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Supple Tires with Tubes

Old 01-24-22, 12:53 PM
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Noonievut
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Supple Tires with Tubes

I have some Rene Herse tires on tubeless wheels and they're noticeable more supple than other tubeless tires I've used. While I haven't yet been out on gravel with these tires, I'm assuming they'll make for a more comfy ride at the right pressure over some light 'chunk'.

If I have a set of wheels that are not tubeless ready (and I don't want to convert them gheto-style), are their particular tires and/or tubes that make for a more supple ride, at presumably higher pressures to avoid pinch flats, or would the same theory apply (e.g., stiffer casing/sidewalls regardless of tubeless vs. tube makes for perhaps a more durable tire, but a less supple one, and the opposite for thinner casing/sidewall)? If I forget flats for a minute (from glass, debris), so long as I don't run them too low...I'm assuming that with a tube they'll only be a little less supple.
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Old 01-24-22, 02:43 PM
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Start with latex inner tubes in your favorite clincher and maybe take some notes about starting tire pressures then ride. Make a mental note when you return from the ride how comfortable/responsive/fast/slow/shock absorbing/jarring the ride was and resolve to modify from there.
Be careful on your first install with latex tubes, it is real easy to puncture the tube when installing and inadvertently having a tiny bit of tube hung up under the bead. So it pays to do a tire lever free install. Going with as fat a tire as your rims and frame will permit will let you run lower pressures I suppose. Iím just a road rider and my bikes max out around 25 or 26mm width but I feel like even on older skinny tire road bikes a smart implementation of rims/tubes/tires at optimal pressures can really improve the ride.

I have not personally tried any Rene Herse tires but I have ridden supple tubulars and also ďPROĒ series open tubulars from Challenge. The Challenge Strada and Criterium open tubulars arrive flat and are a tight fit on first install. They can be finessed onto tight rims without tire levers once you get the hang of it. Challenge makes the wider Strada Bianchi and Paris Roubaix open tubulars of the same high thread count supple casings. In my experience with the Strada and Criterium tires run with Vittoria latex tubes on my Velocity A23 clincher rims, the ride quality can be tuned quite a bit from soft all the way to harsh. I usually experiment and arrive at a happy medium for myself at my body weight on my aluminum bike with front pressures in the mid 70ís and rear pressures in the mid 80ís.

Challenge tires never seem to get very good reviews which I think is a bit odd because I believe they are very good in the grip and road feel department and no slouch in the rolling resistance department which is where they usually take a hit. They also wear a bit faster than Continentals so when I purchase some for the season I try to purchase 3 of them because a rear on the road may only go about 1800-2000 miles before you start getting some tread cuts/more frequent flats or even seeing some cords or tread separation.

ĎThese comments pertain to my experience as a road rider who does some light gravel. Hopefully some of my observations will be relevant to your specific application.
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Old 01-24-22, 06:50 PM
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Many of the rene herse riders run them with latex tubes. The tread is pretty thick so you get decent protection while still working with a supple casing. You can get the endurance version that has a thicker casing to use with tubes. I've run latex tubes with a cyclocross tires before I went tubeless and they are definitely pretty supple and are more pinch flat resistant than butyl tubes
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Old 01-24-22, 07:53 PM
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I use Schwalbe Aerothan innertubes, which are TPU (plastic), in Herse, Ultradynamico, and Panaracer tires, preferring the Aerothan properties over latex. I reverted Herse Extralights to tubes from tubeless with the Aerothan, because keeping those EL casing airtight was a major PITA, and seemingly impossible.
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Old 01-26-22, 08:59 PM
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Yes, the same things that make a tubeless tire feel supple make a tubed tire feel supple. I've run Rene Herse Superlights in 32, 35, and 38mm with tubes. I ran my current set of 38mm Barlow Pass ELs, for a while tubeless, but after about a year they just would not hold air, and there was still plenty of tread left in them. So I threw regular tubes in. Can't say I notice much difference in ride quality in tubed vs tubeless with these.

BTW, I've run RH tires with Superlight casings with tubes for years. They are not particularly flat prone. The tread is respectably thick.
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Old 01-26-22, 10:00 PM
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I've had similar experiences to the above (with Barlows). Jan Heine also states that having tubes shouldn't create a significant difference. One option you could try is latex tubes.
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Old 01-27-22, 03:18 AM
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I've compared Jon Bons tubeless, butyl tubed, and latex with a rolldown tests. I've compared Loupy Loups butyl vs latex

I run latex. I see no difference in speed or comfort vs tubeless and i simply do not trust the bead on these tires to run tubeless. Butyl screws the pooch.
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Old 01-27-22, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
I've compared Jon Bons tubeless, butyl tubed, and latex with a rolldown tests. I've compared Loupy Loups butyl vs latex

