db9091

Recently cracked a rib on a decent on a gravel road.

Most of the road was washed out, but at the bottom of the hill it was massed up and the wheel swamped.
I used to go through with 1.9" tires but was on 38mm and this was something I wasn't practiced on.
Add to that 90 degree turns, a tree in the middle of the pathway and the turn going onto a bridge which makes you look forward and not at the ground as much.
I handled the first swamp but the second I didn't handle and lost my balance. I kicked out of the pedals, the bike went right and I went left.
I'm used to rolling out of a fall between my shoulder and neck, but not at 15mph. And the 90 degree caused me to over torque and I fwomted onto my back ribside.
Heard a crack. Agony for a few minutes. Checked my shoulderblade. check. checks my rotator disc. check. Stood up, a little woozy.
My left arm had bad rash, bleeding all down the arm. Left knee, hip and shoulder had small spot rashes.
I walked to the other side of the trail and sat down by the bike to get my first aid spray and sanitize these areas.
Three STRAVA *******s rushed by me without an "are you ok" or nothing. Nice ppl. This was an XC trail. Mountain bikers have always stopped. Road bikers have always stopped.
So I'm painting XC cycling as the real *******s. Especially if they're men in their 20s as all three of these were.
Anywho, I got up, tested my arms on the handlebars. The pain felt just in the ribs, nothing internal (no deep ache, breathing was ok to an extent, not deep breething)
So I rode out the 10mi and got comfort food, got home, took 10mg Vicodin which did zero. Next day 60mg shot of Torodal is the only thing that worked. 10mg pills did Nada.
Had to go back for a 40mg shot to get to sleep the next day. Cyclobenzeprene helped with sleeping, but only lasts 3 days. Couldn't sleep in the bed for 2 weeks, luckily I have an EZ boy chair.

So, analysis: Wrong Tire Size for that swampy patch of Gravel. Definitely going too fast for my skill level (not checking speed enough) and perhaps I should have chosen the left side of the tree and not the closer cut?
As to the bike, IF it was full suspension, I'd have flown through there. ONLY on my Hard Tail do I crash most often and actually get hurt. Rarely ever got hurt on my Trek EX Fuel 8. Rarely ever on my road bike (specialized Roubaix) b/c I don't do crazy ****. But my Specialized Chisel's front suspension lulls me into thinking I can go crazy and the lack of ass balance skill causes me to get tossed.

So: 10% Bike 50% Skill Level 40% Experience in Gauging Correct Tactic

Bottom line: full suspension takes over for lack of skill. Hard tails require much actual skill. Thicker tires (tyres, haha) help but will slow you down noticeably over longer rides unless it's a very rocky trail, or snowy trail.

Irony? After taking 3 full weeks off before getting back on a bike, I'm actually stronger than before. I was thinking maybe, just maybe, if it takes me 2 weeks to get over a cold, maybe it takes 2 weeks for the legs to heal from always hitting the gym, cycling, jogging, swimming, every damned week. The time off was a powerful reminder that the human body needs time to heal and we should build in 4 days to 2 weeks off every once in a while to get noticeably stronger.

chas58

True. I’ve been learning about the whole fitness/fatigue thing inspired by the strava metrics. Clearly, I can be super fit, but also very fatigued. I feel it some days. But to prepare for a race or major event, taking a week off will pay great dividends in being fresh – able to go harder for longer.

Glad you healed from the rib. I literally rode off a mountain in Colorado once and then road the trail for another 2 hours to get back before I realized I had broken a rib. Its no fun, but is a good reason to take some time off.

db9091

Thanks! My first thing is to assess concussion. I gotta say, my helmets have saved my ass 3 times flat out. I was more loopy from pain than concussion. But it helps to mentally ask yourself what the last 6 presidents were. And if you hesitate or skip one, you're concussed. Call someone to drive you from the nearest road.

I think adrenaline got me out. Keeping on riding keeps thing limber. After a 1/2 hour in the car home, everything was tight and cramping. Which is why I ate first. I figured the pain later would keep me from eating. Comfort Food!

But I'm curious: "rode off a mountain". I've "rode off a bridge" (which truly was a dry spring bed about 2' deep and 4' wide so it just sounds scary in words) but a Mountain? That always sound scary! How far did you tumble?

TimothyH

Training Peaks visualizes fitness vs freshness very well.

You might want to try a free membership.

rumrunn6

I know it well. Wifey says it makes me grumpy

chas58

Yeah, I picked the wrong place to go over the handlebars as it launched me off the side of the mountain. Fortunately, it was wooded (soft-loamy) and very steep (so I could roll on landing). I pretty much tucked and rolled, but the vertical drop must have got me. I didn’t think much of it at the time (other than being very grateful I didn’t hit a tree). It was an epic ride (long, technically challenging and very physically challenging). I had burned a lot of energy riding up/down the mountain trying to find the trailhead as it had moved (that is my excuse at least, lol). But I didn’t know I had an issue until I got off the bike hours later and found that it hurt just to sit in a chair. Coughing, Sneezing, or laughing were out of the question. The helmet took a good hit but saved my noggin.

Rides4Beer

Glad you're healed up and back at it!

I learned this from running, have to schedule cutback weeks, can't just go hard all the time. I don't take the time completely off (unless I have to), but def have periods where I just go easy with no hard efforts and let my body recover.

63rickert

This was asked in context of racing. If racing do not fall. The advantage is one or two seconds. The downside is large. Racers don't take stupid chances. Or if they do they are the ones who lose.

gus6464

3 pages and not one single soul mentioned the one guaranteed thing to make you descend faster and safer. A dropper post.

