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Ride quality - carbon fiber vs aluminum?

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Ride quality - carbon fiber vs aluminum?

Old 11-02-19, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Helderberg View Post
The test bike was not underinflated. The psi was within spec. My observation was what a difference tire pressure and a different tire for that matter can make in the feel of the bike. The tires were not under inflated at all. If I gave that impression I am sorry. I just run my tires in the upper range and the test bike was in the lower range. That is all.
Frank.
Now put the skinnier tire on a carbon bike. It's more comfortable than the fat tire on the aluminum frame.

Or put the bigger tire on the Carbon frame for a win/win
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Old 11-02-19, 06:41 PM
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Steel is real.
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Old 11-02-19, 06:44 PM
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Originally Posted by gus6464 View Post
Steel is real.
real heavy.

sometimes that could be an advantage though. It gets bounced around less than a lighter bike.
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Old 11-03-19, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Metieval View Post
Tire pressure should be ran at the PSI that gives you the best roll resistance (roll out) for your all up weight. Sometimes for traction reasons, a rider is willing to take a hit on RR.

If you have to run a lower pressure to makes your bike comfortable.. you're just putting a bandage on a bad frame.
sometimes people lower the PSI a bit based on the condition of the gravel theyíre riding that day. If youíre riding chunky or rooty routes no bike is going to feel like riding on a cloud. So lowering the PSI a bit does not necessarily mean theyíre compensating for a bad frame
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Old 11-03-19, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Metieval View Post
real heavy.

sometimes that could be an advantage though. It gets bounced around less than a lighter bike.
my steel bike is definitely heavy. Once I get up to speed itís fine especially on more flat routes. But when Iím trying to haul it up a hill or on some more technical sections of a route I can feel the lack of nimbleness in the bike.
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Old 11-03-19, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by biketampa View Post
sometimes people lower the PSI a bit based on the condition of the gravel theyíre riding that day. If youíre riding chunky or rooty routes no bike is going to feel like riding on a cloud. So lowering the PSI a bit does not necessarily mean theyíre compensating for a bad frame
Was the argument to lower psi to cover chunky or rooty? Or was the argument a wider tire with less PSI on the same frame, felt better?

please follow the context of the conversation.
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Old 11-03-19, 06:31 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Metieval View Post
Was the argument to lower psi to cover chunky or rooty? Or was the argument a wider tire with less PSI on the same frame, felt better?

please follow the context of the conversation.
Iím not sure what youíre arguing. Of course, lower the psi on ANY bike regardless of good or bad frame can make it feel better. Just because it feels better at a lower psi doesnít mean itís covering for a bad frame.
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Old 11-03-19, 06:36 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by biketampa View Post
I’m not sure what you’re arguing.
Unlike Jim , I won't take the time to set up 5+ quotes in sequence because some people can't read in sequence. that's on you!

Bottom line

for the same PSI, the Same Tire, the Same wheel, the same damn Rider, on the same day, at the same weight, with the same damn Pasta in his gut, and half digested cheeseburger in his intestine on the same rooty chunky paved, gravel dirt sand, pavers, concrete, blacktop, clay......

the Carbon topstone will > that the aluminum topstone version

the same goes for the Niner RLT RDO vs alloy too. And any other bike model offered in multiple flavors.


So PSI and width is irrelevant to the Topic!


It's like hey what's faster a malibu or a corvette? uhhh wait I have NOS in the Malibu!!!

Last edited by Metieval; 11-03-19 at 06:42 AM.
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Old 11-03-19, 11:41 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Metieval View Post
Unlike Jim , I won't take the time to set up 5+ quotes in sequence because some people can't read in sequence. that's on you!

Bottom line

for the same PSI, the Same Tire, the Same wheel, the same damn Rider, on the same day, at the same weight, with the same damn Pasta in his gut, and half digested cheeseburger in his intestine on the same rooty chunky paved, gravel dirt sand, pavers, concrete, blacktop, clay......

the Carbon topstone will > that the aluminum topstone version

the same goes for the Niner RLT RDO vs alloy too. And any other bike model offered in multiple flavors.


So PSI and width is irrelevant to the Topic!


It's like hey what's faster a malibu or a corvette? uhhh wait I have NOS in the Malibu!!!
I think it would be hard to argue that aluminum will ever feel better than carbon unless itís some really crap carbon frame. I get what youíre saying regarding PSI. I have aluminum and carbon road bikes. With same PSI, same tires, same paved road both bikes probably feel similar enough but sure if I really tuned into what I was feeling Iím sure the carbon bike would feel better. Iím guessing on gravel the difference would be far more noticeable
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Old 11-03-19, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by biketampa View Post
Iím guessing on gravel the difference would be far more noticeable
Yep. Gravel is where Carbon fiber really acceleratesd in advantage over aluminum and steel because of the unique advantages with carbon of greatly varying stiffness and compliance in different directions. For road, Carbon can have a large weight advantage and stiffnedd advantage over other materials, but the ride quialty differences compared to other materials is not as magnified as it is on gravel. Gravel is where good carbon frames really make massive difference.
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Old 11-03-19, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
There are nice aluminum gravel bikes out there. But you tend not to hear about them, because they get drowned out by the carbon fiber marketing crowd with made up percentages about "compliance".

