2old

Images, be extremely careful mounting your system and I'd use two torque arms. You're going to generate big time torque.

jyl

I have a view on why e-bikes are not more popular for commuting.

The obstacles to bike commuting are time (how long it takes), effort (physical extertion), risk (cars, crashes), weather (rain, cold, etc), and security (bike theft).

A legal e-bike doesn't go very fast, only 20 mph on motor alone. That is much too slow to be riding in the traffic lanes, along the cars, on most roads. A fit cyclist could, of course, add human power to the motor power and go considerably faster. But most people riding e-bikes aren't fit cyclists. Sorry if that ruffles your feathers, but that's what I see out there.

As a result, most e-bike riders have to ride at regular cyclist speeds - 10-20 mph- and thus their commute takes just as much time as on a regular bicycle. They have to ride where regular cyclists do - shoulder of road, edge of traffic lanes between moving and parked cars, sometimes a bike lane - thus they have the same risks. And obviously they face the same weather challenges as a regular cyclist, and have the same problems with theft.

So the e-bike helps with the effort part, but not with all the other obstacles to bike commuting. It turns out that, for most people who are inclined to bike commute, the effort part is not a big deal, and for many of them it is actually a benefit.

How many people are willing to take longer to get to work, get squeezed and buzzed by cars, be wet and cold, and deal with finding secure bike parking . . . but don't want to, or aren't capable of, making the physical effort necessary to ride a regular bike?

I think that is just a pretty small group of people.

Of course, there are also the folks who commute on cargo bikes carrying kids over 20 miles of steep hills - so regardless of their inclination to physical effort, they would really benefit from electric assist. That's a small number of people too.

Then there's the cost of an e-bike, the relative newness of the product, the lack of any well known brands, and the alternative of a scooter.

gsa103

Realistically, no. The added weight of motors, racks, batteries, etc, coupled with wider tires and less aerodynamics, means that a typical e-bike needs ~300-400W to travel at the same speed as ~200W on a road bike. To travel significantly faster, you need to get into the ~750W motor to cruise at 20-25 mph. With that much motor power, anything other than a pro cyclist isn't going to meaningfully increase the speed.

I would love a lightweight 250W rear motor built into a road frame, since you could get great mileage and decent speed off a small battery, but those aren't real popular.

tcs

Ebikes, like mopeds, motorcycles with very small engines and bicycles fitted with engines, are not a clearly defined part of the Federal Motor Vehicle Standards. Each state of the United States creates their own definitions and laws to define these transport machines and govern how they fit into traffic and public road use. In some states these machines are not legal to use in any embodiment short of complying with full motorcycle specifications. Further, companies that make, market and sell Ebikes might have to come up with a handful of different configurations of each basic design to meet the laws and definitions of the remaining states that would permit the use of Ebikes in some embodiment.

Ebikes need to be governed by a US national standard that makes a single design legal everywhere in America.

dilkes

See These e-bikes look just like bicycles on the outside, but ride like an electric : TreeHugger

tds101 

These bikes look perfect for the average rider,...aka ME! Gorgeous!!!

2old

I'd like one too, but not a crowdfund person; soon something like that will be in stores.

tds101 

I hope they hit the stores. I'd love one,...

mrranger

One reason ebikes have not been more popular is that the popular bike mags and consumer mags, don't review them on a regular basis. Plus, cost. I reached out to the editorial staff at Consumer Reports and they don't have any plans to review any ebikes in the near future.

Also, is there a national ebike association that talks up ebikes? I'd think with the huge wave of boomers hitting retirement years, a simple ebike that takes strains off of their knees would be popular.

In California, the Governor signed a bill that said ebikes are allowed on all state controlled bike trails.

NoPhart

Well... E-bikes that meet certain speifications and type/class levels. The good thing is a Class-1 E-bike is considered a bicycle and can be ridden anywhere a bicycle can. Class-1 is a pedallec electric assist no more than 750W with a 20mph assist limit and no throttle. Other Classes can be ridden, but have limitations different than a basic bicycle.