TimothyH

How does a dropper post help?

im not trying to challenge but asking out of ignorance.


-Tim-

gus6464

A dropper post allows you to move your center of gravity behind the BB and also shifts your weight towards the back so you are not likely to OTB. Also lets you get lower closer to the frame for better control.

Happy Feet

I also mentioned it in post 43 but other than the people who did you're correct, no one did

63rickert

Dropper posts----

Most secure descending position is with butt way behind saddle and as low as possible. Low in this case means bike shorts as near to rear tire as possible. On road bikes this is done with chest resting on saddle. And doesn't much work offroad where corrrections are more frequent and visibility is less. But the principle applies. (I said most secure, not most common.)

Rear brake does little downhill and often does nothing downhill. Applying front brake sends rider over handlebar unless weight is shifted rear and down. Much easier to get low if saddle is not in the way. Of course if lazy and the situation is not demanding just sit on the saddle after sending dropper all the way down. Agile riders don't need droppers as much or as often as stiff or unskilled riders. Droppers are real useful for XC, not so much for gravel.

Dirt is always more predictable than pavement. Very few ever want to be drifting on pavement. Anyone can drift on dirt and gravel.

The need for any of this in a race situation is doubtful. Obvious example would be Federico Bahamontes, Angel of Toledo, who won TdF and many times TdF KoM even though he was terrified of descents and would do downhill hairpins dragging his shoe on ground. Races are rarely won or lost on descents.

blazin

Not sure how this thread went so wrong. OP is clearly asking for advice on attributes of a bike, not for a skills seminar.

I'll second/restate four things already mentioned:

- tires matter. Extra volume provides some suspension effect for getting over dashboards, ruts, etc. It also helps with traction by increasing contact patch. As descents get gnarlier, side knobs can further help keep traction in Corners when leaning the bike over. All of these require frames to have proper clearance. If you ride in places that are muddy, you need even more clearance. I would look at bikes that clear 700x40/650x47 minimum. 700x45/650x52 is even better.

- flared bars help. They widen your grip and give you a slightly more horizontal hand position, both of which increase control.

- dropper post helps. Let's you get your weight back.

- "suspension" can help. Something like the redshift stem can reduce the feeling that your bars are going to get out of your hands.

But, it seems that you really want bike geometry advice. This is an area that I'm still trying to learn about and master, but as far as I can gather the things that make a bike descend better include:

- slacker headtube angle;
- bigger bottom bracket drop (ie lower bottom bracket);
- longer reach (so shorter stem needed);
- shorter wheelbase

All of these come with trade-off in other areas of bike handling and riding. I don't know of gravel bikes that really go to extremes in any of these categories unles you start looking into more monster cross/mtb style frames like the Cutthroat.

Finally, I'm not convinced that this article comes to any deep or original conclusions, but is the most in-depth discussion of how bike geometry applies to gravel bikes that I have come across:

https://cyclingtips.com/2019/06/the-...avel-geometry/

ksryder

The first rule of BF is to never answer the question that was actually asked. It's time for opinions and tangents, baby!

blazin

fify

niknak

I agree with everything but the shorter wheelbase. If you push out the front wheel with a slacker head angle and longer front center and tuck in the rear wheel, it's going to be hard to weight the front wheel on descents when cornering unless you lean forward, which puts more pressure on your hands and upper body. By all means go with short chainstays if you plan to do a lot of bunny hopping. Otherwise a long wheelbase is better. By moving the rear wheel further back more rider weight is automatically placed on the front wheel, so the rider can descend in a more neutral position. Have a look at the Salsa Cutthroat. That thing is long and I bet it's super stable on descents. Short chainstays like narrow tires are just remnants of outdated road racing geo.

blazin

I should have said "shorter chainstays" rather than "shorter wheelbase."

While I take your point about bikes with longer wheelbase being more stable, that's at speed in a straight line. When I think of gravel descents I think of curvy roads and the need to avoid obstacles, whether by changing lines, bunny hopping, etc. Some of that maneuverability is given up by going with a slacker headtube angle and shorter stem. To make up for that, shorter chainstays can help. At least as I understand it. That is, I think, the direction a lot of XC geometry is revolving: slacker and longer in the front (both as a result of slacker headtube and longer reaches), but while trying to keep chainstays short.

It comes down, as always, to prioritization and preference. Even when it comes to descending there are different terrains and styles that might see you weigh different attributes differently.

Ultimately, though, I just don't know if there are big enough differences in geometries of currently available gravel bikes to really make that big a difference.

niknak

Very true. They're almost identical and nowhere near what they could be. I think the problem is that gravel bikes have evolved from road bikes. If instead the gravel bike started from the mountain bike world, I think they'd be a lot better. You'd have better gearing and component options and more progressive geometry. The mountain bike world has evolved so much in the past five years it's crazy. Long, slack, and low is standard. Steep seat tube angles are standard. 1x drivetrains are standard. Hydraulic disc brakes are standard. Dropper posts. Excellent tires. Fantastic suspension. Meanwhile road bikes and now gravel bikes are just kissing cousins. It's getting better, just slowly.

Rides4Beer

Experiment of one, but after watching the descending videos posted, I tried getting up off the seat and moving my weight back a lil (no dropper post, so can't get behind the seat) while staying in the drops and just letting the bike "float" while I stay loose. Made a huge difference. Will still take some more time to just continue to get used to the bike handling in gravel, but on yesterday's ride I was much more comfortable descending.