Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Cyclocross and Gravelbiking (Recreational)
Reload this Page >

Gluing tubulars for Cyclocross - different than for the road?

Notices
Cyclocross and Gravelbiking (Recreational) This has to be the most physically intense sport ever invented. It's high speed bicycle racing on a short off road course or riding the off pavement rides on gravel like : "Unbound Gravel". We also have a dedicated Racing forum for the Cyclocross Hard Core Racers.

Gluing tubulars for Cyclocross - different than for the road?

Old 12-17-20, 02:30 PM
  #1  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Evanston, IL
Posts: 5,178

Bikes: many

Liked 1,442 Times in 793 Posts
Gluing tubulars for Cyclocross - different than for the road?

I am a vintage roadie, vintage in both body and bike. I've never raced. I have gone to cheer on some of my local group's CX riders and it looked like fun. I thought I would try it this fall, but COVID obviously had other ideas.

At any rate, I had purchased a few used CX tubulars (Challenge Grifo, Dugast 33mm, etc) at various outlets over the past couple years. The Dugast tires needed a bit of work which I finally got around to a couple weeks ago. I test fit them on some rims and seemed like they should (barely) fit on my Schwinn Super Sport:



so I went ahead and glued them up (Vittoria Mastik One). This morning I took the bike out to the local park (with a Mount Trashmore). Both front and rear were inflated to about 40psi. During the course of bopping around, I managed to roll both tires off the rims (separate incidents - only my ego was bruised), so I have clearly done something wrong. I have never ridden such low pressure tubulars before, so there wasn't much extra pressure to help the glue keep everything together. I've never rolled a tubular on the road (thankfully). Do people only use tape with cross tubulars? Should I just give things another coat or two of glue and give it another try?
__________________
Monti Special
smontanaro is offline  
Old 12-17-20, 04:07 PM
  #2  
Senior Member
 
trailangel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 4,848

Bikes: Schwinn Varsity

Liked 742 Times in 422 Posts
Hmm.... not enough glue?
Did you air up the tires nice and hard after you glued them?
What accutally rolled off? the tire with the clothe tape intact, or did the tape stay on the rim?
BTW, nice bike
trailangel is offline  
Old 12-17-20, 05:33 PM
  #3  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Evanston, IL
Posts: 5,178

Bikes: many

Liked 1,442 Times in 793 Posts
Yeah, likely not enough glue. I am generally fairly stingy when gluing up road tires. As for airing up, I only pumped to 60 and let them sit for a couple days before riding. On a road setup, I would normally have inflated to about 120 to let the glue set. I wasn't sure what sort of pressure these fatter tires could handle. Part of me was also worried about my stitching job on one of the tires. The base tapes stayed on the casing. That was reassuring, as the tires came to me with some base tape/casing separation. They had previously been mounted with tape which seems it was more sturdy than the base tape adhesive. I just used Kelly's Cork Renew (basically latex glue I think) to reattach them. When the tires abandoned the rims on today's ride, I simply reinstalled them and continued, though taking a bit more care.

Thanks for the response, I'll give it another whirl.
__________________
Monti Special
smontanaro is offline  
Old 12-17-20, 07:22 PM
  #4  
Senior Member
 
79pmooney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 13,039

Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder

Liked 4,069 Times in 2,638 Posts
Never done cyclocross but i have seen several posts for respected forum members who race and service CX events saying cyclocross tires have to be glued far better than road tires; that it should be near impossible to get them off. (At least by the usual roadie's hands.)

Got a club, team or shop that does CX in your area? Might be worth a phone call or two to talk to someone who races or mounts their tires. Edit: They probably want as many as possible out there racing so I'm guessing they'd be happy to share the knowledge,
79pmooney is offline  
Old 12-17-20, 08:51 PM
  #5  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Evanston, IL
Posts: 5,178

Bikes: many

Liked 1,442 Times in 793 Posts
79pmooney Yes, there are some CX peeps and teams here. I'm pretty sure they are all using tape at this point.
__________________
Monti Special
smontanaro is offline  
Old 12-17-20, 09:33 PM
  #6  
Senior Member
 
msu2001la's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Chicago, IL, USA
Posts: 2,897
Liked 1,495 Times in 876 Posts
I've always had a shop glue my CX tubs. They use glue, not tape.
The glue job is very secure and I've never rolled a tire. I seriously doubt I could remove the tire from the rim even if I tried.

