if this is a problem for anything but Di2, but it seems odd that they changed the spec for all the bikes if Di2 bikes are the only ones with the issue. (Mine was built up by my LBS from the Checkpoint frameset.) The closest point of interference, for me, is my Di2 front derailleur. Even a 40mm tire won't clear that derailleur.
My LBS has asked Trek what the problem is and they haven't given him any answers except to say that they will do something for those who bought the bike expecting clearance for 45mm tires plus mud. They say they will get back to him with what they're going to do. But it's already been a week . . . [crickets].
Either way, my LBS is making it right for me -- trading out my Checkpoint frameset for a new frameset of my choice, and switching over the components for no charge. THAT, my friends, is great customer service. I offered to pay something, but he refused. Wow. With any luck, by the end of March, this won't be my problem anymore.
My LBS has asked Trek what the problem is and they haven't given him any answers except to say that they will do something for those who bought the bike expecting clearance for 45mm tires plus mud. They say they will get back to him with what they're going to do. But it's already been a week . . . [crickets].
Either way, my LBS is making it right for me -- trading out my Checkpoint frameset for a new frameset of my choice, and switching over the components for no charge. THAT, my friends, is great customer service. I offered to pay something, but he refused. Wow. With any luck, by the end of March, this won't be my problem anymore.
As an aside though...this has got to be an issue with DI2 on all bikes, not just the checkpoint. The derailleur is going to be in the exact same place in space (or nearly..) relative to the bottom bracket (and thus the rear wheel of any bike with similar chainstay length and BB drop...).
It would seem to me that DI2 just isnt meant to be used with wide tires period. Do others here use DI2 on wide tire bikes?
Last edited by Abe_Froman; 02-28-19 at 03:53 PM.
02-28-19, 03:55 PM
#66
Chases Dogs for Sport
Thread Starter
Yes, somebody at Trek had reason to know of the issue even before the "45mm plus mud" advertising copy hit the website. But apparently they didn't say anything to the right person in the marketing department.
02-28-19, 04:00 PM
#67
Chases Dogs for Sport
Thread Starter
That sounds like a good resolution; it seems like it was a bit of an oversoght on the bikeshops part anyway...not knowing DI2 wouldnt work on the bike. Not that they can really be blamed though...
As an aside though...this has got to be an issue with DI2 on all bikes, not just the checkpoint. The derailleur is going to be in the exact same place in space (or nearly..) relative to the bottom bracket (and thus the rear wheel of any bike with similar chainstay length and BB drop...).
It would seem to me that DI2 just isnt meant to be used with wide tires period. Do others here use DI2 on wide tire bikes?
As an aside though...this has got to be an issue with DI2 on all bikes, not just the checkpoint. The derailleur is going to be in the exact same place in space (or nearly..) relative to the bottom bracket (and thus the rear wheel of any bike with similar chainstay length and BB drop...).
It would seem to me that DI2 just isnt meant to be used with wide tires period. Do others here use DI2 on wide tire bikes?
Last edited by FlashBazbo; 02-28-19 at 04:04 PM.
02-28-19, 04:29 PM
#68
Senior Member
I have used Di2 on other gravel bikes (Niner RLT9 and Lynskey) with wide tires without any problem. The issue with Trek is that the Isospeed seat tube is cut waaaaay back (nearly a full inch) for both tire clearance and added flex. Then, with the seat tube out of the way, they are able to shorten the wheelbase, compared to other bikes -- they thought. What they didn't realize is that the derailleur is still mounted in the same place -- it's not cut back like the tube is -- and that leaves the derailleur exposed more so (an inch more so) than with other bikes.
02-28-19, 04:51 PM
#69
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Seems to me that a manufacturer should spec the tire clearance along the lines of say allowing a tire 3mm larger than spec actually working although close. So a to spec tire works very well. This isn't rocket science. Specing a 45mm tire should mean that all "45mm" tires except ones grossly over work.
I"m guessing miscommunication, the ad guys not talking to the designer, engineers and the web developers and all combos of vice versa. Their on-line mistake gets caught and they go into panic mode (but still no effective communication). Oops. (And here, being bigger is NOT an asset to getting things cleaned up promptly and neatly.)
I'm not impressed, but not especially surprised. I've worked in companies that designed, built and marketed their stuff. But then, I am in no danger of buying from the big 3 anyway so it really doesn't matter to me. (I actually respect Giant, as huge as they are, the most.)
Ben
I"m guessing miscommunication, the ad guys not talking to the designer, engineers and the web developers and all combos of vice versa. Their on-line mistake gets caught and they go into panic mode (but still no effective communication). Oops. (And here, being bigger is NOT an asset to getting things cleaned up promptly and neatly.)
I'm not impressed, but not especially surprised. I've worked in companies that designed, built and marketed their stuff. But then, I am in no danger of buying from the big 3 anyway so it really doesn't matter to me. (I actually respect Giant, as huge as they are, the most.)
Ben
02-28-19, 05:05 PM
#70
Chases Dogs for Sport
Thread Starter
EDIT: Looking now at the chainstay specs of bikes that fit 45mm tires? The Checkpoint's are somewhat shorter. So, for that spec, I would say they are unusually short. But of course we now know that the Checkpoint won't fit 45mm tires, officially.
Last edited by FlashBazbo; 02-28-19 at 07:21 PM.
02-28-19, 05:26 PM
#71
Sunshine
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What frame did you get?
I just went on the checkpoint page again...what a joke. A dozen companies do gravel better. My goodness, there is nothing appealing- not the road gearing, not the limited tire clearance(even with stock components), and not the $1000+ aluminum frameset or the $2200 carbon frameset.
$2900 for an unimpressive 105 carbon gravel bike?
man I am out of touch with the cost of goods.
anyways- what frame did you get?!
I just went on the checkpoint page again...what a joke. A dozen companies do gravel better. My goodness, there is nothing appealing- not the road gearing, not the limited tire clearance(even with stock components), and not the $1000+ aluminum frameset or the $2200 carbon frameset.
$2900 for an unimpressive 105 carbon gravel bike?
man I am out of touch with the cost of goods.
anyways- what frame did you get?!
02-28-19, 07:22 PM
#72
Chases Dogs for Sport
Thread Starter
