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Steel All-road frames

Old 11-04-19, 09:04 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Spoonrobot View Post
Word is the TA fittings and OS headtubes are behind the weight increase but I'm not sure that's all. I think butting profiles are being changed as well to account for disc brakes and collateral ISO testing. Either way most gravel bikes are now in a weird grey area where they a lot heavier than road bikes, not much less than mountain frames but without the capability. A divergence for another thread maybe, it's my personal windmill this season. Bike weights for off-road road bikes are too high!
100% agree.

One thing about the Black Mountain is that like many Somas, it isnt a 44mm head tube. That alone saves some weight and with a steel fork a huge head tube isnt needed. I haven't found a modern 1 1/8 steel steerer to flex too much at all.


I would be fascinated to listed to bike insiders explain the fatigue and safety testing that goes into frame certification. The amount of beefing up frames is significant.
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Old 11-04-19, 09:08 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by DanBell View Post
Page 75 in here. A friend of mine has the Strael, their more road-oriented offering. It's a fantastic bike.
Geez no wonder I couldn't find it.

Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
The faran geometry info is here-
https://fairlightcycles.com/faran/fa...v=7516fd43adaa

Some general Faran info is here- https://fairlightcycles.com/faran/?v=7516fd43adaa

And concept/design notes(story behind the build) is here- https://fairlightcycles.com/faran-co...v=7516fd43adaa

With all this said, it looks like the Faran is out of stock right now. If you email the company, Dom(an owner and main designer) or someone will usually reply within a business day, if not the same day. They continually resupply the Secan and Strael(beautiful road frame) frames thru the year, so I would think they would have a date for the Faran too.



Curious- what do you like about your Windsor when compared to the Raleigh or Cannondale? You mentioned the Windsor is fun to ride and opened eyes. I'm guessing it has a lot more flex compared to your other bikes, based on the traditional tubing diameters.


Also, I've only been mentioning the Faran since it's a steel frame and fork. The Secan is a full carbon fork and about $1250 for the frame, fork, thru axles, headset, and seat collar.
Just clarifying since you mention the Secan in response to my post on the Faran(similar seeming names for sure).
Yep you guessed it, way more flex. Almost too much in the front end tbh. It's a limp noodle. Makes for a compliant ride but it sure isn't confidence inspiring in the handling department. Part of me wishes I had kept the Tamland, that really was a fantastic bike.

I think for the price of the Secan I'd just go with an All City since I can ride one here in town and support the lbs and be supported. To make this make sense the frame/fork has to be as cheap as possible.
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Old 11-04-19, 09:18 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
I would be fascinated to listed to bike insiders explain the fatigue and safety testing that goes into frame certification. The amount of beefing up frames is significant.
I haven't seen anyone talk about it comprehensively or really openly at all. Tom Ritchey did an interview a while back where he addressed it high level and the new owner of Velo Orange posted some comments on the IBOB or 650b Google Group but he's been mum now that the new pass hunter is all OS. I think it's a combination of ISO updating for disc brakes, rider weight increasing as demands on off-pavement frame/forks increases at the same time, TA being relatively new and a few high value legal proceedings.

This is the interview with Tom Ritchey, sorry I don't remember where the comments are re:ISO but it's worth a listen entirely if you have the time:
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Old 11-05-19, 09:19 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Spoonrobot View Post
My 52cm Fog Cutter was 4.25lbs for the frame and 2.2lbs for the fork with 230mm of steerer.
FWIW Soma lists the carbon version of the Fog Cutter fork at about 775g, saves a touch a weight.

Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post

All City Spacehorse is a full steel frameset for a reasonable price and comes in 3 colors.
Space Horse is awesome and owners sing their praises, but the frameset alone comes only in cream (which isn't a bad thing...)
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Old 11-05-19, 09:41 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Smitty2k1 View Post
Space Horse is awesome and owners sing their praises, but the frameset alone comes only in cream (which isn't a bad thing...)
Oh, good point. That may explain why I see so many retro cream Space Horse bikes too- many build em up instead of buy stock and its the only color available.
It'd be neat if the others were available too though. Sorta like how the ZigZag isnt available in purple as a frame.
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Old 11-05-19, 09:42 AM
  #31  
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It sucks that production steel bikes are generally so overbuilt these days, makes the "steel is real...heavy" thing a self-fulfilling prophecy. @Spoonrobot, could you say more about the "high value legal proceedings"? Where there some frame failures that have the manufacturers scared?

