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non-disc brake purchase options?

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Cyclocross and Gravelbiking (Recreational) This has to be the most physically intense sport ever invented. It's high speed bicycle racing on a short off road course or riding the off pavement rides on gravel like : "Unbound Gravel". We also have a dedicated Racing forum for the Cyclocross Hard Core Racers.

non-disc brake purchase options?

Old 07-27-21, 02:58 AM
  #26  
Fentuz
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I have both: Hydraulic Disc on the "big" gravel bike and mini V brakes on the folding gravel bike. the rim brake does not offer good braking performance and frankly, when you go down a twisty steep hill over 40kph on loose surface,you need to be confident in you brakes... V brakes/cantilevers do not cut it.
Now, the issue about hydraulic, I can understand that some people can get a little worry about the maintenance of the hydraulic and there is a argument that if it fails in a remote area, it will be a pickle however, it is not a reason to rule out brake discs. if the issue is the hydraulic system maintenance, then, there is always the next best option: mechanical brake discs. a bike setup with spyre calipers, good disc and very good pads will be better the crappy rim brakes and the setup/maintenance is as simple if not simpler than rim brakes.
if you look at the "beginner " gravel bike like cinelli Zydeco lala, canondale topstone 3 etc. they tend to be fitted with shimano Sora groupset and mechnical road disc brake 160mm front/rear or SRam Apex or microshift mechanical disc.
These bikes work well and brake better than V brake/cantilever stuff.
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Old 07-27-21, 03:49 AM
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The only valid argument to refuse adopting disc brakes probably stems from the steep cost if one already owns a bike with sub-optimally performing rimmers: new frame, new hubs/wheels, and (if installing hydro) new levers along with the calipers...can get pricey. But, buying a new build? It is borderline absurd to eschew a superior performing brake system, ESPECIALLY when their inclusion in the build is by now built in...both in terms of weight savings in other places, and costs.
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Old 07-27-21, 07:30 AM
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I used to be one of those, "rims are just a big disc" people. Then I got some disc brake bikes. I have often wondered how many people who don't like disc brakes really have given them a chance. I'm not saying it will revolutionize your riding, but it's certainly at least a little better and not worth spending too much energy on. The bottom line is if the industry makes a wholesale change like this, it's not worth fighting. Just look at 26" wheeled MTB, there is just no point in holding out now unless you already have a bike that you like. But buying new, I'll just take what's on offer and ride new my bike.

It's really skewed right now that there are shortages, rim brake parts just evaporated. And it's really hard to find rims. Last time I needed one, I was lucky that someone I know had a stash.
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Old 07-27-21, 11:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Fentuz View Post
I have both: Hydraulic Disc on the "big" gravel bike and mini V brakes on the folding gravel bike. the rim brake does not offer good braking performance and frankly, when you go down a twisty steep hill over 40kph on loose surface,you need to be confident in you brakes... V brakes/cantilevers do not cut it.
Now, the issue about hydraulic, I can understand that some people can get a little worry about the maintenance of the hydraulic and there is a argument that if it fails in a remote area, it will be a pickle however, it is not a reason to rule out brake discs. if the issue is the hydraulic system maintenance, then, there is always the next best option: mechanical brake discs. a bike setup with spyre calipers, good disc and very good pads will be better the crappy rim brakes and the setup/maintenance is as simple if not simpler than rim brakes.
if you look at the "beginner " gravel bike like cinelli Zydeco lala, canondale topstone 3 etc. they tend to be fitted with shimano Sora groupset and mechnical road disc brake 160mm front/rear or SRam Apex or microshift mechanical disc.
These bikes work well and brake better than V brake/cantilever stuff.
If "stranded in remote area due to brake failure" is high on your list of concerns, maybe gravel biking in remote areas just isn't your thing?
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Old 07-27-21, 12:12 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by msu2001la View Post
If "stranded in remote area due to brake failure" is high on your list of concerns, maybe gravel biking in remote areas just isn't your thing?
Personally, i don t care there are bike shops within a few miles but as “path less pedaled” mentioned on there channel it s always the case in north America and for some people it might be a negative point regardless.

there are some brand of car I would not touch because of the dealer network and the fact that general mechanics don t have the correct tools or know out. Is it the same for some bike systems? (i don t know, i do most things myself but i ask the question)
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Old 07-27-21, 01:53 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Fentuz View Post
Personally, i don t care there are bike shops within a few miles but as “path less pedaled” mentioned on there channel it s always the case in north America and for some people it might be a negative point regardless.

there are some brand of car I would not touch because of the dealer network and the fact that general mechanics don t have the correct tools or know out. Is it the same for some bike systems? (i don t know, i do most things myself but i ask the question)
I was being a bit facetious.

