kickstart

You're being duplicitous.

NoPharts comments were of a technical nature, rather than sticking to the subject by simply stating that you find the BioniX system adequate for your needs without using the throttle, you used it as an excuse to once again go into your tirade against throttles.

350htrr

Yes, and... I actually agreed with you, Bosch IS taking a chance in the N American market by taking the no throttle for their system stance. BionX recognized/understood the demand 5+ years or so ago, and thus has a throttle for their system in N America, but not in the EU.

350htrr

Perhaps you should re-read my statement, I actually agreed with NoPhart about Bosch maybe missing out, failing in reading the N American mindset/market. I did also say I agreed with Bosch too (what they are trying to do)... If that comes across as duplicitous, too bad...

kickstart

A local e-bike retailer who sells bikes with the Bosch system specifically recommended other systems with a throttle for my circumstance of being a heavy rider in extremely hilly terrain.
When a retailer suggests some of the bikes they sell are likely to be inadequate for someones needs, and suggest bikes they don't sell, I think it's wise to listen.

350htrr

And... What IS inadequate/adequate...? Well now, That IS, a wide open subject... You want to go down that road,? I would say about 2,000 watts with a throttle would "probably" cover 99.99% of the people who want to ride a bicycle with "assistance"... And.. "If" they want/are able to ride with less assistance they can choose the level of assistance at will... Works for me for people who need it, but not, in a general sense... Meaning trying to get more people to ride a bicycle with enough assistance to get them off their butts, but not make it a "moped"...

EDIT; As I am 100% sure there are others out there that want/would ride a bicycle "if" it had enough power, to make it up all the hills and not pedal, or not pedal much... because they have some "problems"... Well now, a permit would solve that problem... They could have an E-Assist bike with whatever power levels they need... NO problem, from anyone, certainly NOT ME...

kickstart

I have no interest in your opinions, or any desire to discuss them any further as it has no relevance to the subject, or laws in my, or the OP's state.

350htrr

and... Here we are, at a huge impasse... As it would seem that the "Laws" out there seem to support your way of what is needed for an E-Bike "law" all's good. What about the people who want to ride a bicycle but need more than 750 watts of assist, even with a throttle...? F'em, is that what you are saying..? What I am saying/trying to say is there are different priorities for different people, a blanket "law" that is just "trying to get more average couch potatoes type of people to ride a bicycle" does NOT work for all, including maybe you...

NoPhart

Quoting myself....

It's really the "weight" of this particular ride that makes me push it into the moped category. I really like the general design of full suspension geometry with a rear rack. I honestly think this general design in a non-electric bike would sell well if they can make it as light a other FS MTB's (no real reason they can't). What a great touring MTB / camping bike it would be. That seems right up RM's alley. RM, get the weigh and price down, and you'll have a winner!

BillyD

Hmmmm, these are not admirable qualities on a discussion forum. Just saying. Please leave this thread and don't return to this discussion. PM me if you would like to discuss this further, thanks!

kickstart

They could possibly lower the price $1000 by offering a version Using a Nuvinci instead of a Rohloff, a different headlight, chain instead of belt, single battery, and maybe a few component downgrades.

Weight reduction other than not having the second battery would likely drive up the price.

Dunbar

According to this video they do actually offer the bike with a nuvinci hub at a lower cost.

kickstart

I suppose that could make a difference for some folks, and personally I would prefer the Nuvinci, but I must admit I didn't look at it that closely as it's outside my price range even though my e-bike is my primary transportation.

PatrickGSR94

Never thought about needing throttle only for trail use, but it makes sense. Sometimes I have wished for a button that would cut PAS altogether, and "override" of sorts, to allow throttle only, and then press the button again to go back to the PAS level I was at before. It's rather annoying to have to push the minus button repeatedly to get down to PAS 0 if I was up in 5 or 6 before, and need to go back to that level shortly after.

NoPhart

Patrick - You can do that on your BBS02 using the USB programming cable. That is one of the big reasons I ordered it weeks ago (apparently on backorder, because I have not received it...). This is a clip from my BBS02 programming WORD file I've created; of which some is copied from internet articles on the best programming changes for the BBS02:

BBS02 REPROGRAMMING

There are 2 schools of thought on programming the BBS02. One school is represented by Paul (cellman) from em3ev who believes that you should make only minor changes to the software such as
• Allow higher powered throttle at any PAS level
• Allow throttle at PAS level 0 so you don’t have to disconnect the PAS entirely to use throttle only
• Low voltage cutoff (41V for 48V & 43V for 50V?)
• Amps to the unit (18A-25A?)
Quotes from Paul about the much contested PAS system
“The PAS level should be used to set the pedal cadence. Just because it’s set to 9, does not mean it will pull more power (although it likely will of course), but if you pedal fast enough and hard enough to do much of the work, the kit will not provide much power. PAS works like a switch on the BBS02. It does not adjust as you pedal faster or slower. When you set the PAS level it fixes the speed and it does not want to rotate at a speed much lower than that, or even accelerate smoothly to that speed.”
That is why setting the throttle to override the PAS setting works so well. You're cruising at speed using little power assist and want to accelerate, just hit the throttle without having to change the PAS level. Works great for hills and yellow lights. Off-road it allows you to downshift for a climb AND apply MORE power at the same time. Once you 've topped the hill, just release the throttle and up-shift, and you are right back where you were prior to the climb without ever changing the PAS level setting.