I remember a few posts in the Framebuilders forum about how the testing puts unusual forces on forks, but I'd have to dig.

Seems like you have to go vintage or custom to get lightweight steel...
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Old 11-05-19, 11:23 AM
  #32  
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I don't think it's the frames that are the issue, it's the other items being updated and having an outsize effect. Like full-carbon forks for off-road bikes almost require an OS steerer to meet testing requires a OS headtube which requires a different TT/DT butting profile. All of which is stiffer and heavier. It's funny because the marketing for carbon road race bikes for so long was trumpeting "X% stiffer than last years model!" and now it's steel allroad bikes getting updated and the marketing is "Tapered steerer but it's just as compliant!"

I was thinking specifically of the Trek QR lawsuit, the Cannondale fork one that's currently in litigation and the nexus found to include Giant Taiwan in a domestic product liability case in the USA a few years ago. There was some wheel ejection lawsuit(s) as well but I can't remember enough pertinent info to find the ones I was thinking of. I don't have access to any closed source information just stuff that's out there in the open.
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Old 11-05-19, 11:48 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Spoonrobot View Post
This is the interview with Tom Ritchey, sorry I don't remember where the comments are re:ISO but it's worth a listen entirely if you have the time:
Thanks for the suggestion- ive seen it before. There is a frustratingly limited amount of worthwhile youtube content featuring Ritchey for someone who really loves the history of him/his company when put into context and comparison with the market.
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Old 11-05-19, 12:54 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Spoonrobot View Post
I don't think it's the frames that are the issue, it's the other items being updated and having an outsize effect. Like full-carbon forks for off-road bikes almost require an OS steerer to meet testing requires a OS headtube which requires a different TT/DT butting profile. All of which is stiffer and heavier. It's funny because the marketing for carbon road race bikes for so long was trumpeting "X% stiffer than last years model!" and now it's steel allroad bikes getting updated and the marketing is "Tapered steerer but it's just as compliant!"

I was thinking specifically of the Trek QR lawsuit, the Cannondale fork one that's currently in litigation and the nexus found to include Giant Taiwan in a domestic product liability case in the USA a few years ago. There was some wheel ejection lawsuit(s) as well but I can't remember enough pertinent info to find the ones I was thinking of. I don't have access to any closed source information just stuff that's out there in the open.
Ah, gotcha! I do think that preventing ejections is good enough reason to have a TA in front, as for the other stuff...

Kinda reminds me of hardware/software in computers: they develop faster processors and better memory to cope with more complex code, code bloats because it can, requiring better hardware...


FWIW, here's the thread I was thinking of with regard to tests driving heavier frames. I'm not sure it actually says what I thought it did, but I was getting frustrated when I couldn't find it right away. Broken Downtube in ISO test
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Old 11-05-19, 06:41 PM
  #35  
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Bros! did you all see the Rodeo Labs Flaanimal 5.0? I'm in love!
https://bikepacking.com/news/rodeo-labs-flaanimal-5/
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Old 11-06-19, 03:23 PM
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https://us.ritcheylogic.com/us_en/outback-frameset

So if you are now looking at steel frames with a carbon fork that are 'roadish' geometry like your Windsor- maybe this would work for you.

It clears 40mm tires, has a lower A-C than most gravel frames so it isnt as 'perched', the geometry definitely wont be upright riding, its relatively light overall, and the front end uses a 1 1/8 steerer instead of the large tapered steerers that are common now. The smaller steerer means a stiffer front end than your Windsor, but not as stiff as the 44mm or tapered head tubes on almost all other steel gravel frames. And geometry definitely is more road oriented with 72-23degree head tube angles, about 66mm of trail, and 73-74 degree seat tube angles.
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Old 11-06-19, 04:44 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
https://us.ritcheylogic.com/us_en/outback-frameset

So if you are now looking at steel frames with a carbon fork that are 'roadish' geometry like your Windsor- maybe this would work for you.

