Cannondale Cyclocross brake shudder
 

I am a keen participant in local triathlon and duathlon events here in Japan. Last year I purchased a brand new Cyclocross from Cannondale because I wanted a bike that could function both in my sporting pursuits and in my daily commuting needs traveling to and from work. Only 1 or 2 weeks after purchase, the bike developed a very violent shudder upon application of the front brake. After a long and drawn out negotiation with Cannondale Japan, they finally agreed to replace the bike with a brand new 2005 model which I took delivery of just 2 weeks ago. Alas, the exact same problem has developed again. My retailer and local cyclist himself, has done everything he can to rectify the problem but to no avail. I am the first to admit that mechanics is not my forte but such a severe problem on two separate brand new bikes leads me to think there is some problem with the original product. Anyway, the whole process has been and still is very frustrating. Any comments will be most gratefully received.

I'm a bit surprised to hear they exchanged bikes for you simply due to this minor brake symptom which is very common regardless of brand. Out of adjustment pads usually cause this. With proper toe-in these problems usually disappear. I'm assuming they're V-brakes? Have you tried using a different brand of pads? Chotto komari ma****a ne.....

I have the exact same problem that you do: violent shuddering while applying the front brake. I changed my brakes from Avid Shorty 4s to the new Shimanos, in attempt to solve it (and, yes, I have toed my pads in, out, cleaned my rims, tried different pads (kool stops included)). Less squeal but shudder remained :(

I believe that the fork is flexing back and forth, struggling to remain straight from the power of the brakes, and THAT is the shudder. Does anyone agree with this diagnosis? Would a stiffer, or different, fork solve the shuddering?

I would also check to make sure that there is no play in the headset- I had shuddering that was eliminated by tightening the headset and cleaning the rims. (I have a carbon fork with aluminum steerer)

-good luck

Check the obvious, too. Make sure the wheel is true. :)

Given that this has occurred on two brand new bikes, I think its probably safe to rule out a wobbly wheel or loose headset as the cause. My guess is that the shuddering is caused either by poor brake setup, low quality stock brake pads, or braking technique. Getting good braking with cantilevers and road levers is not easy. And even when set up well, the modulation will never be as good on cantilevers as sidepulls. This means you have to pay attention to how you are squeezing the lever. You're probably pulling the lever too hard.

A good experiment would be to ride on flat ground at 25-30 kph, pull the levers enough so that the pads just start to touch the rims. Once they are in contact, very gradually increase the pressure, and note the point at which the shuddering occurs. My guess is you will find an amount of lever pressure that provides adequate braking, but doesn't cause the shudder. If that doesn't solve the problem, your brake setup probably has too much leverage. Here's a good guide to adjusting cantilevers:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/cantilever-adjustment.html

It took me a while to get good at tweaking cantilever brakes, but now I'm a whiz at it. It just takes some experimentation.

I should also add that the stock pads on most brands of brakes are not good. I've had very good luck with Kool Stop MTB pads.

not necessarily. We don't know if his LBS mechanics are a bunch of dorks or not (or real busy and forgot, etc.). I just try to make sure that the obvious is ruled out. It's easy to check it anyway...

I'd like to know if anybody has found either the cause of, or solution to this problem.

I also have a '04 Cannondale Cyclocross 800 with the cantilever brakes, and like the others here, my front brakes have shuddered (to the point of danger in traffic) ever since the bike was new as well.

Over time, I've tried adjusting and finetuning the brake setup myself, changed brakepads, and 3 different bike store mechanics have had a go at fixing the problem as well. Nothing has worked *except* regular applications of 'Ezy-Glide' dry lubricant (yeah, I know) - that makes the brakes perfect: no squealing or shuddering, just smooth progressive braking power.

It feels like the brakes are grabbing so powerfully that indeed the whole fork is flexing, and that the lubricant is what's required to 'ease them up' to the point where the fork shudder doesn't set in. Or maybe it's the wheels - it's kind of hard to tell when you're on the bike.

The wheel is true, and everything in the headset is tight and adjusted, so it's unlikely to be caused by those two potential issues.

If anybody's found a solution that's less ridiculous than squirting EzyGlide onto the pads and wheel every week, I'd love to hear it... or is it just that MTB cantilever brakes and flexible roadie carbon forks just don't match.

