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Cyclocross and Gravelbiking (Recreational) This has to be the most physically intense sport ever invented. It's high speed bicycle racing on a short off road course or riding the off pavement rides on gravel like : "Unbound Gravel". We also have a dedicated Racing forum for the Cyclocross Hard Core Racers.

Cross-Check: Hot or not?

Old 02-23-05, 09:53 AM
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Besides the 4130 CrMo, the other bummer about the Surly (and Soma) is that the rear triangle tubes are not butted; hence the heafty weight. Of course, it's probably more rugged and that's why they call it Surly! But, for 'only' $200 more, you can get a LeMond Poprad frame made from Reynolds 853 & fully butted. But, you lose fender/rack mounts, rear spacing options, etc. My LBS called for me the other day, and LeMond still has a few 2004 frames left.
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Old 02-23-05, 11:27 AM
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One major issue for me is that if you are planning on running single speed, you'll have to spend another $135 or so for an eccentric hub on most other bikes. Surly's horizontal dropout makes it that much more versatile.
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Old 02-23-05, 05:30 PM
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Originally Posted by dpvwia
Besides the 4130 CrMo, the other bummer about the Surly (and Soma) is that the rear triangle tubes are not butted; hence the heafty weight.
Funny, my CrossCheck feels pretty friggin' light once I pull 15 lbs of water bottles, lights and panniers off. What I'm saying here is that for the average commuter the half pound - maybe - that you gain with a butted rear triangle is pretty inconsequential in the overall equation. It is also figuratively outweighed by the aforementioned niceties such as hub spacing, semi-horizontal dropouts and rack and fender mounts. Sure, I'd like to start with a titanium cyclocross frame... but for the guy or gal on a budget, the extra money is better spent elsewhere.

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Old 02-23-05, 05:34 PM
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Originally Posted by DanO220
. . . Sure, I'd like to start with a titanium cyclocross frame... but for the guy or gal on a budget, the extra money is better spent elsewhere.
DanO
Good point. As someone who frequently commutes at night, lighting is a priority. I'm much, much better off with a Cross Check and an HID than with a lighter frame and an LED.

Others will have different priorities. Cyclists should put their money where they get the biggest bang.

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Old 02-25-05, 07:35 PM
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Actually, I just did some double checking, and the Soma (at least the current version) does have a butted rear triangle; it also has the 132.5mm spacing like the Surly. But, at $400 the Surly includes the front fork while the Soma does not (an extra $110). So, at $500 for the Soma frame and fork, the $600 LeMond with True Temper/Reynolds and alloy fork looks a lot more attractive. Maybe that's why the LeMond's sell out every friggin' year. Still, the flexibility of the Surly/Soma's is great. I'll never decide....
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Old 02-25-05, 11:27 PM
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it's interesting, though. i only think of cyclo-cross as racing -- in fact, cyclo-cross is only racing -- so i tend to think of a cyclo-cross bike as a race bike. while i agree that, as much as i would like one, a ti bike probably isn't reasonable for me, i do look for a bike i can race. and wendy simms notwithstanding, i don't think of the surly in those terms. having said that, i've seen some surly's and they're pretty funky rides. if i was looking for a solid commuter, i'd certainly consider it.
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Old 02-26-05, 06:40 AM
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Originally Posted by velocipedio
it's interesting, though. i only think of cyclo-cross as racing -- in fact, cyclo-cross is only racing -- so i tend to think of a cyclo-cross bike as a race bike. . . .
You might not say that if you took your fully loaded cross bike along bumpy, icy paths. A cross bike is great for commuting for many of the same reasons it's great on a cross race course--a fanatastic balance between speed and the ability to handle adverse conditions. No road bike could handle the worst parts of my commute. No MTB could give me the speed I want.
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Old 02-26-05, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by velocipedio
it's interesting, though. i only think of cyclo-cross as racing -- in fact, cyclo-cross is only racing -- so i tend to think of a cyclo-cross bike as a race bike. while i agree that, as much as i would like one, a ti bike probably isn't reasonable for me, i do look for a bike i can race. and wendy simms notwithstanding, i don't think of the surly in those terms. having said that, i've seen some surly's and they're pretty funky rides. if i was looking for a solid commuter, i'd certainly consider it.
I don't think that I have ever seen it argued that mountain bikes are strictly for riding in mountains. (Illinois bike dealers would have a real problem marketing here.)
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Old 02-26-05, 07:50 AM
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mreworm... cyclo-cross, as a sport, is racing and nothing else. if you're not racing, you're not doing cyclo-cross. you might be riding a cyclo-cross bike, but it's not the sport of cyclo-cross. the sport is the race.
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Old 02-26-05, 08:04 AM
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"mreworm... cyclo-cross, as a sport, is racing and nothing else. if you're not racing, you're not doing cyclo-cross. you might be riding a cyclo-cross bike, but it's not the sport of cyclo-cross. the sport is the race."