It clears 40mm tires, has a lower A-C than most gravel frames so it isnt as 'perched', the geometry definitely wont be upright riding, its relatively light overall, and the front end uses a 1 1/8 steerer instead of the large tapered steerers that are common now. The smaller steerer means a stiffer front end than your Windsor, but not as stiff as the 44mm or tapered head tubes on almost all other steel gravel frames. And geometry definitely is more road oriented with 72-23degree head tube angles, about 66mm of trail, and 73-74 degree seat tube angles.
The perfect retro-grouch bike. I'm in love!

(oops, no canti's. Can't have everything a retro-grouch wants).
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Old 11-06-19, 08:59 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
https://us.ritcheylogic.com/us_en/outback-frameset

So if you are now looking at steel frames with a carbon fork that are 'roadish' geometry like your Windsor- maybe this would work for you.

It clears 40mm tires, has a lower A-C than most gravel frames so it isnt as 'perched', the geometry definitely wont be upright riding, its relatively light overall, and the front end uses a 1 1/8 steerer instead of the large tapered steerers that are common now. The smaller steerer means a stiffer front end than your Windsor, but not as stiff as the 44mm or tapered head tubes on almost all other steel gravel frames. And geometry definitely is more road oriented with 72-23degree head tube angles, about 66mm of trail, and 73-74 degree seat tube angles.
Yep. Totes agree. And have thought about it many times. When I find one of the teal framesets for sale at a good price I probably won't be able to say no.
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Old 11-06-19, 09:09 PM
  #39  
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OP, have a look at Gunnar. If you fit on their off-the-rack geometry, the frames are fairly reasonable and are available with steel or cf forks. And they have models to fit various "all road" tire sizes, right up to the Hyper-X which will take 700x42.

However, to jump on a theme others have started, that Hyper-X is a beefy frame. Mine is a 58 (custom geo) with 44mm headtube, T/As, and disc brakes, and it's both heavier and stiffer than expected.
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Old 11-07-19, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
OP, have a look at Gunnar. If you fit on their off-the-rack geometry, the frames are fairly reasonable and are available with steel or cf forks. And they have models to fit various "all road" tire sizes, right up to the Hyper-X which will take 700x42.

However, to jump on a theme others have started, that Hyper-X is a beefy frame. Mine is a 58 (custom geo) with 44mm headtube, T/As, and disc brakes, and it's both heavier and stiffer than expected.
Yeah I've looked at them several times and I don't think they're my jam. Thx tho!
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Old 11-07-19, 03:21 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by shoota View Post
Part of me wishes I had kept the Tamland, that really was a fantastic bike.
Well, I've been unable to sell my size 56....
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Old 11-07-19, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
Well, I've been unable to sell my size 56....
Selling bikes is so hard right now. The market is absolutely flooded.
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Old 12-01-19, 07:16 PM
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Originally Posted by dpicare26 View Post
I've been intrigued by BikesDirect 853 Gravel frameset.

Full Reynolds 853. Disc, thru axels, says capable of 700c*40.

Edit: Fork is Carbon
Man, if they offered the purple one in the build kit... whoooo boy
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Old 12-01-19, 08:50 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by shoota View Post
Selling bikes is so hard right now. The market is absolutely flooded.
If you have a decentbike and ask a reasonable price I think good used bikes move quickly, especially a gravel bike. The Tariffs on new bikes are making the used ones look much more attractive..
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Old 12-01-19, 11:08 PM
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Originally Posted by dwmckee View Post
If you have a decentbike and ask a reasonable price I think good used bikes move quickly, especially a gravel bike. The Tariffs on new bikes are making the used ones look much more attractive..
Some gravel models are scarce right now. My shop told me they get at least one call per day asking if they have Rove ST's. Apparently Kona has them on backorder until April 2020.
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