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Hambini vs Open UP frame

Old 07-09-20, 01:59 PM
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gus6464
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Hambini vs Open UP frame

Quite hilarious actually


One side of the BB is too small and the other is too large plus other goodies. There was basically no QC done to the thing.

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Old 07-09-20, 02:23 PM
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Ill have to watch/listen to this tomorrow during slow points of work for some laughs. That guy is such a dick that its funny at times.
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Old 07-09-20, 03:12 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
Ill have to watch/listen to this tomorrow during slow points of work for some laughs. That guy is such a dick that its funny at times.
He is but he really knows what he's talking about. For example in the video he explains what voids are and why they are bad and uses a real world example of the issues it can have on an aircraft for example. At the end of the day I will trust his engineering expertise over any engineer that works in the bike industry. I loved his video on manufacturing tolerances and how the bike industry gets away with manufacturing what basically amounts to rejects in any other industry.
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Old 07-09-20, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by gus6464 View Post
He is but he really knows what he's talking about. For example in the video he explains what voids are and why they are bad and uses a real world example of the issues it can have on an aircraft for example. At the end of the day I will trust his engineering expertise over any engineer that works in the bike industry. I loved his video on manufacturing tolerances and how the bike industry gets away with manufacturing what basically amounts to rejects in any other industry.
I didnt wait, watching it now. He is just such a mess that its awesome. His fumbling with the laser on the powerpoint was great.
But to the nuts and bolts of it- yeah it was interesting to see the explanation of voids(the equations went right over me) and the BB variance on that frame is nuts. He has always hated on Cervelo for it's loose tolerances so the Cervelo - OPEN connection is funny.

ETA- odd that he mentioned multiple times that he didnt know why the DS chainstay is dropped.
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Old 07-09-20, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
I didnt wait, watching it now. He is just such a mess that its awesome. His fumbling with the laser on the powerpoint was great.
But to the nuts and bolts of it- yeah it was interesting to see the explanation of voids(the equations went right over me) and the BB variance on that frame is nuts. He has always hated on Cervelo for it's loose tolerances so the Cervelo - OPEN connection is funny.

ETA- odd that he mentioned multiple times that he didnt know why the DS chainstay is dropped.
He's not a gravel guy so that makes sense. Although I definitely did not know that you need to be very careful when laying up dropped stays but it makes sense. For example my Kona XC bike has a dropped chainstay but it's done a at the yoke so the layup stays straight. So instead of the yoke being parallel to the ground it slants downward. I'm curious now as to why not use that method instead of the drop swoop as it maintains stiffness in the chainstay.
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Old 07-09-20, 04:18 PM
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Originally Posted by gus6464 View Post
Quite hilarious actually

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qCgpVv07gUk

One side of the BB is too small and the other is too large plus other goodies. There was basically no QC done to the thing.
the small adhd gentleman is a tad crazy. anyone hear neg news on this frame?
Bueller?!
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Old 07-09-20, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by thehammerdog View Post
the small adhd gentleman is a tad crazy. anyone hear neg news on this frame?
Bueller?!
What does that have to do with anything? Do you check your BB for the right tolerance when you install it? Do reviewers do? That BB is garbage. Regular Joe will be blowing through bearings but everyone is conditioned in the bike industry that BBs are throwaway and should be replaced all the time. Cannondales have had creaky BBs for ages because of trash tolerances and yet you can't warranty one because of it because it's not covered. Instead, you are told to go out and get a new BB and get another when that one gets trashed too.

Plus let's not forget that the owner of the frame contacted Open before he sent the frame to Hambini and they blew him off. That alone speaks volumes.
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Old 07-09-20, 05:34 PM
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ABSOLUTELY THRASHED. And that's saying something coming from Hambini.
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Old 07-10-20, 10:25 PM
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Hambini does thrash most everyone. I do like to listen to what he says, but also look for corroboration with other sources. I also know quality measure is based on multiple random samples over time, not on highlighting a single worst example that bubbled up to the critic. Still. I am surprised the BB is so far out of spec on this one. Just about every reputable manufacturer will replace a frame if a dealer measures and documents an out of spec BB milling and this one should have been easy to document. I have emailed Open on three occasions and have had quick responses from either Kessler or Vroomen directly in each case. Possibly this was a used frame, or even a counterfeit with that wacky paint job! I have no idea how he detects voids, how reliable his method is, or what is considered normal or acceptable for voids. I ride an Open and have had no trouble at all with it and I know several other Open owners with no problems. I also see several top brands with numerous warranty issues as comparison. No good scientific evaluation can be based on a single sample or without broader sampling to determine frequency of defects. And ALL manufacturers do have defects...