350htrr

Yea, see, there the "problem", What "is" an E-Assist bike, and what "is" an E-Bike...? Maybe even a moped... or a Motorized bike?... IMO anything with a motor more powerful than 350 watts, and you don't really have to pedal, & or has a throttle is NOT a Bicycle... Pretty basic... Lawyers, profits, industry, made up rules, $$$ that is the difference I suspect, $$$

NoPhart

Another "grey" area is if watts are measured as stated on the motor or peak watt output???

My 350W BaFang has a ~650W peak output. Still not over the 750W limit, so I'm good either way, but...

I support E-assist bikes big time, but I can see why standard mountain bike riders are guarded when it comes to maintained MTB trails and people that might sneak 1000W+ motorcycles with pedals onto them. Everyone loses if that starts happenning.

Now back to commuting...

350htrr

For commuting ... seems like the rules are very flexible... but for trail rides, a "limit" must, be adhered to, or total fail of the E-Assist bike is going to be experienced... As a backlash is just around the corner... JMO...

2old

I think that bikes like the Bosch, Brose and Yamaha 20 mph max assist (maybe even 15 mph) PAS only is the max that should be permitted off road.

momsonherbike

I (also) have a view on why e-bikes are not more popular for commuting. I think it is mostly due to a lack of where to find good, qualified information on EVERY form of motor out there best suited for that person's particular commute.

For the past month or more - during the regional rides I've been attending (30-40 mile divisions) - my ebike has been the subject of many a curious "regular" cyclist, and about 90% have said they really would love to, or have plans to, convert another bike to an ebike to commute, or give to a spouse that can no longer use a standard bike due to age, illness, or injury.

BUT...they don't know where to go to get the kind of information they need to suit their particular goal. One and all tell me that they are confused by what is out there, and don't know who to go to get the right information. Bike shops aren't any help at all - most don't sell ebikes, and those that do have maybe one mfr complete ebike to show, or are pushing middrives. The size of battery seems to be a huge concern, too - most don't want to lug around 10lbs of battery to go 20 miles. But that's what's being thrown at them by the clueless bike shops, or the websites that just seem to promote 1,000w mountain bikes.

And so these people I've met are floundering. They don't want to have to do welding or soldering. They want to either plug and play, or have a bike person put all the component parts together, but then where to find that person that knows what they are doing AND can tell the new ebike owner how to properly care for their new ebike? These prospective ebike commuters are still looking at their donor bikes still hanging on the wall in the garage, and are still in their cars. They WANT to be riding a bike, but not a regular bike. They want an assist. But they also want qualified help...or get insight from someone that has a road ebike already, is using it, and can answer questions logically. They are fascinated by my bike (having seen it in action during the ride zipping past them going up a hill, so they come looking for me at the rest stops to get a closer look), and they all have intelligent questions to ask.

I love talking to these folks and have given out a lot of information on my 250w ehub (a "plug and play" from Clean Republic that sips power, goes up to 21mph on the flat, and gets well over 20 miles on hilly courses on one compact 4.5 lb lith battery), but I'm thinking I need to do up a quick reference card with websites they can look up to get more information on a wide variety of options designed for commuters, not mountain bikers bombing trails.

I know this is just a "few rat study" from my own experiences, but it tells me that a lack of quality understandable reference resources for "ready to go" commuter ebike options is the biggest hindrance towards getting people on an ebike, and out of the car. It's a big leap of faith to take, not to mention the cash outlay, and most don't want to jump in the deep end with both feet until they have seen an ebike in operation *in the real world*. And to be honest, in all these organized rides I've been doing, with hundreds and hundreds of riders on bikes all around me, I am still the sole ebike in the crowd. That's a real shame.

Just my observed 2 cents.

Doc_Wui

From my print edition of Time Magazine 6-13-2016

"Western Europeans will buy 1.6 million E-bikes this year....In the USA that figure is estimated to be just 140,000 in 2016. The design of US cities may be hindering adoption. Roads are tailored for driving, with bike lanes for traditional cycling. Urban planners haven't figured out how to solve the in-between. 'You can't have a 25 mph electric bicycle and pedestrians in the same environment" says a transportation planner for Los Angeles based architectural/engineering firm Aecom."

