Notices
Cyclocross and Gravelbiking (Recreational) This has to be the most physically intense sport ever invented. It's high speed bicycle racing on a short off road course or riding the off pavement rides on gravel like : "Unbound Gravel". We also have a dedicated Racing forum for the Cyclocross Hard Core Racers.

Mud clearance

Old 06-25-08, 06:21 PM
  #1  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,505

Bikes: Specialized Tricross Sport 2009

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Mud clearance

I don't race cyclocross, but I ride a Specialized Tricross Sport, which recently took an unexpected[1] trip through some extremely heavy mud, that was like clay and sand mixed with water. The mud was so thick that it clagged up in huge clumps around the cantis, around the cranks, and even jammed between the rear wheel seat tube. It got so bad I could barely turn the wheels against the force of all the mud.

My buddy, on a Giant MTB with disk brakes, was fine.

What I'm wondering is, is aren't cyclocross bikes supposed to be designed for good mud clearance? Why don't they use disk brakes, considering they're apparently far superior in these kinds of conditions? Or is it just that the Tricross Sport isn't really a true "cyclocross" bike?

I'm not complaining, as I certainly have no intention of riding in those kinds of conditions again if I can help it, I'm just curious to understand the design of cyclocross bikes a bit better.

Steve
[1] See https://xkcd.com/geohashing
stevage is offline  
Old 06-25-08, 09:35 PM
  #2  
M_S
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 3,693
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Pit bikes.

The Tricross has great mud clearance.

Also, cross courses often have water you ride through that sort of clears the mud off (a bit). Also, sometimes you're just better off carrying the bike and running. Part of the sport.

In terms of the disc brake thing, I aint touching that one with a ten foot pole. Nuh-uh.
M_S is offline  
Old 06-26-08, 07:05 AM
  #3  
antisocialite
 
dirtyphotons's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 3,385
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
the short answer is that disc brakes are illegal according to the major international sanctioning body, uci.

the long answer can be obtained by searching this forum for that very question.
dirtyphotons is offline  
Old 06-26-08, 08:37 AM
  #4  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
A cross bike with cantis has better mud clearance than a road bike with calipers, but not as good as a mountain bike with disc brakes.

Horses for courses. Pretty simple, that.
flargle is offline  
Old 06-26-08, 08:39 AM
  #5  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
The UCI rule is irrelevant for the vast majority of us, because very few of us actually race in UCI-sanctioned events. There is, however, a trickle-down effect that has probably slowed the adoption of discs. Nevertheless, a few mass-producers (Lemond, Cannondale, now Salsa) have gone ahead and produced race-worthy disc-equipped cross bikes.

There are three valid arguments in favor of cantis for a race bike, namely:
- lighter weight
- disc brakes are "overkill" for the vast majority of cross races (no sustained descents, for example)
- wheel changes slower with discs

There are also many irrelevant, primarily theological arguments against disc brakes.
flargle is offline  
Old 06-26-08, 09:23 AM
  #6  
4 letter tirade
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: 8 blocks west of the Sears Tower
Posts: 546

Bikes: Soon to be owner of a matching pair of Rock Lobster CX machines, Kelly Deluxe, Bianchi Commuter, Waterford R22

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
god says disc brakes are evil
cardstock is offline  
Old 06-26-08, 10:33 AM
  #7  
Senior Member
 
rbiked's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 62
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by flargle
The UCI rule is irrelevant for the vast majority of us, because very few of us actually race in UCI-sanctioned events. There is, however, a trickle-down effect that has probably slowed the adoption of discs. Nevertheless, a few mass-producers (Lemond, Cannondale, now Salsa) have gone ahead and produced race-worthy disc-equipped cross bikes.

