Neo-retro vs modern bike
I am going to acquire a new do-it-all steel, singlespeed "monstercross" bike soon. I might have the opportunity for one of the following bikes:
What should I consider, knowing that I would want to ride this bike a long time and it's one of two bikes that I have the space and budget to own? |
Originally Posted by mack_turtle
(Post 21690945)
I am going to acquire a new do-it-all steel, singlespeed "monstercross" bike soon. I might have the opportunity for one of the following bikes:
What should I consider, knowing that I would want to ride this bike a long time and it's one of two bikes that I have the space and budget to own? Dave |
I don't know much about Van Dessel, but IMO, the Black Mountain Monster Cross Disc should also be on your list. Mike Varney is one of the single best guys in the bike industry, and working with him on my BMMC was an absolute pleasure. I went with cantis on mine, because I'm kind of a retro guy and I live in a dry climate and appreciate the familiarity and simplicity of the Paul Component Neo-Retros. But if I did get a bike with discs, I'd get one with thru axles, because of the additional stiffness they bring, especially to the fork; I can't stand rotor rub.
I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything by riding a canti bike with QRs. If I lived in the mountains I'd probably feel differently. |
Originally Posted by Rolla
(Post 21691147)
I don't know much about Van Dessel, but IMO, the Black Mountain Monster Cross Disc should also be on your list.
I've been at this "pick a bike" game for a few weeks and everything is either not available due to the pandemic or blows my budget out of the water. I could certainly live without thru-axles, but I wonder if the kind of riding I want to do might make me regret foregoing disc brakes. No mountains in central Texas and it's pretty dry most of the time, but I want to feel confident in foul weather and gravel racing. The donor CX bike I have in mind appears to have Chris King hubs and TRP Euromax brakes with Campy Record levers. |
Originally Posted by mack_turtle
(Post 21691182)
It would be, but setting it up singlespeed would be a pain in the butt. That's a deal-breaker for me.
Originally Posted by mack_turtle
(Post 21691182)
I've been at this "pick a bike" game for a few weeks and everything is either not available due to the pandemic or blows my budget out of the water.
Originally Posted by mack_turtle
(Post 21691182)
I could certainly live without thru-axles, but I wonder if the kind of riding I want to do might make me regret foregoing disc brakes. No mountains in central Texas and it's pretty dry most of the time, but I want to feel confident in foul weather and gravel racing.
It sure seems like a Chumba Terlingua checks all of your boxes. Helluva bike! :) |
Originally Posted by Rolla
(Post 21691326)
It sure seems like a Chumba Terlingua checks all of your boxes. Helluva bike! :)
I join some gravel races occasionally but not competitively. I am sure the brakes don't matter much for competition until you reach elite levels, and that's not for me. I participate in these races purely to have fun and challenge myself. my main goal for a bike like this is long, fun, exploring rides where I ride around my local roads and singletrack, trying to find the most interesting way to hidden trails, obscure roads, and bike paths. the brake concern is more of long-term durability and value. I don't want to pigeonhole myself into something that costs more to maintain in the long run. |
I don't think I could go back to riding a bike with cantilevers as my main bike bombing down steep descents and dirt B-roads. Looking back and what I did on a bike with crummy brakes, I am honestly pretty shocked things didn't end badly at least once.
Like you, I also do gravel races for fun, and to have a goal to maintain a good level of fitness instead of lollygagging all the time during adventure type rides. I think it's just common sense to have maximum control of your bike if you ride in the bunches that happen at these events, and also being realistic about not taking it easy on every decent if you don't have confidence in your brakes. |
I've had a rim brake Black Mountain for over 4 years now and love it. Its no longer my gravel frame, but I can't see getting g rid of it.
I turned it into a commute/touring bike and since covid shut down me using it in that capacity, I turned it into a single speed for flat twisty singletrack. I get that disc brakes are better in most measurable ways. My current gravel frame is disc. But I have never thought twice about how i ride that frame. I am 215# and can ride it with gear and it stops me perfectly. My canti brakes are '80s Suntour even. You mention you are concerned with not having modern options, which is totally understandable, but there really isnt much progression of tech when it comes to a singlespeed bike. Basically, its just the brakes. Thats the only tech that has updated. I guess brakes come down to the terrain you ride. Mine is a mix of rolling, flat,, and short steep climbs. Plenty of overall climb, but no multi-mile descents. Cantis have been great. Oh, and Varley is awesome. |
Originally Posted by mack_turtle
(Post 21691447)
my main goal for a bike like this is long, fun, exploring rides where I ride around my local roads and singletrack, trying to find the most interesting way to hidden trails, obscure roads, and bike paths. the brake concern is more of long-term durability and value.
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I have two bikes - a geared 2019 Rove ST w discs, and a singlespeed Cross Check with rim brakes. I ride them both in the same conditions, terrain, etc. No problem with the rim brakes stopping me, including on some pretty long, hot SoCal fireroad descents. Doesn't get very wet here though, admittedly.
You mention it will be one of a two bike quiver? I really like having a "modern" geared gravel bike, and a more retro singlespeed. To me it's sort of a perfect duo! |
Originally Posted by pbass
(Post 21693493)
You mention it will be one of a two bike quiver? I really like having a "modern" geared gravel bike, and a more retro singlespeed. To me it's sort of a perfect duo!