Contains double and triple negative statements, so it is a bit confusing.

Lets bring in an example other than mountain bikes.

Football is a sport. A football is also a thing.
To confuse matters more, the definition of the sport "football" or the object "football" depends pretty much on which continent you reside.

According to your definition, someone playing a game resembling the NFL game is not really playing football unless they have clocks, chalk line fields, referrees etc. A father tossing a ball to his son would not be playing football. A 5 man team, scrimmaging in the dirt would not be playing football.
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Old 02-26-05, 08:14 AM
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mreworm. cyclo-cross is a sport in the same way that triathlon is a sport and biathlon is a sport. you might have a triathlon bicycle or biathlon skis, but you are not actually doing the sport unless you are racing. it doesn't have to be a sanctioned race, but it has to be a race. there is no such thing as non-competitive cyclo-cross. if you are not in a cyclo-cross race, then you are not doing cyclo-cross, even if you happen to be riding a cyclo-cross bike.

is that simple enough for you?

having said that, bikes designed for the sport of cyclo-cross are quite versatile machines. they are fine light tourers, commuters, light trail bikes and early/late season road bike. however, when you are riding a cyclo-cross bike while touring, commuting, etc., you are tgouring and commuting. you are not doing cyclo-cross.

i know that there are a lot of guys who buy the bike and would like to believe that this makes them a "cyclo-crosser." there actually seems to be some romance associated with the sport. but to be a cyclo-crosser, you gotta race, just as to be a marathoner, you gotta race marathons.
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Old 02-26-05, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by velocipedio
. . .
having said that, bikes designed for the sport of cyclo-cross are quite versatile machines. they are fine light tourers, commuters, light trail bikes and early/late season road bike. however, when you are riding a cyclo-cross bike while touring, commuting, etc., you are tgouring and commuting. you are not doing cyclo-cross.

i know that there are a lot of guys who buy the bike and would like to believe that this makes them a "cyclo-crosser." there actually seems to be some romance associated with the sport. but to be a cyclo-crosser, you gotta race, just as to be a marathoner, you gotta race marathons.
And I could say that until you've ridden your cross bike on a dark, snow and ice covered path, at 0F, with loaded panniers, and no one to rely on but yourself, you haven't done cyclocross. Going around in circles with support waiting seems, well, not as tough.

In all seriousness, cyclocross racing and cyclocross commuting have done a lot for each other. As a result of racing, a fast, versatile bike has been developed that commuters can use. And cyclocross commuters are a new source of cyclocross racers and race fans. The racers should be careful not to dis' the commuters.

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Old 02-26-05, 10:23 AM
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tough or not, riding "your cross bike on a dark, snow and ice covered path at 0F with loaded panniers and no one to rely on but yourself" is not cyclo-cross. cyclo-cross is a specific sport with specific rules. you can ride to waork on a time-trial bike, but that doesn't make the ride a time-trial.

i'm not being a snob here. i ride my cyclo-cross bike all the time for training and fun, but i know that what i'm doing is training and fun, and not cyclo-cross. it's important to know the difference.

if you want to do cyclo-cross, then do cyclo-cross.
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Old 02-26-05, 10:28 AM
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I guess we disagree on the definition of the word. You think you do "cyclocross." I think I do "cyclocross." You use it narrowly. I use it broadly. I don't think another round of yes-it-is-no-it-isn't is going to resove this.
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Old 02-26-05, 10:45 AM
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hey... if you want to think your commute is cyclo-cross, that's okay. i guess you think of your after-dinner walk as a marathon, too? that's okay, too.

my problem is that, when we loosen definitions of words to eman whatever we want them to mean, the words have no meaning.
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Old 02-26-05, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by velocipedio
hey... if you want to think your commute is cyclo-cross, that's okay. i guess you think of your after-dinner walk as a marathon, too? that's okay, too.

my problem is that, when we loosen definitions of words to eman whatever we want them to mean, the words have no meaning.
I thought going in circles with support all around was more like an after dinner walk, while commuting was more like a marathon, but heh, to each his own. MrEWorm has it right with the football analogy. Doing a sport is more than the competition day.

I think "cyclocross" means riding a bicycle with dropped handlebars off road. It does not necessarily mean competition. If competition were part of the definition, no one would say "cyclocross race" because that would be redundant. But my Google search for "cyclocross race" came up with nearly 10,000 hits. Clearly, many, many people think that "doing cyclocross" is not limited to competition.

Why do you think it means only competition?

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Old 02-26-05, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by velocipedio
mreworm... cyclo-cross, as a sport, is racing and nothing else. if you're not racing, you're not doing cyclo-cross. you might be riding a cyclo-cross bike, but it's not the sport of cyclo-cross. the sport is the race.