There are three valid arguments in favor of cantis for a race bike, namely:
- lighter weight
- disc brakes are "overkill" for the vast majority of cross races (no sustained descents, for example)
- wheel changes slower with discs

There are also many irrelevant, primarily theological arguments against disc brakes.

the amount of weight difference between disc brakes and traditional brakes is not that much... the Avid BB7 disc brakes only weigh 300grams... that is nothing and isn't going to slow you down considering it's only a fraction of a percent of your overall weight.

disc brakes were outlawed by the UCI due to their clear advantage, Disc brakes perform equally if not better in all conditions including water, mud and snow. This is due to their position closer to the hub and away from the ground and possible contaminants like wate. The pads are usually made from metal sinters or an organic compound instead of rubber. Water acts as a lubricant to rubber but not metal, therefore disc brakes maintain their stopping power in wet and muddy conditions.

changing a wheel with disc brakes actually takes time.. you don't have to touch the brakes to remove the wheel, the discs slide in and out of the caliper without any need to touch them while traditional cantilevered brakes require you to disconnect and reconnect the cables.
rbiked is offline  
Old 06-26-08, 10:33 AM
  #8  
d2p
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Posts: 13
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
thats why bike changes are allowed in cyclocross.
d2p is offline  
Old 06-26-08, 01:59 PM
  #9  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 2,119
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by rbiked
disc brakes were outlawed by the UCI due to their clear advantage
I think most of your points are valid, but not this one. The below article puts it pretty clearly. (Emphasis mine.)

https://www.dirtragmag.com/web/news-article.php?ID=170

When asked why the UCI had disallowed disc brakes in cyclocross, Shawn Farrell, the USA Cycling Technical Director responded, "It isn't so much that the UCI has disallowed disc brakes as it is that they have not approved them yet. Our rules system is based on freedom of choice unless someone tells you you cannot do something. The UCI system is not the same. Any new piece of equipment is automatically disallowed until it is approved by them. That is a subtle distinction, but one that is important to understanding this situation with disc brakes.”

[...]

For others, the fall-back makes sense. “Disc brakes are unnecessary for Elite-level cyclocross races. Cantilever brakes keep the bike as simple as possible. Also, by adding disc brakes, you have to overbuild the fork and frame, which is where a lot of the necessary compliance comes from. At last year’s Napa Finals I saw probably three disc brake-equipped bikes. I just don’t see the need for disc brakes on cyclocross bikes.”
flargle is offline  
Old 06-26-08, 06:57 PM
  #10  
Senior Member
 
rbiked's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 62
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by flargle
I think most of your points are valid, but not this one. The below article puts it pretty clearly. (Emphasis mine.)

https://www.dirtragmag.com/web/news-article.php?ID=170

When asked why the UCI had disallowed disc brakes in cyclocross, Shawn Farrell, the USA Cycling Technical Director responded, "It isn't so much that the UCI has disallowed disc brakes as it is that they have not approved them yet. Our rules system is based on freedom of choice unless someone tells you you cannot do something. The UCI system is not the same. Any new piece of equipment is automatically disallowed until it is approved by them. That is a subtle distinction, but one that is important to understanding this situation with disc brakes.”

[...]

For others, the fall-back makes sense. “Disc brakes are unnecessary for Elite-level cyclocross races. Cantilever brakes keep the bike as simple as possible. Also, by adding disc brakes, you have to overbuild the fork and frame, which is where a lot of the necessary compliance comes from. At last year’s Napa Finals I saw probably three disc brake-equipped bikes. I just don’t see the need for disc brakes on cyclocross bikes.”


sorry if i passed any misinformation with that quote, i was quoting the the Avid bb7 info page. i have not researched the UCI or the issue directly.

https://www.sram.com/en/avid/mechanic...es/bb7road.php

Road-style, Avid-style

Got a road-style bike with disc brakes? You can't get any better than Avid's BB7 and BB5. The BB7 Road is our tried-and-true brake with redesigned pad adjustment knobs. Its little brother, the brand new BB5 Road, has all the Avid good stuff, but only one adjustment knob. Be careful though. The UCI banned these puppies for cyclocross, because they are an unfair advantage. To which we say, "duh."
rbiked is offline  
Old 06-28-08, 05:12 AM
  #11  
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Posts: 1,505

Bikes: Specialized Tricross Sport 2009

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 15 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
>Also, cross courses often have water you ride through that sort of clears the mud off (a bit). Also, sometimes you're just better off carrying the bike and running. Part of the sport.

In this case, neither would have worked. I tried riding through lots of water for that reason but the mud was too gluey and wasn't even slightly affected. And running on the slippery mud would have been impossible...very hard to even walk up the hill.

I ended up dunking my bike in a lake for 10 minutes to try and get the mud off but was only half successful.

Steve
stevage is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.