I run latex. I see no difference in speed or comfort vs tubeless and i simply do not trust the bead on these tires to run tubeless. Butyl screws the pooch.
Iíve looked online for latex tubes in 700x30-42ish sizes and havenít found any, and it seems even harder to find in 650B sizes.
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Old 01-27-22, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Noonievut View Post
Iíve looked online for latex tubes in 700x30-42ish sizes and havenít found any, and it seems even harder to find in 650B sizes.
I use Challenge latex 29-38mm for 700C and Michelin latex 559x47 for 650B. Challenge tubes are very easy to find, I have to buy the Michelin from Germany online retailers. 559 is fine in 584 (650B)
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Old 01-27-22, 07:17 AM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
I use Challenge latex 29-38mm for 700C and Michelin latex 559x47 for 650B. Challenge tubes are very easy to find, I have to buy the Michelin from Germany online retailers. 559 is fine in 584 (650B)
Thanks. The Michelin one looks like itís for 26Ē tires and Iíve read on the Rene Herse site that this sizes works fine for 650b. I found them online likely from where youíve sourcing them, and Iíll pick up a few.
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Old 01-27-22, 07:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Noonievut View Post
Thanks. The Michelin one looks like itís for 26Ē tires and Iíve read on the Rene Herse site that this sizes works fine for 650b. I found them online likely from where youíve sourcing them, and Iíll pick up a few.
I slightly inflate all tubes when installing. There is a very small diameter difference from 559 to 584. It works fine.

Alternatively, one can learn to cut and splice a latex tube from a larger diameter to a smaller one but that is a bit of a PITA
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Old 01-27-22, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Noonievut View Post
I’ve looked online for latex tubes in 700x30-42ish sizes and haven’t found any, and it seems even harder to find in 650B sizes.
I like Vittoria's Competition latex tubes. Aerocoach's test data has them performing similar to Vredestein near the top, and they have a better reputation for reliability. Vittoria's latex tubes are available in a variety of sizes, including a 700x30-38 option.

They also have a 1.7-2.3" latex tube which would probably work reasonably with 650B tires. I use them on my 26er drop-bar conversion gravel bike:



Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
I slightly inflate all tubes when installing.
Yep, always.
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Old 01-30-22, 04:47 PM
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I am currently running Panaracer Gravel King SS, 700x35 at 40psi. I weigh 152lbs. They give a nice ride with tubes. I did find the Panaracer SS+ to be stiffer, as they should be with their stiffer casing.
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Old 04-08-22, 10:03 AM
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Wondering what size TPU tube would work for my 'stock' 700 wheelset ? (they are 17.5mm internal)
I'm thinking to go Schwalbe Aerothane and they seem to offer both a 28-35mm and a 35-50mm width.
Currently running a 42mm on the front which actually measures 35mm width and the rear is 35mm measuring 32mm installed...
How much elasticity do the TPU tubes offer? Butyl will easily expand to fill more volume (to a dregree...) but have not experience with TPU.
Not gonna go latex. I am not locked to Schwalbe, so any recs for other TPU tubes would definitely be considered.
Thx
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Old 04-08-22, 01:11 PM
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cyclezen there is at least one YouTube vid of a guy blowing up a TPU Tubolito, and it gets huge. So yeah, it’ll expand in the tire no problem, so the question is how much does durability or puncture resistance suffer when overinflated? Does Crr suffer when overinflated?

I dunno the answers to those questions, and being risk averse, I’d weight the claimed benefits more heavily than weight savings from undersizing the tubes.
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Old 04-08-22, 06:02 PM
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
cyclezen there is at least one YouTube vid of a guy blowing up a TPU Tubolito, and it gets huge. So yeah, itíll expand in the tire no problem, so the question is how much does durability or puncture resistance suffer when overinflated? Does Crr suffer when overinflated?

I dunno the answers to those questions, and being risk averse, Iíd weight the claimed benefits more heavily than weight savings from undersizing the tubes.
I'll look for that video... My Q is aimed at using the TPU tube as a 'spare' for my 'soon to be 'delivered' tubeless wheelset. Not a weight thing, more a space thing in the saddlebag, allowing a bit more space for other stuff...
Only reason I'm considering is that I'm running widths just a hair over CX widths... not thinking to be using for 45+ widths...
I'll check out the video...
Ride On
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Old 04-08-22, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
cyclezen there is at least one YouTube vid of a guy blowing up a TPU Tubolito, and it gets huge. So yeah, itíll expand in the tire no problem, so the question is how much does durability or puncture resistance suffer when overinflated? Does Crr suffer when overinflated?

I dunno the answers to those questions, and being risk averse, Iíd weight the claimed benefits more heavily than weight savings from undersizing the tubes.
Is it this one? Now YouTube is eager to recommend other "exploding tubes" videos to me.

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Old 04-08-22, 10:07 PM
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ThermionicScott Bingo! That’s the one!! Good hunting!!!
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Old 04-09-22, 09:16 AM
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LOL! reminds me of the TV show where they blew stuff up regularly... was fun!
wooda been good if he had a measuring stick/wand/pole, like what's used for high water/flood measurements... LOL!
Ride On
Yuri
EDIT: Interesting is that the TPU tube expanded further, partially along the tube length; once beyond a certain level of inflation... rather than the entire tube expanding until failure...
gonna assume the Aerothan will do the same as the tubolito...
so a slightly 'wider' initial tube width may go further before the disparate section over-inflation starts... ?

Last edited by cyclezen; 04-09-22 at 09:27 AM.
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Old 04-09-22, 06:35 PM
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That poor dog. (It appeared before the last one detonated.)
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