I have no idea how they do it, so not very helpful here... but I know it can be done.
msu2001la is offline  
Old 12-18-20, 02:14 AM
  #7  
Zas
Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Northern Europe
Posts: 44
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by smontanaro
I am a vintage roadie, vintage in both body and bike. I've never raced. I have gone to cheer on some of my local group's CX riders and it looked like fun. I thought I would try it this fall, but COVID obviously had other ideas.

At any rate, I had purchased a few used CX tubulars (Challenge Grifo, Dugast 33mm, etc) at various outlets over the past couple years. The Dugast tires needed a bit of work which I finally got around to a couple weeks ago. I test fit them on some rims and seemed like they should (barely) fit on my Schwinn Super Sport:

so I went ahead and glued them up (Vittoria Mastik One). This morning I took the bike out to the local park (with a Mount Trashmore). Both front and rear were inflated to about 40psi. During the course of bopping around, I managed to roll both tires off the rims (separate incidents - only my ego was bruised), so I have clearly done something wrong. I have never ridden such low pressure tubulars before, so there wasn't much extra pressure to help the glue keep everything together. I've never rolled a tubular on the road (thankfully). Do people only use tape with cross tubulars? Should I just give things another coat or two of glue and give it another try?

Hi, Ive now glued two sets of Tufo cross tubs and raced them successfully on vintage rims. In the past Ive glued several (maybe total around 10 wheels) road tubs so not a complete stranger to glue. I was worried about the narrow road rim width and especially the shape being unsuited to the wide cross tubes but in the end theyve held up well despite racing them at only about 23-25 psi pressure.

Ive learned to first put in many thin layers of glue. Then especially on a CX tire in the final coating there needs to be a LOT of glue. Like when you finally put on the tire the glue needs to be pouring over between the rim and the tire. (of course you made sure youre putting it the right way around, you dont want to start over midway trough the process!) Then immediately start straightening the tire and then maybe even press on a broomstick to push the tire against the rim. Do all this as quickly as you can (in a couple minutes) and then stop messing with it because then youll only be breaking the bond that is starting to form! Put in about the pressure youll be riding it (maybe 30 psi?). And then leave it properly dry, Ive heard a CX tire needs ideally even 3-4 days to get the best bond. I think its hard to do a perfect job but if you do most of the important things right you wont be rolling tires. Dont give up, its all worth it and to me, its a part of this wonderful hobby!
Zas is offline  
Old 12-18-20, 09:41 AM
  #8  
Senior Member
 
trailangel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 4,848

Bikes: Schwinn Varsity

Liked 742 Times in 422 Posts
I have only used Tubasti so I don't know about the glue you are using. I even have used it to re glue the base tape. Tubasti never really hardens so I could get the tire off when experiencing a road flat. I have never raced. The stickie tape I have never used, but have experience getting it off tires and rims... and half stayed on the tire and half stayed on the rim.. very annoying.
trailangel is offline  
Old 12-19-20, 10:07 AM
  #9  
Full Member
 
justin1138's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 470

Bikes: yes...

Liked 103 Times in 23 Posts
I glued up my first pair of tubies two seasons back with a total of five layers of Mastik and one strip of Belgium tape per wheel. Everything held up quite well that season. Unfortunately I haven’t raced in two years, but those tires are still firmly attached to the rims (I give them a good tug from time to time).

This was my reference for gluing:

Last edited by justin1138; 12-20-20 at 06:31 AM.
justin1138 is offline  
Old 12-19-20, 10:45 AM
  #10  
Senior Member
 
trailangel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 4,848

Bikes: Schwinn Varsity

Liked 742 Times in 422 Posts
Were is the dislike button. Stupid person putting on layers and layers of glue on a new tire that has not been pre mounted on the rim to stretch it out and make mounting easier. DUMB
trailangel is offline  
Likes For trailangel:
Old 12-20-20, 06:47 AM
  #11  
Full Member
 
justin1138's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2013
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 470

Bikes: yes...