Have you got your computer to accept the COM PORT yet? We can take this conversation over to my Soma B-Side build thread if you want to discuss it more, although I won't have any hands on experience until my programming cable arrives...

NoPhart

Yeah retail prices for this bike in various configurations range from 4,319L(~$5,582) to 5759L(~$7,443) for the Rohloff Speed model. Too rich for my blood as well.

BBassett

I didn't want any bike that had a proprietary motor (and in some cases battery) and especially one that is less than 750w. Both the R&M Delite and the TT Panamericana come in standard and pinion drive. I chose my Panamerican over the Delite because it carries more weight and I have never seen a single picture of one with 4 panniers.

NoPhart

Nice setup!

Is that an umbrella or fishing pole strapped to your top tube?

PatrickGSR94

Probably 'brella, I think some bikes have ways of attaching it to the bars e.g. Dutch folk riding in the rain.

kickstart

Yes they do, and if you have any doubts about using one at speed, watch the video.

dilkes

See
Durable Golf Club Umbrella Holder Stand For Buggy Cart Baby Pram Wheelchair Bike | eBay

BBassett

It is a Senz XXL Storm umbrella. My fishing pole is in the trailer, with the solar over, collapsable sink and portable shower.

BBassett

The NuVinci transmission is a seriously pretty little girl that I would love to play with, but I don't believe she can take the torque that is applied by a 1 hp. motor pulling a bike that is set-up for touring. When I built my bike I had no information to go to bat on. No one on youtube or the bike forums had actually used a Rohloff, let alone the new to market NuVinci. with a center drive motor. I love the design of the NuVinci and believe they can be built to handle additional torque, but don't think they will ever match a Rohloff Speedhub for efficiency and durability.

When I chose the motor for my bike I couldn't find what I thought I wanted. U.S. made, center drive, 1 hp., pedal assist, and throttle for under $1500.00. Hub motors were out because I was looking for hill climbing ability over speed. I saw several vendors buying the BaFang 8Fun, modifying the programming, changing the paint and remarketing them for a huge profit. They all seemed to have the same goal, to get the most power out of the motor possible. I had skipped over the BaFang the 1st run through because surely the least expensive drive wouldn't be the one I wanted. After doing the research I kept coming back to the 750w BaFang. The research also showed me the best vendor to buy from and to have mount the drive. Doug Snyder at California Ebike was always at the top of my list. I had a newly purchased bike shipped to him, he mounted the drive and shipped it to me for final assembly. I immediately recognized how nice having a throttle was going to be. BaFang allows you to program their PAS or pedal assist for either 3 or 9 levels of assist. I wanted to use the minimum power assist possible to try and maximize my distance, so I set it for 9 levels. When set for PAS #1 applying the throttle gives the max level of #1 assist power. Pedaling at level #1 uses slightly less than 100% of level #1 power. I found myself bumping the throttle in between peddling to maintain a constant speed and it feels very natural. What I hadn't expected was that it would work so well with the Rohloff Speedhub, it was almost as if they were made for each other. I had bought brake levers with electric shut-off for the motor and found that they actually worked against me. With standard gears, you don't want the motor applying torque when you are changing gears. Also, when braking if you turn the crank in the slightest the motor kicks in and you jump. Bad thing when not expected. So the brake levers have cut-offs that start a multisecond delay in the motor. I hated it at intersections. I would have to wait for the power to kick back in. Being blessed in having the Rohloff drive I disconnected the shut-off in the brake levers completely. When you change gears with the Speedhub you stop peddling anyway and at intersections, I can hold the brake lever right up to the very second that I start peddling or apply the throttle. I am thinking of routing a brake lever shut-off to a button on the bars that allows me to pedal without motor assist, without having to turn the PAS to #0 or shutting the motor off. I find myself riding more and more on low and no power, carrying/towing more weight, all the time. It's all about range and hill climbing ability in touring. I wouldn't ride a bike without a throttle and yet wouldn't ride one with only a throttle either. The BaFang allows me to ride with no power assist, PAS 1-9, and/or throttle only. There are more refined PAS systems but none with as much versatility.

PatrickGSR94

This is exactly what I want. I have a regular rear derailleur and will tug the brake handle slightly when shifting to take stress off the chain. But sometimes I tug it too much and end up applying brake when I don't want to. A momentary push button would be nice.

NoPhart

Has anyone ever seen one of these Riese Muller Intercontinental full suspension touring bikes in the USA?



This bike piques my interest, but price is likely out of this world too...

chris@propel

They no longer make non-electric bikes aside from the Birdy so if you want one you'd have to buy second hand. They are quite cool though!