TimothyH

I don't buy into the idea that one has to crash to learn how to ride fast.

If you ride long enough then you will crash eventually but I don't believe it is necessary to crash to learn how to ride near or at the limit.


-Tim-

tyrion

Slack head tube angle, longer front center.

The bike geometry does matter - come one, you must admit that.

pbass

This right here. After riding only my Cross Check for a few years, and on plenty of gnarly descents on singletrack, when I got my Rove that has much more of a mtb geo I could suddenly descend faster (with the same skill set.
It's also 650B vs 700c, so that may be a factor as well.

gregf83 

Ever see a fast skier who hasn't crashed?

ridethetown

Tubeless, wider, lower pressures. That is really all I can offer.

jp911

Large saddle cutout for the massive sack it takes to nail loose gravel turns at high speed.

tyrion

I'm not an expert on this and I'm sorry if I came across as one, but I think it's pretty clear that some kinds of bike geometry are better for going down the hill and some are better for going up the hill. I'm just putting out the basics: being able to put your weight aftward relative to the axles gives you more control going downhill. Is that really in contention?

No it doesn't. No one is denying that "A skilled rider can make almost any bike work on a gravel descent". If I implied that, I didn't mean to.

pbass

Perhaps! I'm a noob about geometry so maybe it's psychological - that horizontal top tube and short head tube on the Cross Check makes the Rove ST simply look way different. But yeah, I'm sold on 650B for this kind of riding.

TimothyH

I didn't say it won't happen. I said it isn't necessary.

Crashing doesn't teach you how to ride (or ski or drive or fly) fast.


-Tim-

shelbyfv

Flying onto the ignore list....

tyrion

We're being too combative. I'm just trying to make the point that geometry does matter, and that there's spectrum a between geometries good for downhill geometries and not-good-for-downhill and it's fairly well understood.

Maybe it's simplistic but it's true.

gregf83 

Obviously the crashing doesn’t teach you anything but it is a natural consequence of riding/driving/skiing on, or close to, the ‘edge’. I take it you don’t ski?

trailangel

Apparently BACONSHAKES has never ridden an Enduro or Downhill specific MTB, as compared to a XC or standard trailbike.

TimothyH

You do if you are paying attention.

Motor vehicle tires let you know audibly. They squeal. Turn the radio off.

A tire begins to slide prior to completely breaking traction. The slide can be felt.

Good racers are able to push a vehicle slightly past the limits of adhesion so that the vehicle (car, bicycle, motorcycle) drifts slightly. I've done it with sports cars and have felt a road bicycle begin to drift when cornered hard. MTB and cross riders know how to ride past the tire's limit of adhesion and they do so on purpose. Then there is the whole "Drift" racing thing, which I don't really get, but their entire reason for existence is to drive past the limits of adhesion at all times without crashing.

Lots of examples of people who know the limits of adhesion without crashing.



-Tim-

redlude97

I know a lot of mtbers since they generally switch to cx in the fall and the saying goes "it's not if you crash, its when". Crashing is not the purpose but the result of riding past those limits regularly. Theres a reason why they generally wear more protection than road and gravel cyclists, its an inevitability.

gregf83 

You're watching guys who've already mastered their craft. That doesn't mean they didn't wipeout more than a few times while learning. No question you can improve and become a decent rider without pushing the limits, my approach by the way, but if you want to be competitive on technical courses spills are going to happen.

Driving a car and getting it to slide or drift a little on a corner is not the same as trying to improve lap times on a course filled with a variety of corners where you have to pick the right time to go from full throttle to 100% braking and pick the perfect line while keeping the car balanced. Get anything wrong and it's not hard to slip off the track.

Happy Feet

I know my last crash DH finally taught me to lower the seat enough

Recently I've been doing the same route with three bikes, A hardtail with and without suspension fork, a FS downhill bike and a fat bike.

Skill is, of course, the biggest factor but after that...

Wider tires on loose gravel help a lot to prevent sloughing.
Front suspension really takes out the jarring and the need to be worried (as much) about picking lines. It also helps to recover when you get it wrong.
A geometry that lowers the butt helps, whether that's a dropper post, doing it old school or bike design. With bike design you pay one way or the other (uphill or down).
You can go to wide on tires. Fat bike is fun but slower.
Full squish is weird in the way it rolls over everything but I'm still getting used to the slinky effect.

When riding a 26" vs a 700c the 700 beats me on the flats etc... but I win going down sketchy gravel. I'm pretty sure its because I have more confidence with the mtb geometry rather than the other eprson being in a road stance over the bars and because the wider tires track better.

trailangel

Chip-On-Shoulder syndrome

TimothyH

I agree with all of this.

yes, sometimes we crash. But it isn't necessary to learn to ride fast. Crashing isn't a requirement.


-Tim-

redlude97

So you're arguing semantics that requirement =/= inevitability. Can you name someone who is a good descender that has never crashed?

HarborBandS

Most "gravel bikes" seem to have the longer wheelbases and slack head angles that are supposedly designed to give confidence while descending. Just keep in mind that they are better for straight route descending, and not hairpin curves.

In a curvy downhill section, I actually prefer my road race bike (on the road) with a short wheelbase and a 73 degree head angle for snappy handling. There's nothing like leaning in to a curve on a "stable-geometry" bike and realizing the handling you need isn't baked in to the bike.

It's hard to tell from your photo what the radius is like on those curves, but if they are really gradual, you will probably be fine on a "typical" slack geometry gravel bike. But if not, there are gravel bikes like the Open U.P. that have snappier turning capability.

HarborBandS

Hah, definitely not around here!

A friend recently asked me to do the “Horribly Hilly Hundreds” in the driftless area of Wisconsin, and I couldn’t even think of any place to train for it.

TimothyH

I noticed this video on gravelcyclist.com.

Dave Zabriskie illustrates why smoking too many blunts is bad.

Jom's crash really wasn't necessary.



-Tim-

Yikesthedog

You are correct but skill and the bike are connected. The best possible tool for the job will depend on your skill today and also on what you are trying to achieve. I recognize you want to shave time off descending but is this a race scenario or are you looking to feel more confident? I would rip the descents on my endruro MTB but the time gain would far less than what I lose ascending I was racing. Wider tires with lower pressure, flared bars, slacker geometry & hydro brakes will all likely make you faster down but you may give up some uphill speed. Its a trade-off. That said if your skill level descending improves substantially, you may be able to go with a bike that slants more towards a road geometry and descend just as fast. Finding the happy medium is the key. Demo. some bikes if you can to see.

chas58

Long, low, slack. That is how to roll.

My bike is none of the 3. Its a blast to ride, but a handfull on long decents.

P.S. Appologies for the people answering their own question and ignoring what you are really after.

Not really. I mean, sure, if you define it like that.

But, it is the slow sections that ruin your average speed. Really really impact it.
1 second lost per minute on a 2 minute down hill vs a 10 minute uphill is well.... you do the math.
your average speed is going to take a BIG hit on the slow sections.

if you are averaging 5mph on the uphills (10 minutes), and 20mph on the down hills (for 2 minutes) - its the climbs that are going to kill your times.