Liked 103 Times in 23 Posts
Originally Posted by trailangel
Were is the dislike button. Stupid person putting on layers and layers of glue on a new tire that has not been pre mounted on the rim to stretch it out and make mounting easier. DUMB
First of all... why so angry?

Admittedly my depth of tubular mounting is limited to one pair of wheels, but they held up to full season of hard CX racing. When looking up how to glue up cyclocross tires, the Belgian Method tends to come up regularly, which is what that video is more or less demonstrating.

Also... tires were stretched, at least by me
justin1138 is offline  
Old 12-20-20, 07:12 AM
  #12  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Evanston, IL
Posts: 5,178

Bikes: many

Liked 1,442 Times in 793 Posts
Thanks for the varied responses. I haven't done anything more with the tubulars yet, but believe I have figured out the mental mistake. When I glue up used tubulars, I generally just put a thin coat on tire and rim, and off I go (well, relatively speaking). These Dugasts are definitely used, but had been affixed with tape which I pretty completely removed with a hair dryer and my thumbs (that took awhile). So, while they are still clearly used, the base tape was pretty clean. In particular, they had no glue residue to soften up. Most of the glue likely just soaked into the base tape. Definitely pilot error. I think with one or two more thin layers on the tires and another on the rim I should be set. I will likely also inflate them to a higher pressure when the glue is setting. 60psi was probably not quite enough to get the tire to fully engage the trough in the rim.
__________________
Monti Special
smontanaro is offline  
Old 12-20-20, 08:41 AM
  #13  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,068
Liked 332 Times in 248 Posts
Apply glue edge to edge of rim. Apply glue to base tape. Wait for glue to flash. Means the surface of glue begins to appear flat. No time frame on that, depends on temp, humidity, amount of glue. When glue has flashed mount tire. Pump. 60psi is plenty for a 33mm tire. Overnight is way more than enough to dry.

Vittoria Mastik One is same as I have been using. Influenced by all the chatter from the CX world the tires have been glued more carefully than in years past. It is very hard to get them off without the base tape separating. Takes time and patience.

When the glue is well flashed it will be difficult to adjust tire that did not mount perfectly straight the first time. Prying the tire free and repositioning takes hand strength, does not weaken the bond if performed before the glue is plain dry.

33mm CX tires want wider rims. 20mm road rims are marginal. Rims of 18 or 19mm from the 80s and 90s are a bad idea. Doubt this was your problem. Rims of 22mm or wider are far better.

Vittoria and most are supplied in tubes that are enough for one pair of tires. For the wide tires maybe a little more.

Layers? Where on earth does that come from. I have asked pro race mechanics, plural, about this one and they say they have no time to do that. Last time I had that conversation the mechanic looked at me and asked how long I had been gluing tires. Since 1967. At which response he replied good, because I can’t talk to new people about this at all. Multiple layers is a belief system that is unshakeable. Why would gluing glue to glue to glue do anything but sell glue.

Test your work. Test your work. Test your work. Before riding or after long storage attempt to roll off tire with your hands. Tire should be tight as in paragraph two above. Tire should not even get started loosening at a small point without significant effort. Test your work.

In 53 years I have never rolled a tire. No tire glued for someone else has ever rolled.

Test your work.

Carl Wilkins, for many years UCI Commisaire #1, used to test tires at the starting line. No other known race official ever did that. Carl is a treasure. Mostly he was looking for early season tires that were using last seasons glue. When the tires came off with his hands it got attention. Anyone who saw that happen on the start line never forgot it. Test your work.
63rickert is offline  
Old 12-20-20, 12:36 PM
  #14  
Senior Member
 
trailangel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 4,848

Bikes: Schwinn Varsity

Liked 742 Times in 422 Posts
I'm not angry. I see a guy gluing a brand new tire without pre-stretching first, and I call it like it is.
trailangel is offline  
Old 12-20-20, 01:06 PM
  #15  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Evanston, IL
Posts: 5,178