Have you thought of trying a brake booster? I've heard good things from people who have had problems with squealing brakes and/or fork/seat stay flex. Easy to install.

I have the Cannondale Cyclocross '05 as well. While I am generally impressed with the frame and fork, I also realize that the stock parts eventually have to go, in this case the wheels and the brakes. One thing to remember is that this bike is a cyclocross race bike, and is not really intended for triathalons or touring/commuting despite those silly and pointless rack eyelets on the dropouts.

As far as the brakes go, in a cyclocross setting they work fine, especially when braking on technical trail sections. The only drawback has been some squeling sounds from the brake pads against the Gipiemme rims when a new coating of mud or moisture gets onto the pads or the rims.

Remember, this is the very same frame and fork the Enrico Franzoi, the Italian national cyclocross champion and former U23 world cyclocross champion was racing on for a few seasons prior to Lampre switching from Cannondale to Willier. The only difference was in his component selection, which was mostly Campagnolo.

This sounds like a problem with flex in the fork and brake bosses.

There is always a problem with making things as light as they can be. Sooner or later someone that is a little heavy handed will really screw your planning up.

At least one of you Cannondale folks should try using a Brake Booster. These are made by several manufacturers and you can get aluminum (AC Products) or Carbon Fiber (Salsa) from several places.

No guarantees this will work though since cantilevers are liable for these sorts of things anyway.

I had this exact same problem with my C'dale touring bike, which came with an aluminum fork (instead of the steel fork the specs showed.) The bike was fine when carrying a load on the front lowriders, but shuddered like hell when unloaded. My LBS worked on this several times and never could get it fixed. They ruled out brake and headset issues. Cannondale was not receptive at all when I asked if whether this was because they used the ultra-stiff overbuilt aluminum fork instead of the fork that their specs showed for this bike. They also refused to believe that my LBS (the c'dale dealer where I had bought the bike) had ruled out the usual suspects. Frankly, they were rude and I won't by another Cannondale again because of this (i've had 4). The problem went away immediately when I swapped out for a Surly Long Haul Trucker fork.

Interesting to see other Cannondale owners chiming in with the same problem.

Looks like the problem is probably in the fork flex combined with excessively effective brakes then. That would accord with what I feel and see on the bike.

By the way: I don't think this is to do with being 'heavy handed' or bad bike handling. Only the gentlest application of the front brake (i.e. useless in slowing the bike) will allow the issue to be limited to squealing. None of the MTB's with canti brakes or roadbikes with calipers that I've ridden or still ride have had the same problem - found some squaling here and there over the years, but just the usual, nothing like what this Cannondale is doing. This is definitely unusual.

The pads on there now (3rd set from new) are special anti-squeal pads put on by the last bike shop mechanic to try and fix the problem. I've also sanded them in an effort to triple ensure there's no glazed layer on top or any such thing.

It's also not something that happens only when new dirt or moisture gets on the rims. Given that some dry lubricant on the rims fixes the problem, I actually wonder if the mud and crud on cross courses actually helps the brakes to work better by virtue of reducing their effectiveness. Without lubricant of some kind, these brakes grab hard - really hard, almost like glue to the rim. Tried different pads, different amounts of toe-in, different positions on the rim vertically, sanding the pads, applied the Sheldon canti brake setup tips, all the usual.

I can't help but think it's the Cannondale component mix somehow. Perhaps the deep rim on the Gipiemme wheels or the small spoke count allows for problematic flex and the resultant grab/release shudder? I might try out a different front wheel from a friend's roadbike and see if that has any effect. I'd like to think I can keep the carbon fork, the bike feels plenty stiff already without adding an alu fork to the equation.

Otherwise, I guess I'll just keep applying the EzyGlide, it works perfectly so maybe it's not such a stupid solution...

He he, I noticed this in the the current Bianchi cyclocrosser specs:

"Cane Creek non-squeal SCX cantilever brakes"

I wonder if Bianchi know something Cannondale don't... might look into these 'non-squeal' canti brakes as a potential retrofit. I love the Cannondale bike apart from the brake issue so swapping to a Bianchi is not on the agenda.