The likelihood of anyone experiencing a brake failure while out riding (regardless of type) is fairly low. That this would also happen in a situation where someone would be stranded, rather than being able to ride it home on one brake seems impossibly rare.

As for your second comment - hydraulic disc brakes do not require any skills or tools that are beyond the reach of any shop mechanic or inclined DIYer. The same cannot be said for properly adjusting a cantilever brake.
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Old 07-27-21, 02:18 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by msu2001la View Post
hydraulic disc brakes do not require any skills or tools that are beyond the reach of any shop mechanic or inclined DIYer. The same cannot be said for properly adjusting a cantilever brake.
Speak for yourself.
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Old 07-27-21, 02:23 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by msu2001la View Post
As for your second comment - hydraulic disc brakes do not require any skills or tools that are beyond the reach of any shop mechanic or inclined DIYer. The same cannot be said for properly adjusting a cantilever brake.
not sure about that, hydraulic is not easy to bleed. Definitely harder than bleeding car or race car brakes. All that syringes malarkey with specific sram fittings… i don’t like it despite not minding it for cars.
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Old 07-27-21, 02:29 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Rolla View Post
Speak for yourself.
Care to elaborate? I've never found hydro disc brakes to be particularly difficult to work on. I've had systems from Avid and Shimano, both were very simple to adjust and replace pads. I bled the Shimano brakes with a $25 bleed kit I bought on Amazon. The bike mechanics I know can do this stuff in their sleep and I've never heard of hydro disc brake service being a specialized thing that only certain shops or mechanics can do.
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Old 07-27-21, 02:43 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Fentuz View Post
...hydraulic is not easy to bleed...sram...
I guess you don't have any experience with Shimano "one-way" bleed?

Mineral oil, bleed cup, syringe with hose, 7 or 8 mm box end wrench, and >2 minutes and perfect every time ... not counting the removal of wheel and pads and installation of bleed block, then reverse after bleed (or flush).
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Old 07-27-21, 03:19 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by msu2001la View Post
Care to elaborate? I've never found hydro disc brakes to be particularly difficult to work on. .
Me neither. Nor have I found that properly adjusting a cantilever brake "requires skills or tools that are beyond the reach of any shop mechanic or inclined DIYer," as you evidently have.
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Old 07-27-21, 07:44 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by msu2001la View Post
If "stranded in remote area due to brake failure" is high on your list of concerns, maybe gravel biking in remote areas just isn't your thing?
Interestingly, I have had a brake bridge shear/twist out of a steel frame on a ride, rendering the rear caliper brake unusable. I have never had a ride spoilde by a disc brake failure.
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Old 07-27-21, 08:42 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Rolla View Post
Nor have I found that properly adjusting a cantilever brake "requires skills or tools that are beyond the reach of any shop mechanic or inclined DIYer," as you evidently have.
Man, setting up cantis used to be like an art form, and lots of folks did not have the skills to do it right. In order to get the pads to hit the rim cleanly with max leverage involved rectifying so many bits and angles against each other— pad height and angle, arm spring tension, straddle cable length and centering, cable length at the barrel adjusters, yoke angle, caliper angle— that they’re literally at least one order of magnitude more complex than hydro disc setup. The sheer number of parts in canti brakes is staggering, from cable pinch plates, to cable pinch bolts, concave washers, flat washers on both the calipers and on the studs…each of the 4 canti arms of the venerable DiaCompe 986 had 13 parts, a typical amount. Then on top of that, you had to manually adjust cantis for pad wear, something which happens automatically with hydro disc.

**** cantis.
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Old 07-27-21, 11:03 PM
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
In order to get the pads to hit the rim cleanly with max leverage involved rectifying so many bits and angles against each other— pad height and angle, arm spring tension, straddle cable length and centering, cable length at the barrel adjusters, yoke angle, caliper angle— that they’re literally at least one order of magnitude more complex than hydro disc setup. The sheer number of parts in canti brakes is staggering, from cable pinch plates, to cable pinch bolts, concave washers, flat washers on both the calipers and on the studs…each of the 4 canti arms of the venerable DiaCompe 986 had 13 parts, a typical amount. Then on top of that, you had to manually adjust cantis for pad wear, something which happens automatically with hydro disc.
Concave washers and barrel adjusters?! Oh, the complexity!