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Old 07-11-20, 04:24 PM
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I watched that and I agree that the BB quality is not acceptable in any way. I'm not so sure about his claims that the frame is unsafe to ride. There are plenty of those frames getting ridden hard and I haven't seen any reports of failures. He may be a engineer, but his repeated statements about not understanding why the chainstay was dropped show that he doesn't know much about bicycle frame building.
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Old 07-12-20, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by dsaul View Post
I watched that and I agree that the BB quality is not acceptable in any way. I'm not so sure about his claims that the frame is unsafe to ride. There are plenty of those frames getting ridden hard and I haven't seen any reports of failures. He may be a engineer, but his repeated statements about not understanding why the chainstay was dropped show that he doesn't know much about bicycle frame building.
FWIW, iíve seen two or three mentions of broken UP frames on the paceline forum.
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Old 07-12-20, 07:51 PM
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We have two cracked Cannondale carbon frames, a defective Felt frame with a sheared chain stay and Specialized frame with a cracked BB shell on the wall in our shop to show people as examples of what can happen to a carbon frame. All of these frames were replaced under warranty as mfr defects and all are cut in half per manufacturer's instructions when replaced under warranty, but we saved the frame parts to show people. I am certain hundreds of defective carbon frames are replaced under warranty every year across the major brands. We have already completed two carbon frame warranty claims at our small shop this year alone. Is everyone under the assumption that that the big-brand frames are all somehow defect-free? Defects in carbon frames of one in a few thousand are quite normal with all brands. We sent 10 Warbird forks back to Salsa last spring under fear that there was a consistent defect in them. We also have seen two Trek aluminum frames completely shear around in the middle of the down tube at a stress point that is created at the internal butting and a Fuji steel touring bike with the weld cracking at the bottom bracket shell; I am sure those are manufacturing defects as well but we were not the shop that would be filing the warranty on those.

To be realistic about it, one random defect sent to Mr. Hambini and his ranting profanity about it hardly tells us anything about any brand. Everyone is just hoping Mr. Hambini does not let loose in a specimen of their own favorite bike next time while savoring the voyeuristic delights of his rants on all of the bikes they have not opted to purchase.

If he were a real "scientist" offering meaningful commentary on manufacturers he would have a scientific random sampling process and data on the ratio of defects to overall production runs, not providing comments on a single item and making assumptions about the entire brand from it. Every bike brand hat sells carbon bikes has defective carbon frames and Mr. Hambini's rans about a single case may help to make us all a bit more wary at the end of the day but they really tell us little about what to expect from any brand.

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Old 07-12-20, 08:23 PM
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There are defective frames that make it out of the facility because they look good and then crack later on, and then there is whats commonly on the Hambini site which are frsmes thst should have never made it out of the factory due to poor/loose standards.

dwmckee, of course some carbon frames will crack due to unseen voids and poor design, its the nature of how that material needs to be used to build a frame.
That doesnt excuse the poor tolerances for bottom brackets(what Hambini focuses on since he sells...bottom brackets. The poor tolerances for bottom brackets can be seen during the manufacturing process as well as afterwards during the bike build. Those making it out of the factories is due to laziness or low standards.
I have lost count over how many times I've read about cannondale relaxing their toleranes and cervelo doing the same, and i dont really seek out the info because I dont have much of an interest in the issue since I dont ride anything besides BSA BBs.
it shouldnt take the strength of gods to insert a bottom bracket. Conversely, a bottom bracket shouldn't be able to slip in without any effort. When either of these happen, it seems obvious that the manufacturer would check the bottom bracket shell.
Back to the relaxed tolerances though- thats an issue since it allows poorly manufactured bikes to go out the door.