It amazes me that C'dale replaced a bike for brake shudder. In fact, I'm not sure I actually believe that.

I sure do believe he's got a problem with brake shudder, it's very common with canti's and aluminum forks.

Not a lot I know of to do for it either, severe toe in and learn to modulate the front brake. Sometimes it gets better as the pads wear in, and/or get dirt packed into them. A steel or CF fork, usually cures it, I'm told.

Ron

The Cannondale bikes this is happening on already have a CF fork.

I can believe that C'dale replaced a bike due to this particular kind of brake shudder. If this customer's bike is like mine, and it sounds like it, it's basically unsafe in traffic because there's no way you can do an real emergency stop - the front wheel shudders and hops around so badly under hard braking that it loses contact with the road and wipes out. Which would be a concern I imagine for a company in todays world of lawsuits.

One thing to remember about the Cannondale CX is that it is best described as an "out of the box cyclocross racing bike". People who go out and buy cyclocross bikes like this for touring, commuting, or triathalons are never going to fully get the rides or performance they want. Don't be fooled by the silly and pointless rack eyelets on this bike. It is a race machine pure, plain, and simple, and the brakes are designed for slowing the bike when it is caked in mud, being dismounted, and shouldered for a run-up. The front brakes are for light tapping only, to slow down, but why would a racer want to do that anyway?While a savy cyclocrosser with excellent bike handling skills can commute and putz around on this bike with confidence, anyone less will find the bike difficult to handle at times.

I had the same problem with my bike. I had a steel cross fork that was flexing violently, so I replaced it with a Winwood carbon fork that seemed like it would be stiffer. That made a slight improvement, but the shaking was still bad. I messed with toe-in and tried different brake pads with minimal results. The thing that completely cured the problem was changing to a fork mounted brake cable hanger instead of the one mounted up by the stem. I'm not sure I understand why this works, but it really does. I'm not familiar with the fork on the Cannondale, but if it has a through-hole in the center of the crown just below the steer tube, you can mount a cable hanger there. The problem is finding one. I was not able to find one to buy, so I modified and old one I had from a mountain bike to fit the Winwood fork. It solved the problem completely. I believe that if I had done this in the first place, I wouldn't have had to replace the fork at all.

Well, I've just changed the Gipiemme wheels on the Cannondale CX to the OEM Bianchis that came on a new road bike, basically just to see if the different wheelset would change anything.

It did, in that the shudder is now much more pronounced, the good thing is it's now very easy to see from the saddle that it's definitely the carbon fork flexing about half an inch or so back and forth when the brakepads are applied with anything more than the very gentlest touch.

I'd agree with jpearlk above that this fork/brake combo is obviously only intended for the lightest tapping on loose surfaces - that's all it can do, due to the fork flex/chatter it has no effective stopping power compared to a normal MTB or roadbike.

I can and have been riding the bike around town as well as on trails etc, but I do have to constantly remind myself to leave more emergency braking space in front of me compared to my road bike.

Whether this is acceptable performance for an ex-factory component combination I don't know.

I also still wonder if there's more going on, i.e. whether my carbon fork has a defect of some kind that makes it flex so much under what's in reality moderate braking. The amount of flex happening is pretty impressive for such a big/solid looking carbon fork. If it's not prohibitively expensive, I may try buying a replacement from Cannondale to see if there is a difference. The rest of the bike's so enjoyable that it's worth some effort.

Let me add another data point. '06 Cannondale/Cyclocross/Carbon Fork shudder. For me, it's only when it's very humid or slightly wet. When dry, sloppy wet, muddy-cruddy-gritty. . .it's just fine.

I just love when simple thoughts come to the simple-minded like myself, usually after the fact as well. Here goes:

One cause of the shudder could be improperlly-toed brake shoes. If those front brake shoes are properlly toed-in, as they are on my Cannondale, they will provide silky-smooth stopping and slowing, as they do. If they are improperly toed-in, they will most likelly provide the front-end shutter as described in the opening post of this thread.

It sounds like the brakes already were toed. If you notice, the steel fork seems to cure the problem. I never experienced this on any of my steel bikes. While aluminum is very light it aint perfect. I hate to suggest buying a new fork because your bike vibrates but that might be the only solution. That or dump the Cannondale and get something else.

Tim