Just to be clear, I'm not arguing against hydraulic brakes. But to describe setting up cantilevers as though it's some kind of Gordian knot is either a vast overstatement or an unflattering glimpse of your mechanical abilities.
At any rate, just like hydros, it's certainly not "beyond the reach" of a shop mechanic, or "a specialized thing that only certain shops or mechanics can do."

Last edited by Rolla; 07-27-21 at 11:07 PM.
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Old 07-28-21, 12:26 AM
  #40  
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We shouldn't confuse complexity with difficulty. Cantis are complex, not difficult. Shimano hydraulic discs are simple and not difficult. See?
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Old 07-28-21, 12:45 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Badger6 View Post
I guess you don't have any experience with Shimano "one-way" bleed?

Mineral oil, bleed cup, syringe with hose, 7 or 8 mm box end wrench, and >2 minutes and perfect every time ... not counting the removal of wheel and pads and installation of bleed block, then reverse after bleed (or flush).
no, you are correct, I have Sram with the double system and fluid degasing procedure…

like i said not as simple as filling up the tank and pushing fluid through and getting the excess via the caliper nipple (I like AP racing calipers and alcon ones )

edit: i looked at the shimano procedure; it is pretty much what I used to do on my race car. Nice and Simple!

Last edited by Fentuz; 07-28-21 at 12:56 AM.
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Old 07-28-21, 05:02 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Rolla View Post
Concave washers and barrel adjusters?! Oh, the complexity!

Just to be clear, I'm not arguing against hydraulic brakes. But to describe setting up cantilevers as though it's some kind of Gordian knot is either a vast overstatement or an unflattering glimpse of your mechanical abilities.
At any rate, just like hydros, it's certainly not "beyond the reach" of a shop mechanic, or "a specialized thing that only certain shops or mechanics can do."
Spoken like a true noob.

Let’s celebrate when you hit your 1 year anniversary.
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Old 07-28-21, 05:19 AM
  #43  
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I was a disc brake skeptic, when I bought my Raleigh Redux3 (Hydraulic). I ride mostly road/gravel and not many down hills. The pads squealed and the QR front wheel was a major PITA to reinstall. I bought new pads, which solved the squeal problem. That bike was sold and replaced by a Salsa Warbird, with mechanical disc brakes, thru axle a breeze, no noise and they seem to stop just as well as the hydraulic brakes. I've had to make a few panic stops and they do stop NOW.
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Old 07-28-21, 05:27 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Badger6 View Post
We shouldn't confuse complexity with difficulty. Cantis are complex, not difficult. Shimano hydraulic discs are simple and not difficult. See?
The complexity is in the system design, and the difficulty is in the setup process.

If we accept that anything on a bike is hard to do— something I think we must— then I’d say that canti setup is probably the hardest. They can be more finicky and sensitive than front derailleurs….and there are four of them to **** with.

Seat height adjustment is easy. Perfect canti adjustment is difficult.

And to be clear, not all cantis are same; some are more complex or more difficult than others. Good riddance to them all, though.
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Old 07-28-21, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
Spoken like a true noob.

Let’s celebrate when you hit your 1 year anniversary.
LOL. Well, you gave it your best shot, I guess.
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Old 07-28-21, 09:25 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
I was pondering this not too long ago but dithered around until the BMC Monstercross was sold out. I came upon a Bianchi Volpe that I think might work. It came with really nice Cane Creek cantis. They stop well and don't squeal. The negative is that I have to deflate the tires to remove, even if the cable is disengaged. I'm think of switching to bar end shifters so I can use some Cane Creek brake levers with an additional brake release. The brakes and headset were all I kept. I bought a GRX crank and the rest is from the parts hoard. Ultegra 10 speed shifters, Pacenti wheels and (the horror) mismatched GKs.
Sorry, what is a GK?
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Old 07-28-21, 09:41 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by epnnf View Post
Sorry, what is a GK?
Gravel King
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Old 07-28-21, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Elvo View Post
Gravel King
Look like great tires ty
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Old 07-28-21, 08:12 PM
  #49  
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They look better when they match.
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Old 07-29-21, 06:20 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
OMG, if I never have to touch another canti again, it’ll be too soon.

Any rim brake I’m happy to see go, if only because those ***** make a filthy mess, but cantis suck worst of all.
Cantis are so easy to adjust and set up. I've been running them since the seventies with no problem. I prefer them to most rim brakes.
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