There had better be a difference between a $3,000USD OpenUP frameset and a cheapo $500 Trek frameset. It is like comparing a bike made from steel stove pipe and one made from Reynolds 900 stainless steel. Compare apples and apples.
Absolutely, there are just a few, and you hardky ever see them. One that stands out is the Mercx which is a great gravel bike with an aluminum frame. But is is as expensive as a decent carbon gravel bike, a little heavier, but close in ride quality to some good gravel carbon frames. I rode a Mercx for a couple of days as a demo and really liked it. I liked it, but I (and just about everyobe else) would buy a good carbon frame gravel bike first. This is informed consumer choice and getting the most for what you spend, not Mercks getting drowned out by the other big guys with carbon frames.

Not sure what you are referring to with "made up percentages about compliance though?" Can you elaborate?
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Old 11-03-19, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by biketampa View Post
I think it would be hard to argue that aluminum will ever feel better than carbon unless itís some really crap carbon frame. I get what youíre saying regarding PSI. I have aluminum and carbon road bikes. With same PSI, same tires, same paved road both bikes probably feel similar enough but sure if I really tuned into what I was feeling Iím sure the carbon bike would feel better. Iím guessing on gravel the difference would be far more noticeable
"feel" is a funny thing though, because on a road bike. I like the feel of some aluminum bikes better than Carbon. (depending on the pavement) Carbon is too muted sometimes. yet when it comes to chip-n-seal roads. Carbon is better than any aluminum frame. With all else being equal except material.

This is between say a CAAD12 vs supersix which are identical frames. I would have chosen the caad12, but I ride too much chip n seal so I went supersix.
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Old 11-04-19, 03:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Spoonrobot View Post
All the springs in a bike stack together and one can have an outsize effect on all the others. The frame matters as much as the tires and the frame/fork combined much more so. Aluminum frames took a big step back once they started being hydroformed into non-round or ror shapes. The boxier hydroformed tubing did not take well to traditional butting profiles so many aluminum gravel frames are heavier and stiffer than they would otherwise need to be. Conversely, carbon fiber layup technologies are much better than even just a few years ago. IME most carbon bikes are going to ride better than the aluminum version, all things being equal. $1000 better? That's probably something the individual buyer needs to decide.
Originally Posted by Metieval View Post
Unlike Jim , I won't take the time to set up 5+ quotes in sequence because some people can't read in sequence. that's on you!

Bottom line

for the same PSI, the Same Tire, the Same wheel, the same damn Rider, on the same day, at the same weight, with the same damn Pasta in his gut, and half digested cheeseburger in his intestine on the same rooty chunky paved, gravel dirt sand, pavers, concrete, blacktop, clay......

the Carbon topstone will > that the aluminum topstone version

the same goes for the Niner RLT RDO vs alloy too. And any other bike model offered in multiple flavors.


So PSI and width is irrelevant to the Topic!


It's like hey what's faster a malibu or a corvette? uhhh wait I have NOS in the Malibu!!!
Since this was one of the first responses, I'm guessing a lot of people are responding to this. I'd still argue tires and psi are at least 2-3x more important in terms of ride quality of gravel than frame material.
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Old 11-04-19, 05:04 PM
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subject title "Ride quality - carbon fiber vs aluminum?"

What really makes the difference in your ride after you run the same tires , the same psi, the same wheels. The frame does!
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Old 11-05-19, 09:00 AM
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How to start an argument.


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Old 11-05-19, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by csrpenfab View Post
Well said. I'm 52, and for years rode ultra stiff aluminum framed road bikes. The jarring didn't both me much in my 30's! I used to ride my stiff Giant AL framed gravel bike across a few miles of washboard on the trail near my house, and it would literally jar my fillings loose! On my carbon Niner, I find myself riding faster on that same stretch and the bumps almost vanish. Sometimes I'm amazing at how stable and solid this bike is over the rough stuff.

That s a good example. When we were in our 30's, bikes were super stiff. That was how we rolled. I used to really suffer over washboard. The other day I was going over some really nasty washboard, on 32mm tires, and was shocked at how fast and smooth my bike was. My bike is super stiff on acceleration, but at 20mph it just glided over the washboard. Amazing.
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Old 11-05-19, 09:25 AM
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Originally Posted by biketampa View Post
thanks. I see a lot of posts saying it doesnít matter since gravel tires tend to be much larger.
Specifically, bikes today typically have a stiffness range of 70-425 N/mm (source German TOUR magazine test). A 23mm tire at 116psi is about 150N/mm. You can take that tire number down pretty low (heck a 28mm tire is going to be 1/2 of that). So yeah, the tire is doing a lot of the absorption.