I am currently considering a Twin Six Standard Rando or a Van Dessel WTF. each could be converted to SS with an PF30 BB eccentric adapter. So far, Twin Six is working with me to build a semi-custom bike with SS parts. I am waiting to hear if Van Dessel will do something similar. |
What about a Surly Cross Check? I wanted a BMC Monstercross but didn't like the most recent yellow color, and the older blue and green ones were sold out in my size by the time I got hip to Black Mountain Cycles.
I ended up finding a used, complete Cross Check on craigslist for less than the cost of a Monstercross frame and shipping...and for the price, I won't complain (much) about the color I ended up with. As for parts, I can't imagine cantilever brakes and parts will become impossible to find for a very long time...certainly longer than my remaining cycling years, I figure. |
A lot of bikes in the Facebook Rohloff group seem to be 'monstercross' .. 29er plus , with drop bars or not..
they're not single speed because unlike Austin Texas, Germany, Belgium etc, has a lot of un flat or barely hilly areas .. |
Originally Posted by Squeeze
(Post 21693912)
What about a Surly Cross Check?
as cool as that still sounds, I think I can move ahead toward a more modern bike. |
Originally Posted by mack_turtle
(Post 21693980)
I, I keep looking at the geometry of the CC and I can't figure out how I would get it to fit me. I think it's the tiny little head tubes they put on that frame. sizing from ETT, I'd have to put a short, super upright stem and a giant stack of spacers on on a 52cm frame, or a slightly less absurd stack on a 54.
Here's a Cross Check compared to a Monster Cross: https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...74ec815c38.png |
If you're interested in steel, the Soma Wolverine (A type) is an under-the-radar frameset that checks most of the boxes. Really nice Tange Prestige frame with sliding dropouts (geared or single speed), contemporary gravel geometry, doesn't cost a fortune. The one problem with it is that it uses obsolete IS brake mounts, so you'd have to run IS to post, which is also becoming obsolete.
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I ride an old Voodoo Wazoo that's basically gravel before it was a thing. It's not appreciably different than a modern canti and QR gravel bike.
My experience and gut tell me to tell you to get disc brakes. One of the major things I use that bike for is huge climbs and descents. The canti's can handle it but discs would do a better job. However, you're talking single speed. Little chance that a one speed would get up what I'm talking about unless that one gear was 40x36 or 42. That would make for an awfully lousy bike. In a reasonable range, 40x18 or 22, you just won't be using that bike in the Rockies or Sierra's, so the brakes won't matter as much. If you ever want to get shifting though, you just bought a brand new obsolete bike. It's kinda cool on an old bike, I'd never buy a new one that's not disc and thru axle. |
I might have to put this on hold until the apocalypse is over. I had few other options including some custom builds and I keep hitting roadblocks with stuff that is out of stock with no ETA in sight.
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Originally Posted by Rolla
(Post 21694204)
Funny -- I sold my Cross Check and bought my Black Mountain for this very reason. Surly has said that their long top tube/short head tube design is a purist CX thing, which is ironic considering that NO ONE races a Cross Check.
Here's a Cross Check compared to a Monster Cross: https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...74ec815c38.png |
Originally Posted by Rolla
(Post 21694204)
Surly has said that their long top tube/short head tube design is a purist CX thing, which is ironic considering that NO ONE races a Cross Check.
ETA - regarding frame sizing on the Cross-Check, the big issue is reach. I rode a size 46. I’m a small rider, but as a nominal size, that’s way below my usual range. A more typical road or cross bike size for me is about 50, in some brands I would ride a 48, in others maybe a 52. I think where people get into trouble is expecting a Cross-Check in their usual nominal size to fit them, and it ends up being far too long. I think they corrected for this on the Straggler sizing, from their geo chart the best fit for me would be size 50. |
It seems like Surly designs their frames with the assumption that riders are going to use and upright stem with a ton of spacers under it, so the sizing scheme probably fits in a conventional way. the long and low measurements are deceiving like that. my mountain bike is a Karate Monkey and I ride it with a low handlebar and a small spacer under the stem, but that works on a bike with a long suspension fork.
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Originally Posted by mack_turtle
(Post 21698873)
It seems like Surly designs their frames with the assumption that riders are going to use and upright stem with a ton of spacers under it, so the sizing scheme probably fits in a conventional way. the long and low measurements are deceiving like that. my mountain bike is a Karate Monkey and I ride it with a low handlebar and a small spacer under the stem, but that works on a bike with a long suspension fork.
They basically refuse to care that all other brands design differently, and they are proud of it, even when a bunch of their bikes are rolling around with 100mm of spacers. Whats so amazing is that sister brands AllCity and Salsa very much design for modern geometry. Surly isnt interested and wants to keep rocking tiny head tubes and low stack heights. It's a case study in how sometimes there can be success in spite of bucking established modern design trends. |
Originally Posted by mstateglfr
(Post 21699534)
Surly's geometry decisions are something to really behold. They basically refuse to care that all other brands design differently, and they are proud of it, even when a bunch of their bikes are rolling around with 100mm of spacers. It's a case study in how sometimes there can be success in spite of bucking established modern design trends.
Cross Check: 102 mm head tube, 538mm stack height While still lower than some, those numbers aren't wildly different from other brands' geometries. Plus, the CC is one of Surly's longest-running and most successful models, so who am I to criticize?Midnight Special: 125, 560 Bridge Club: 130, 576 Pack Rat: 145, 566 Disc Trucker: 205, 595 |
derail: I know a guy with a slick-tired Pugsley. most of it is black and he put every orange ano part he could find on it. it's a sight to behold! Of course he has a riser bar and 6" worth of orange and black alternating spacers under the stem to match the orange ano spoke nipples.
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