So if I'm on the local singletrack on my mtb, I'm not mountain biking? Only if I'm entered in a race?

Guess I should quit lying to myself and leave the trails to the real athletes.
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Old 02-26-05, 05:30 PM
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this is actually pretty funny. by this standard, rolling a baseball along the ground would be "playing baseball," and sitting on a surfboard would be "surfing." and riding a mountain bike in city traffic would be "mountain biking." perhaps floating on you back in the pool while listenikng to music is synchronized swimming and any day that you've swam cycled and run or walked is a triathlon?

look, there are specific rules for cyclo-cross, just as there are rules for hockey, rugby, triathlons, shot put and any other sport you'd care to mention. these rules define the sport. if you are rididing you bike in a context governed by these rules, you are doing cyclo-cross. if you are not, you are just cycling.

you can ride a cyclo-cross bike in a crit, but that doesn't make what you're doing cyclo-cross, and you can ride a mountain bike in most local cyclo-cross races, but that doesn't make it mountain biking.

none of this is really all that difficult to understand.

having said that, i can understand why you'd like to glorify just riding as the sport of cyclo-cross. it's a cool sport and a lot of fun. but there's nothing wrong with just riding, noi matter what kind of bike you ride. i do it most of the year -- i only do six or eight cyclo-cross races a year. just riding a bike is nothing to be ashamed of.
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Old 02-26-05, 05:38 PM
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slopvehicle... let me see if i can explain this by analogy... i'm an off-season runner. if i run 21 km -- which is not uncommon -- i will have covered the distance of a half-marathon. however, if i do not do it in the context of a half-marathon event, it is not a half-marathon, it is a run of a "half-marathon distance."

the principal difference between mountain biking and cyclo-cross is that the former did not begin as a competitive sport -- that was added later -- whicle cyclo-cross has only ever been a competitive sport. mountain biking means riding off-road on a mountain bike. cyclo-cross does not even require a cyclo-cross bike. indeed, specific cyclo-cross bikes did not even exist for the first few decades of the sport. indeed, the sport has always meant a short-track multiple lap event over a variety of terrain and road surfaces with obstacles requiring dismounts and running [this latter, incidentally, is the "cross" in cyclo-cross]. the cyclo-cross bike evolved to enable the sport. on the other hand, the mountain bike preceded the emergence of moutain bike racing.
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Old 02-26-05, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by velocipedio
. . .look, there are specific rules for cyclo-cross, just as there are rules for hockey, rugby, triathlons, shot put and any other sport you'd care to mention. these rules define the sport. if you are rididing you bike in a context governed by these rules, you are doing cyclo-cross. if you are not, you are just cycling. . . .
Your source proves my point. It talks about "cyclo-cross races." By your definition, it should just say "cyclo-cross" because the word "race" would not be needed.

So, to be more precise. There are no rules for "cyclo-cross," but there are rules for "cyclo-cross races."
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Old 02-26-05, 07:31 PM
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daily commute... i guess you can believe what you want. i'm not offended, but i do find it absurd. if cyclo-cross is anything done on a cyclo-cross bike and virtually any bike can be a cyclo-cross bike [since regional races permit everything from unicycles to tandems], then anything and everything is cyclo-cross. if you like living in a world where nothing actually means anything, then that's great.

me? i laugh.
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Old 02-26-05, 08:26 PM
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velocipedio,

Any chance you could let it go? Or possibly start a new thread to discuss it?
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Old 02-26-05, 08:42 PM
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"This has to be the most physically intense sport ever invented. It's high speed bicycle racing on a short off road course, riding racing style bikes! Learn more about this sport here."
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Old 02-27-05, 04:14 AM
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Originally Posted by velocipedio
daily commute... i guess you can believe what you want. i'm not offended, but i do find it absurd. . . . me? i laugh.
I laugh too. I showed you nearly 10,000 examples when people added the word "race" to "cyclo-cross," which means that they believed the word "cyclo-cross" did not, itself, include racing. And as your own example shows, even the UCI believes it's necessary to add the word "race" to "cyclo-cross" when talking about racing.

If widely held, an attitude like yours would turn people away from your "sport." Fortunately, it seems you are isolated in your views.

As I said above, my definition of "cyclo-cross" is riding a bicycle with dropped handlebars off road (and off paved path). What you are talking about is "cyclo-cross racing."

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Old 02-27-05, 04:20 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by MrEWorm
"mreworm... cyclo-cross, as a sport, is racing and nothing else. if you're not racing, you're not doing cyclo-cross. you might be riding a cyclo-cross bike, but it's not the sport of cyclo-cross. the sport is the race."
Sigh
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