Again, this is all stuff the manufacturer can see and can avoid. It isnt what you focused on, the unseen voids which can cause delamination and cracks.
Really, a hole that is not square with another hole can be seen. A hole that isnt round can be seen. A hole that doesnt allow a component to be fitted due to it being the wrong size can be seen.

Also, I dont remember Hambini claiming to be a scientist. He is, as far as I know, an engineer.

I get it, this was a video that ripped on the design and quality standards of your favorite frame. That can't be fun. But you seemed to have missed the big point- poor bottom bracket tolerances lead to most of the issues discussed in the video.
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Old 07-12-20, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by dwmckee View Post
We have two cracked Cannondale carbon frames, a defective Felt frame with a sheared chain stay and Specialized frame with a cracked BB shell on the wall in our shop to show people as examples of what can happen to a carbon frame. All of these frames were replaced under warranty as mfr defects and all are cut in half per manufacturer's instructions when replaced under warranty, but we saved the frame parts to show people. I am certain hundreds of defective carbon frames are replaced under warranty every year across the major brands. We have already completed two carbon frame warranty claims at our small shop this year alone. Is everyone under the assumption that that the big-brand frames are all somehow defect-free? Defects in carbon frames of one in a few thousand are quite normal with all brands. We sent 10 Warbird forks back to Salsa last spring under fear that there was a consistent defect in them. We also have seen two Trek aluminum frames completely shear around in the middle of the down tube at a stress point that is created at the internal butting and a Fuji steel touring bike with the weld cracking at the bottom bracket shell; I am sure those are manufacturing defects as well but we were not the shop that would be filing the warranty on those.

To be realistic about it, one random defect sent to Mr. Hambini and his ranting profanity about it hardly tells us anything about any brand. Everyone is just hoping Mr. Hambini does not let loose in a specimen of their own favorite bike next time while savoring the voyeuristic delights of his rants on all of the bikes they have not opted to purchase.

If he were a real "scientist" offering meaningful commentary on manufacturers he would have a scientific random sampling process and data on the ratio of defects to overall production runs, not providing comments on a single item and making assumptions about the entire brand from it. Every bike brand hat sells carbon bikes has defective carbon frames and Mr. Hambini's rans about a single case may help to make us all a bit more wary at the end of the day but they really tell us little about what to expect from any brand.
Yeah but he's hilarious!
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Old 07-13-20, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by dwmckee View Post
We have two cracked Cannondale carbon frames, a defective Felt frame with a sheared chain stay and Specialized frame with a cracked BB shell on the wall in our shop to show people as examples of what can happen to a carbon frame. All of these frames were replaced under warranty as mfr defects and all are cut in half per manufacturer's instructions when replaced under warranty, but we saved the frame parts to show people. I am certain hundreds of defective carbon frames are replaced under warranty every year across the major brands. We have already completed two carbon frame warranty claims at our small shop this year alone. Is everyone under the assumption that that the big-brand frames are all somehow defect-free? Defects in carbon frames of one in a few thousand are quite normal with all brands. We sent 10 Warbird forks back to Salsa last spring under fear that there was a consistent defect in them. We also have seen two Trek aluminum frames completely shear around in the middle of the down tube at a stress point that is created at the internal butting and a Fuji steel touring bike with the weld cracking at the bottom bracket shell; I am sure those are manufacturing defects as well but we were not the shop that would be filing the warranty on those.

To be realistic about it, one random defect sent to Mr. Hambini and his ranting profanity about it hardly tells us anything about any brand. Everyone is just hoping Mr. Hambini does not let loose in a specimen of their own favorite bike next time while savoring the voyeuristic delights of his rants on all of the bikes they have not opted to purchase.

