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Looking for N=1 -- 85% pavement. And no Grails to be found...

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Cyclocross and Gravelbiking (Recreational) This has to be the most physically intense sport ever invented. It's high speed bicycle racing on a short off road course or riding the off pavement rides on gravel like : "Unbound Gravel". We also have a dedicated Racing forum for the Cyclocross Hard Core Racers.

Looking for N=1 -- 85% pavement. And no Grails to be found...

Old 03-24-22, 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by prj71
Splitting hairs. Unnoticeable difference. And reach can be adjusted with stem length.

Having done a few gravel races myself...I think these gravel bikes with ~71 degree HTA are too steep. I think Fezzari nailed the correct HTA at 68.9.

Ha, well then you would lose your mind on my gravel bike that has 72.5deg HTA and 60mm of trail. Gravel roads are just roads- an endurance road bike with room for a wider tire is all I need.
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Old 03-24-22, 03:21 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
Ha, well then you would lose your mind on my gravel bike that has 72.5deg HTA and 60mm of trail. Gravel roads are just roads- an endurance road bike with room for a wider tire is all I need.
But not all gravel roads are the same. Some of my grave routes are marble size stone that often feels like you are riding on real marbles. The steeper the HTA the twitchier the steering is going to be. A little slacker HTA works better for these types of roads.
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Old 03-24-22, 03:46 PM
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Originally Posted by prj71
But not all gravel roads are the same. Some of my grave routes are marble size stone that often feels like you are riding on real marbles. The steeper the HTA the twitchier the steering is going to be. A little slacker HTA works better for these types of roads.
Agreed, not all roads are the same. I was just observing how you for sure would dislike what I ride. Nothing more nothing less.
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Old 03-24-22, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
Ha, well then you would lose your mind on my gravel bike that has 72.5deg HTA and 60mm of trail. Gravel roads are just roads- an endurance road bike with room for a wider tire is all I need.
Well, I will double Ha you, I ride a gravel bike with a 73.3 deg HTA and 50mm of trail, and I love it!

And mstateglfr, I agree with your post. You can ride anything almost anywhere. I take my gravel bike on most MTB trails around me and do fine.
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Old 03-24-22, 07:04 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
Ha, well then you would lose your mind on my gravel bike that has 72.5deg HTA and 60mm of trail. Gravel roads are just roads- an endurance road bike with room for a wider tire is all I need.
My Stigmata has a 72 deg HTA and it's perfect from 100% full on road rides to semi-technical single track. I wouldn't want a bike much slacker up front for versatility like that.
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Old 03-29-22, 01:51 PM
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Look at a mechanical group build from Litespeed (Watia) or Lynskey (GR300).
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Old 03-29-22, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Camilo
Look at a mechanical group build from Litespeed (Watia) or Lynskey (GR300).
Arenít they both titanium? One of the OPs requirements is carbon frame.
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Old 03-29-22, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by sarhog
Arenít they both titanium? One of the OPs requirements is carbon frame.
OOPs. Sorry, bad comprehension.
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Old 03-30-22, 11:43 AM
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Nice to see the conversation continued a bit -- I didn't sub to the replies so apologies.

Update:

I checked out the Aspero and Caledonia in person last weekend. The Caledonia is, at the end of the day, a road (only) bike. It's off the list (it was barely on it, but I wanted to consider it). In chatting with the shop (Ben, nice guy at pedal in Littleton), he also pointed towards the C'dale Super6 EVO (they're also a C'dale shop, so grain of salt noted). I'm trying to stay away from Spesh/C'dale/Giant/Trek --not because I'm anti-big companies, but I've owned them in the past and want to go elsewhere. In fact, I sold my Crux just last Nov -- I woulda kept it 'cept it was cantis and I want to jump into discs and less of a cx-specialist geometry. Spesh makes great bikes, but also seem about $1-2k higher for similar component spec against other brands. I've also owned a Trek road bike (2003 2300 w Ultegra). Also good bikes. Just like the smaller guys and having something a little unique on the road. Shrug.

The Aspero is still a contender, and the same shop has one in my size (58) with GRX600 (my budget) coming in April. Has me really thinking about it. The Look 765 Gravel keeps coming around too, and there's one out there. Three bottles inside the main triangle? Yesplease!

The Warbird keeps coming up. Why did I say it's "too gravely?" -- 70.75* HTA, 430mm chainstays and a 1070mm wheelbase. Coming from a 999mm wheelbase, I don't want to feel like I'm going from a rocket to a recliner. Yes I know it's numbers-staring, and Yes I know things are different out on the road. There's also the availability issue.

So. Where does that leave us? Well, ever the "let's keep interneting because I have to pay taxes first," I saw an Obed Boundary on CL and went to check out the brand. Guess what? The Obed (sister company with Litespeed and Quintana Roo) has the GVR. The GVR is just what I'm looking for. And they're more or less available (4-week build). And they're pretty configurable. And a GRX810 build is under 4k, which has the 48/11 instead of the46/11 on the GRX600. And I can add mounts. And I can spec the right tire. And it has colors!