The article goes on to quote Karmic Bikes founder Hong Quan and pictures his $1899 Karmic Koben. Also pictured are a $2190 folding GI Flybike, a $9940 Stromer ST2, and a $2295 Biomega OKO. It mentions how NYC prohibits motor driven bicycles.

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I think the article is off on a tangent. We are mostly recreational riders in the USA. I wish my town had bike lanes, and am not interested in 25 mph in traffic. However, I am lucky to live next to an expanding bikeway that has trees, prairie and water. Until I discovered it, riding suburban streets was no fun.

TransitBiker

For one, there are too many options, and many legal variations that may or may not classify these as a motor vehicle (legitimate or not). Then you have the hub vs bottom bracket power. Hub power is limited to an rpm/ output range that often cannot help past a certain speed and is fixed to the rotation of the wheel and not the pedals. Bottom bracket designs take full advantage of gearing & the fact that you're not spinning or turning the weight with the wheel, however they often require a specially designed frame to fit the motor in the bottom bracket area.

Hub motors are relatively simple to employ, and if it has the battery built in, it saves space on the frame & allows use on a wide variety of readily available models. That said I've not seen a design that allows for disc brakes, and some are integral to the wheel, which means spokes need to be different lengths for each wheel. The bottom bracket is ideal for electric drive only, as it takes full advantage of the gearing (if applicable). The other benefit is that it sits low on the frame, lowering the fixed center of gravity. The main issue with MBB is that the batteries typically need to be housed externally either under the rear rack or somewhere tucked into a frame element. The other issue that I touched on before is the fact that the frame itself is "non-standard" to allow the incorporation of the motor via large diameter space to what is normally a fairly narrow section of transverse tube. This larger opening can hypothetically become the weak point for fatigue and cracking.

On top of the often quirky compromise of either design is the price. So you have these somewhat awkward bikes that cost far more than the "pure velicipede". Combine this all with the somewhat infantile/ignorant (people call electric trains choo choo & depict modern trains as steam hauled here) view of anything not automobile & you see that unlike in the earlier eras of people powered vehicles, there is a considerable "invisible barrier" to overcome.

I'd love an electric bike, but taking cost then design vs my needs, there isn't one out there for me.

- Andy

2old

Mom & Trans, good, thoughtful points, but an individual can come to this site and find many "helpers". Initial problem is defining goals, terrain and price range. I converted a frame to a rear hub ebike for $600 (probably $700 now). It goes 32 mph with a range (no pedaling) of 10 - 15 miles depending on how fast I go; I always pedal, so get more mileage. Also, there are expos around the country where there are 100 - 200 bikes to try.

InTheRain

Really? From what I have seen of L.A. traffic and transportation/planning, nobody is able to hit a top speed of 25 mph on any type of transportation infrastructure in the area. It's the "experts" that created that mess, right?

Fortunately, my community is very bike friendly with an abundance of bike lanes and MUP's that makes getting around on a bicycle relatively safe and enjoyable. The unfortunate thing is that many of the people in the community have not discovered this... they still prefer their cars. It's fine with me. I see very few people on bikes in comparison to what the bicycling infrastructure can handle. I don't think that will change until gasoline prices climb to $10+ per gallon (highly unlikely in the near future.)

I guess a lot of my cycling is "recreational." I have places to go that are a short distance from my home (10 mile radius), I might as well ride my bike (e-bike or regular bike) and have fun doing it.

tattoogunman

I also think there is a huge disconnect between the average citizen here in the U.S. and the average citizen who lives abroad. Again, I will call on my time spent in Europe. People overseas are typically not as lazy as Americans are (no offense) and the general layout of most cities is conducive to either public transport or walking/biking as it is. Americans do not want to get out of their car comfort zone, even if they are commuting relatively short distances. I think I read where the average commute in the United States is something in the neighborhood of 7 miles (bear in mind that's the *average* and not what everyone does) and that's well within the range for the vast majority of the population - even people who aren't that fit (enter the e-bike again). We also don't have the best infrastructure in the United States that many other countries do when it comes to bicycles (although some states are better than others). So I think the more important question to ask is why hasn't cycling to work in general taken off here in North America and not so much e-bikes alone. The easy answer is that we're lazy and don't want to give up our cars/trucks/SUV's. Once you look at that factor, then you can look at all the rest like cost, lack of availability in LBS for many people, etc.