If he were a real "scientist" offering meaningful commentary on manufacturers he would have a scientific random sampling process and data on the ratio of defects to overall production runs, not providing comments on a single item and making assumptions about the entire brand from it. Every bike brand hat sells carbon bikes has defective carbon frames and Mr. Hambini's rans about a single case may help to make us all a bit more wary at the end of the day but they really tell us little about what to expect from any brand.
That frame should have never left the factory period. If any type of QC was done even with a dirt cheap caliper the inspector could have seen that the BB is completely out of spec and alignment. We are talking about a $3000 frame here. As a customer I could give a crap that the other guy got a frame with BB to spec when I got one with a trash BB.
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Old 07-13-20, 12:58 PM
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Originally Posted by gus6464 View Post
That frame should have never left the factory period. If any type of QC was done even with a dirt cheap caliper the inspector could have seen that the BB is completely out of spec and alignment. We are talking about a $3000 frame here. As a customer I could give a crap that the other guy got a frame with BB to spec when I got one with a trash BB.
Preach! And then to top it off Open didn't want to warranty it. I can understand not checking every little detail of every frame that leaves the warehouse but at least own up to an obvious manufacturing defect and make it right.
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Old 07-13-20, 01:36 PM
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I wonder if OPEN realizes the cost of denying a warranty...this video is all over the place now. And as someone who just bought an UP, doesn't instill a lot of confidence....
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Old 07-13-20, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by basscadet View Post
I wonder if OPEN realizes the cost of denying a warranty...this video is all over the place now. And as someone who just bought an UP, doesn't instill a lot of confidence....
Second that. Maybe we’re the small minority but if I were experiencing any of those same BB issues, the first place I’d go would be google. Heck I google brands and customer reviews before I buy a toaster. All you need to see is a couple of bad reviews to start looking elsewhere.
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Old 07-13-20, 08:38 PM
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Originally Posted by dwmckee View Post
....
To be realistic about it, one random defect sent to Mr. Hambini and his ranting profanity about it hardly tells us anything about any brand. ....
Having had a fair bit of first hand experience in this area...the first thing it tells us is that the mfg likely doesn't grasp or fully embrace a robust statistical sampling program that would ID issues like this before they hit crisis-mode. The problem discussed here may well be a one-off, though it's much more common that good QA data collection and review would indicate issues in the mfg process that resulted in this frame.

Typically, with relatively small production volumes, the lack of a good sampling program results in 100% inspection...which would have caught this frame before it shipped. Since they didn't catch it, we'll have to assume they don't do 100% inspection(either). Given the selling price of their frames..it's fair to say they have a serious QA issue...which says a lot about the company. "...to those where much is given, much is expected.."

With the press this video is getting, the frame in question will likely be the most expensive frame they ever made.
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Old 07-13-20, 11:50 PM
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I'll add that Hambini has taken the crankset i use for my gravel and main road bikes to task- Praxis Zayante.
He went into great detail about bearing preload, the forces on bearings, etc and basically called the Praxis design total crap.

It was interesting to learn his view of why its total crap. I still love both cranksets and will use them for years to come, barring some crazy failure. But still, it was interesting to learn why he dislikes them.

Its unfortunate we defend that which we like, even when presented with details for why itnisnt as great as we think. But its understandable- you don't want to accept what you like as being inferior or unjustifiable.

again, voids in carbon should be minimized, bit it appears they are somewhat inevitable to a small degree. Not catching them is understandable since they can't be seen. But bottom bracket errors like holes not being round, not being parallel, not being aligned, and not being the proper size are all things that could be found out before selling the bike. This is especially true for improper size since that is easy to know.
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Old 07-14-20, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Wilbur76 View Post
Second that. Maybe we’re the small minority but if I were experiencing any of those same BB issues, the first place I’d go would be google. Heck I google brands and customer reviews before I buy a toaster. All you need to see is a couple of bad reviews to start looking elsewhere.

That is somewhat my point. At least get a few different reviews and get a look at the good ones too. One should not base a brand impression, positive or negative, on a single (and highly critical) critic.

I still say at least some of this is fishy as Open normally responds very quickly to comments, and with that horrible tolerance and bizarre paint job, could this be one of those counterfeits that the owner could not produce a legitimate dealer receipt for? Is it another rejected frame fished out of a dumpster and sold on ebay as legit direct from China? I am not denying what Hambini says, I am just questioning it.

Need more data!