Ladies and Gents, I think this is my jam. Just need to get taxes paid first: https://obedbikes.com/products/gvr-g...41210312458415

It's fun to play with the color schemes...
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Old 03-31-22, 03:36 PM
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Update. Pulled the trigger on the Obed. In a last-second concession, I chose to go without the rear fender/rack brace, since the fork on the GVR don't have no eyelets anyhow. I slept on it and called them up and added the seatstay bridge and the toptube mounts. Just in case, y'know. So I'll go with SKS Speedrockers when the time comes. 5-6 weeks from now, I'll have my N=1...


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Old 05-06-22, 10:57 PM
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I got an email today


5-6 weeks is looking like it's spot on. Tick tock tick tock!
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Old 05-11-22, 01:10 AM
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I am going through this myself. I want an s-works cruz but lotto and stock market have been failing me.

I want 2x grx with thread bottom bracket, kind of lite. ( very lite s-works crux is over 10k )
I think that only really leaves the Stigmata around 5k. If you don't mind a little more weight and a lot of savings in your pocket you can buy alloy top stone 2x with threaded bottom bracket for around $2,300 ish

topstone 1
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Old 05-11-22, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by sean.hwy
I am going through this myself. I want an s-works cruz but lotto and stock market have been failing me.

I want 2x grx with thread bottom bracket, kind of lite. ( very lite s-works crux is over 10k )
I think that only really leaves the Stigmata around 5k. If you don't mind a little more weight and a lot of savings in your pocket you can buy alloy top stone 2x with threaded bottom bracket for around $2,300 ish

topstone 1
Yah, I wanted S-works cruz too but ended up getting a Canyon Inflite for 1/2 the price. It's perfect for my riding. I do race training rides with roadies (pacelines @20-30mph), and cross country mountain bike race training rides. Does just about anything that doesn't require suspension.
Having done a few gravel races myself...I think these gravel bikes with ~71 degree HTA are too steep. I think Fezzari nailed the correct HTA at 68.9…..

… Some of my grave routes are marble size stone that often feels like you are riding on real marbles. The steeper the HTA the twitchier the steering is going to be. A little slacker HTA works better for these types of roads.
I’ll have to profess my ignorance. I don’t know what twitchy really means.

I find with a steep head tube angle, I can really dive into a turn hard, and curve a tight arc – which is great for pavement, not for gravel.

Twitchiness – that seems to be mostly due to stiff arms and upper body, not the bike, no? I can ride any bike I’ve owned with no hands (removing the stiff body factor), so I’m blaming twitchiness on myself.

In the end, Trail and wheelbase are more important than HTA, with wheelbase being the main factor. I can drift my OG mountain bike (with steep HTA and long wheelbase) all day long, but I can’t for the life of me drift my fast short wheelbase gravel steed.

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Old 05-11-22, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by chas58
Iíll have to profess my ignorance. I donít know what twitchy really means.
The steeper the head angle and the bike becomes twitchy...Meaning the bike reacts faster to steering input making it prone to over steer, which IMO is a bad thing on gravel and even worse on downhill gravel when riding at higher speeds. Oversteer with a front tire riding on marbles (gravel) is more often than not what causes a crash.

When a bike has a slacker head tube angle the steering is slower at low speeds, but the extra stability associated with relatively slower steering will moderate the behavior of the bike at higher speeds.
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Old 05-17-22, 11:48 PM
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So ... here she is. Got a 13mi mixed surface ride in tonight as soon as I could throw pedals on and adjust the saddle. I'm in LOVE!

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Old 05-18-22, 11:04 AM
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Okay, so it was late and I didn't spend the time to review the GVR, so here's a few random thoughts from the initial ride yesterday:

* Over all impression? It's gorgeous. I love the matte finish and I can't complain about the color scheme (because, you know, I picked it). I had a small fear just as the truck pulled up that the steerer would be cut too short. In the pic above, it looks like a ton of handlebar drop because the seatpost came just so high. Thankfully, with the saddle in its right spot, the handlebar drop is just about perfect. Phew!

* Haven't been on Shimano 'road' group in years. Shifting was precise but mechanical. I do love the way Campy slides into gear. The FD needs a small click trim from the bottom half to the top half of the cassette. That's really tight. Will have to just get used to that. Is it just me, or does the grx crankset look kinda low-end aesthetically? It reminds me of the Acera crankset

* 38mm Tires are sweetness, and the gravelking SS is just what I want. I didn't feel like I was giving up too much on pavement, and had plenty of traction on the dirt

* Somewhere between geometry and tire width/pressure, I felt I could go through dirt corners multiple mph faster than previously, including my hardtail mtb with 29x2.6 tires. Front tire always felt planted and secure, even through patches of looser stuff.