Roytoy

The reason I commute on my ebike is because it knocks out some exercise time that I would normally have to spend in a humid, germ-ridden gym. People try so hard to have the discipline necessary to get them up off the couch.

I can lay around all day Sunday, guilt free, knowing that I pedaled at least 20 miles the week before. I always pedal, and only use the PA on a low enough set point as to overcome the weight of the bike and some of the friction from the fat tires.

I do realize how lucky I am to live in a state with less than a million people. I only saw one car on the way to work this morning at 5:30 am. I can ride right down the middle of the road in the turning lane at least half of the way to work. I'm sure that in the more heavily populated areas there are plenty of the reasons mentioned in this thread that would deter a bicycle commuter.

Winter will come, and then I will envy the CA folks for their sweet rides to work.

gsa103

Part of the problem is that most newer bikes can't take front hub motors, since they have suspension or carbon forks. So people may have bikes that they would like to convert, they can't practically do it. And the people with the disposable income to spend several hundred dollars on a conversion typically aren't buying the low-end bikes you need as a donor. Realistically, the only bikes that can be easily converted are older rigid 26" mountain bikes with V-brakes. Everything else is a compatibility nightmare.

momsonherbike

Which is why the very first question I ask - when they tell me they want to convert a bike - is "what type of bike?" Almost all are converting their wives old step through bike, and that's when the conversation turns to steel is OK, aluminum and carbon fiber isn't unless you use torque arms (and then explain what that is) and really limit the power to 250w. NONE of these folk use a mountain bike - they all have either road bikes, hybrids, or a WalMart wonder that is parked on a wall gathering dust. The road bikes are an issue - but my suggestion is always to leave the road bike as is because it is faster than anything out there. Anything with suspension - I suggest a back hub. A 250-350W motor front hub is easily adaptable for disk or V-brakes. Explaining the ease of changing over a front wheel (for repair, transport, etc) vs changing a back wheel is easily understood by these riders, and becomes more important when you add a motor to the mix, as well as where on the bike the weight will be distributed. None of these people have expressed an interest in going faster than 20mph. None. They are looking at a street bike they can commute with, or a bike for a disabled friend/loved one that wants to enjoy biking again.

Today at our club ride the one gentleman that is looking to have an e-wheel for his wife told me that he looked at the ebike in a local shop - they only had one ebike to display - and he about died at the price. It was just too outrageous, he said. He's going to go with the conversion instead, and has the perfect bike to do so. Also today met 4 people doing a tour with heavily loaded bikes on the Alleghany Gap trail to Pittsburg, and the first question I got (after they crowded around with oooooo's and ahhhhhh's once I showed them how the ewheel works - pick it up, push the button, the wheel starts to spin, and eyes widen and pop with interest!) was 'how far can you go on your battery?" For them it wasn't the design, it was the length of time that power would be available. They were planning on doing 50 miles today, so that was uppermost in their minds. (One was already having equipment issues - sticking pedal - but not inclined to stop in at a bike shop for a look-see. I hope she'll be OK. Don't know why she'd want to deal with that for the next 140 miles, but....)

Interesting.

I like talking to these people, I like energizing them on the ebike idea, and - most of all - I'd love to see more ebikes out on the road and in the public eye.

BTW - there are LOTS of ebikes in Key West. LOTS!

Roytoy

This is what happened to me. 2 bikes that were terrible candidates for conversion. I found the one that I ride now because I was on Craigslist looking for a cheap steel bike to convert. While on there I typed in Electric and mine popped up. I bought it the next day. $1800 and it's been bulletproof. I think for the average incomed commuter that would be affordable as a primary commuting vehicle. No license or insurance.

vincent713

That brings up a good point about those high over priced ebikes, this is part of the reasons people are thrown off. What they don't know is there are places and websites you can buy a decent ebike with great service and warranty from $849 to 1200 price range.