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Old 07-14-20, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by gravelslider View Post
That is somewhat my point. At least get a few different reviews and get a look at the good ones too. One should not base a brand impression, positive or negative, on a single (and highly critical) critic.

I still say at least some of this is fishy as Open normally responds very quickly to comments, and with that horrible tolerance and bizarre paint job, could this be one of those counterfeits that the owner could not produce a legitimate dealer receipt for?

Need more data!
It's certainly possible.
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Old 07-15-20, 05:29 PM
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Originally Posted by shoota View Post
It's certainly possible.
I am just saying something does not add up here. Any manufacturer would warranty that frame and an Open dealer could easily mic it and determine it is out of spec to file a claim. For it to be that bad, and they do not respond, and that wacky paint job, and no details about where owner bought it... A warranty issue would be handled by the dealer that it was bought from; why not even try and go back to the dealer for resolution? And a good dealer would stand behind it even if Open did not to save face with a high-spending customer... Too many things just do not add up.. I am not trying to defend Open, but sounds like a distinct possibility this is a gray market or counterfeit frame that was bought on ebay, had problems and owner sent to Hambini without admiting the truth about how they acquired the frame.

Seriously, if you had a problem with a Specialized frame you would first take it back to where you bought it, not call Specialized. Of if you did call Specialized and did not get an answer you would go back to the dealer. Unless you bought it as a bargain on ebay shipped direct from China. Then maybe you take it to Hambini...

There are plenty of cases where high-end but defective parts are slipped out the back door of factories and sold on ebay as bargains direct from China. There is even an industry term for it - Gray Market... And also plenty of cases where people try to warranty all sorts of gray market purchases to resolve problems and hope the manufacturer will not realize the item is not a factory spec item. There are cases all of the time for carbon handlebars, seat posts, etc. sold on ebay...

Last edited by dwmckee; 07-15-20 at 09:52 PM.
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Old 07-15-20, 09:08 PM
  #24  
gus6464
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Originally Posted by dwmckee View Post
I am just saying something does not add up here. Any manufacturer would warranty that frame and an Open dealer could easily mic it and determine it is out of spec to file a claim. For it to be that bad, and they do not respond, and that wacky paint job, and no details about where owner bought it... A warranty issue would be handled by the dealer that it was bought from; why not even try and go back to the dealer for resolution? And a good dealer would stand behind it even if Open did not to save face with a high-spending customer... Too many things just do not add up.. I am not trying to defend Open, but sounds like a distinct possibility this is a gray market or counterfeit frame that was bought on ebay, had problems and owner sent to Hambini without admiting the truth about how they acquired the frame.

There are plenty of cases where high-end defective frames are slipped out the back door of factories and sold on ebay as bargains direct from China. There is even an industry term for it - Gray Market... Ansd also plenty of cases where people try to warranty gray market purchases to resolve problems and hope the manufacturer will not realize the item is not a factory spec item.
You clearly have not seen the video where Hambini talks about the tolerances of certain brands in relation to bottom brackets including Cannondale and Cervelo which surprise the open guys were a part of. Cervelo bb hole spec is something ludicrous like +-0.08 of a mm which would make this frame within their tolerances and thus not a warranty claim. As a matter of fact try to warranty any frame because of bb tolerance spec. You will be laughed out the door.

Funny how the fanboys immediately go to the frame is clearly counterfeit because of the color of all things when open themselves will sell you a raw unpainted frame you can paint to whatever you want.
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Old 07-15-20, 09:55 PM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by gus6464 View Post
You clearly have not seen the video where Hambini talks about the tolerances of certain brands in relation to bottom brackets including Cannondale and Cervelo which surprise the open guys were a part of. Cervelo bb hole spec is something ludicrous like +-0.08 of a mm which would make this frame within their tolerances and thus not a warranty claim. As a matter of fact try to warranty any frame because of bb tolerance spec. You will be laughed out the door.

Funny how the fanboys immediately go to the frame is clearly counterfeit because of the color of all things when open themselves will sell you a raw unpainted frame you can paint to whatever you want.
Then what is your explanation for why he did not take it back to where he bought it, like any of the rest of us would have?

Last edited by dwmckee; 07-17-20 at 06:06 PM.
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