* The bike jumps under power (a good thing). It's my first carbon bike and while I could notice a little more stiffness from my steel Goodship, it's not a bad thing. The Fizik Vento Argo R3 saddle, on the other hand, is really stiff. Maybe it needs to break in a little.

* One write-up (on slowtwitch I think) espoused the bike's bombproof-inspiring handling on unpaved surfaces. I'd agree. It's not twitchy and it's not pokey. It just felt dialed. Is it my quiver-killer? That remains to be seen -- I do need to dial in the fit a little more, but it has every potential to be the grab-and-go-no-matter-the-day bike I was looking for.


(now I just have to wait until Monday to ride again with Life taking over for the next few days. Argh!)
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Old 05-18-22, 11:46 AM
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I have wondered with invisible cable management like this, does the steering feel stiff at all?
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Old 05-21-22, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by superdex
Is it just me, or does the grx crankset look kinda low-end aesthetically? It reminds me of the Acera crankset
I personally think the GRX stuff looks good, and looks like it totally belongs on your bike. I'm glad your bike performs as well as it looks!
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Old 05-23-22, 09:33 AM
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Originally Posted by tdilf
I have wondered with invisible cable management like this, does the steering feel stiff at all?
Not that I can tell ...
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Old 05-25-22, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by prj71
The steeper the head angle and the bike becomes twitchy...Meaning the bike reacts faster to steering input making it prone to over steer, which IMO is a bad thing on gravel and even worse on downhill gravel when riding at higher speeds. Oversteer with a front tire riding on marbles (gravel) is more often than not what causes a crash.

When a bike has a slacker head tube angle the steering is slower at low speeds, but the extra stability associated with relatively slower steering will moderate the behavior of the bike at higher speeds.
You're oversimplifying though, there's so much that goes into steering and handling besides HTA. Wheelbase, BB drop, FORK OFFSET, tire size/design, etc etc all factor in. My 72.5* HTA Crux feels rock solid offroad, so did my 71.5* Jake the Snake. The Crux holds a line better at lower (gravel) speeds than the JTS ever did though, despite its dramatically shorter trail.

Originally Posted by superdex
So ... here she is.
Dude, I love it. It looks way better in person than on the website. Those stickers on the rims have got to go though.

Did you get a final weight?
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Old 06-13-22, 01:52 PM
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Oh hey, I finally broke out the scale -- with cages and pedals (Candy 1), it's 21 1/4 lbs. I can't find weights of the Sun Charger Comp wheels, but I imagine the bike will lose a pound or so when I swap those out, eventually. On dirt, it feels faster than my Timberjack which is expected, and on the road not quite as sprightly as my Goodship (with 45mm deep carbons, 15mm shorter wheelbase, and weighing just under 20lbs), also expected. It hits the sweet spot, I'm a happy camper
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Old 06-13-22, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by superdex
Oh hey, I finally broke out the scale -- with cages and pedals (Candy 1), it's 21 1/4 lbs. I can't find weights of the Sun Charger Comp wheels, but I imagine the bike will lose a pound or so when I swap those out, eventually. On dirt, it feels faster than my Timberjack which is expected, and on the road not quite as sprightly as my Goodship (with 45mm deep carbons, 15mm shorter wheelbase, and weighing just under 20lbs), also expected. It hits the sweet spot, I'm a happy camper
So this will come off poorly, but is really meant to be surprising. A $4000 bike has heavy basic wheels? That seems frustrating.
...or are the wheels really good, but you are going to buy some exceptional ones? 450g or more to drop off a wheelset led me to think the stock wheelset is very basic and heavy.


It is a really nice looking bike, to be clear.
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Old 06-13-22, 04:58 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
So this will come off poorly, but is really meant to be surprising. A $4000 bike has heavy basic wheels? That seems frustrating.
...or are the wheels really good, but you are going to buy some exceptional ones? 450g or more to drop off a wheelset led me to think the stock wheelset is very basic and heavy.
(not taken poorly at all, it's a fair comment)
Seems the market (inflation notwithstanding) for a carbon frame+GRX 810+decent kit is around that $4k mark (plus or minus) -- the Aspero GRX is specced with Easton EA70 AX, also a $250 wheelset and is $4k. Shrug. (Yes, I'm knowingly hand-waving over the whole Obed<->Cervelo brand cachet comparisons; I just like to pick on Cervelo)

So, I guess they are "decent" wheels; tubeless ready and all, but I'm only guessing that's where some extra weight is because the reviews of the bike online are all with the carbon option (HED Emporia, +$1600) and they talk about the bike being sub-20. There are a few wheelset options on the site and I chose the cheapest on purpose as I do plan on some LightBicycle carbon hoops come Christmastime as a 2nd, more road/aero option (and I was maxxing my budget as-it-was)

It is a really nice looking bike, to be clear.
thanks, I'm really enjoying it, though not as often as I want to the past few weeks. Life gets in the way, dontchaknow....
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