I've ridden a stiff frame with compliant tires and active suspension seatpost - and that worked pretty darn well. My carbon bike doesn't need the active seat post and still rides better. So, there's that...

Hope this discussion is helping ya...
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Old 11-05-19, 09:27 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by biketampa View Post
my steel bike is definitely heavy. Once I get up to speed itís fine especially on more flat routes. But when Iím trying to haul it up a hill or on some more technical sections of a route I can feel the lack of nimbleness in the bike.
Prime candidate for a new bike. That sums up the difference pretty well. your bike is great for long rides at moderate power output, but isn't going to be nimble, accelerate well, or climb a hill particularly well.
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Old 11-05-19, 09:39 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by chas58 View Post
Prime candidate for a new bike. That sums up the difference pretty well. your bike is great for long rides at moderate power output, but isn't going to be nimble, accelerate well, or climb a hill particularly well.
definitely. that's what I'm trying to determine. may get through next year with my current bike. or I may cave. giant revolt advanced is a prime candidate at this point. but that was where I was evaluating carbon vs aluminum and if I would be okay with aluminum.
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Old 11-05-19, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by biketampa View Post
definitely. that's what I'm trying to determine. may get through next year with my current bike. or I may cave. giant revolt advanced is a prime candidate at this point. but that was where I was evaluating carbon vs aluminum and if I would be okay with aluminum.

You can make any of these materials soft and heavy (relatively), or light and stiff.

With two "good" frames, you have more design freedom with Carbon vs Aluminum (in making a frame comfortable and responsive). So all things equal (and similar design goals), the carbon should have a better combination of comfort, responsiveness, and weight.

I would be as (or more) concerned with Geometry rather than material

Generally you can get some of what you are looking for with a lighter bike, stiffer bike (in regards to power application, not ride), shorter chainstays, maybe a higher BB.

Some gravel bikes are more road oriented and have these characteristics. Cross bikes tend to have it naturally. Somewhere along that geometry continuum is the right bike for you. Your bike is a fairly far towards the touring/comfort side.

The article in this thread may give you some things to think about.
The cyclo-cross vs gravel conundrum: understanding the differences

Really though, once you narrow it down to the geometry and the bike model you are interested in - do what you can to test ride the Aluminum and the Carbon version. Sometimes the difference is pretty obvious. If it is not obvious - you might be able to save some money. ;-)
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Old 11-05-19, 06:00 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
Since this was one of the first responses, I'm guessing a lot of people are responding to this. I'd still argue tires and psi are at least 2-3x more important in terms of ride quality of gravel than frame material.
I sort of agree; good tires at the right pressure maybe half of the ride quality, maybe a bit more than half, but not 2-3x more important than the frame (frame design and material). Great tires and a great frame together though are where you are getting to a really incredible bike. If you have same tires and pressure on a steel vs good carbon frame, the carbon combo will still easily outperform the steel when riding on gravel.
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Old 11-05-19, 06:37 PM
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Originally Posted by gravelslider View Post
I sort of agree; good tires at the right pressure maybe half of the ride quality, maybe a bit more than half, but not 2-3x more important than the frame (frame design and material). Great tires and a great frame together though are where you are getting to a really incredible bike. If you have same tires and pressure on a steel vs good carbon frame, the carbon combo will still easily outperform the steel when riding on gravel.
But nothing will overcome tires either too high in pressure, or too narrow, and frame material won't magically make those conditions where you are underbiked suddenly pleasant. I'd take an aluminum bike with 40mm tires and against a carbon bike with 33mm tires almost any day on gravel
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Old 11-05-19, 09:13 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
But nothing will overcome tires either too high in pressure, or too narrow, and frame material won't magically make those conditions where you are underbiked suddenly pleasant. I'd take an aluminum bike with 40mm tires and against a carbon bike with 33mm tires almost any day on gravel
been there done that, a carbon road bike on 28 tires was better than the aluminum gravel bike on 40's !!!
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Old 11-05-19, 10:06 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Metieval View Post
been there done that, a carbon road bike on 28 tires was better than the aluminum gravel bike on 40's !!!
As the current owner of 3 carbon bikes on 25-33mm tires and an aluminum bike on 40mm tires I disagree
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Old 11-05-19, 10:19 PM
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Going by perception, the worst jackhammer of a bicycle frame I've ever ridden was a carbon road racing bike, much worse than my aluminum-framed Emonda.

That says very little about any other frames in any material. Or about anything at all, really.

Going by perception, the least-lively-pedaling frame I've ever pedaled is steel. But so is the most-lively. I'm not sure what to make of that, but there are a lot of things that I won't make of it.
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