Bikes: many

Liked 1,442 Times in 793 Posts
Originally Posted by trailangel
I'm not angry. I see a guy gluing a brand new tire without pre-stretching first, and I call it like it is.
If others are like me, trying to mount a glued but not stretched tire is a mistake you only make once.
__________________
Monti Special
smontanaro is offline  
Likes For smontanaro:
Old 12-27-20, 12:55 PM
  #16  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Evanston, IL
Posts: 5,178

Bikes: many

Liked 1,442 Times in 793 Posts
Final iteration, I think. I revisited both tires. Despite 63rickert's admonition that a single coat of glue was good enough (appreciate the detailed reply, John - especially about rim widths), I applied another coat of glue to both tires and rims. But not before reviewing where things sat. Upon closer examination, I found
  • A few places where the base tape was still loose along the edge for a short stretch or slightly folded over upon itself
  • A few more small bits of tape residue (like little boogers, not huge stretches)
  • The Aspin rims measured 20.3mm wide, so they were in the "marginal" size category
When applying glue I use disposal paste brushes that you can get from the hardware store. I have generally applied glue down the center of the rim and tire, with pressure on the brush fanning it out to the edges. This works well for the road tubulars I'm used to, but I think it didn't quite work for the wider base tape on the Dugasts. For the rims I made two passes, brushing from the center of the well diagonally to one edge, all the way around. I then flipped the wheel over in the truing stand and repeated the process. For the tires themselves, instead of my usual procedure of gluing while the tire was inflated enough to hold its shape, the very supple sidewalls allowed me to lay the deflated tire flat across the corner of the work bench. That made it easier to brush the glue on more-or-less from edge to edge.

It took a couple days off-and-on to remedy problems with the base tape (glue, weight under bricks until dry, lather, rinse, repeat). Once done, gluing was pretty straightforward using the above modifications. Mount and pump to 70psi, wait awhile (probably a couple days, but only because I was busy with other stuff and it was darn cold for a couple days), deflate to 40psi, then mount on the bike. Ready to roll. I took it out yesterday for another few laps around the local park and had no problems. Tires stayed stuck, and perhaps a better indicator, the valve stems stayed put.

The next task is to make the brakes work better. You know the joke about Campy Record brakes just being "speed modulators," right? Well the Dura-Ace brakes on this bike aren't even that good. I think the pads are probably ancient. I'll figure something out, maybe swap in some different pads or pads/holders, or switch out the brake calipers altogether. I have other first gen Dura-Ace brakes which work fine, so I suspect the problems are mostly caused by old, rock hard pads and anodized rims.

I realize this isn't really a cyclocross setup. There is plenty of wheel flop in low speed turns, so I imagine the front-end geometry is far from optimal for that. It will be nice to take out to the Des Plaines River Trail or similar unpaved trails in the Chicago area.


__________________
Monti Special
smontanaro is offline  
Likes For smontanaro:
Old 12-28-20, 10:35 AM
  #17  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,068
Liked 332 Times in 248 Posts
Hi Skip

The narrow rims that simply will not work are the ones with deep steep-sided troughs. A 33mm tire won’t get down in there. If the glue trough is flattish and normal looking they will glue up.

My tires are on so tight the casing separates from the base tape way easier than base tape separates from rim. No point in trying for more adhesion than that. Next tire that needs glue I will be experimenting with mounting it before the glue has much flashed. And will then thoroughly check the work and continue to check the work anxiously for a good few rides.

Last time I did much on the DPR trail it was more a right of way than a trail and I was young enough to be utterly unconcerned with broken bones. There should still be big sections that get submerged fairly often and lots of mud holes. Those mud holes are urban and there can be broken bottles and twisted rusty metal down there. There must still be spider trails where you can have fun and get in trouble. Further north most of it seems to be a limestone screenings freeway. Several rides on miles of beautifully groomed trails and no one using them. Peaceful and quiet. Limestone is hard on the chain and the bike gets all dusty, when using CX tires that shouldn’t matter.
63rickert is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Your Privacy Choices -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.