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Faster Mid-Drives

Old 04-07-17, 12:27 AM
  #1  
2old
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Faster Mid-Drives

Not planning this modification and don't recommend that anyone try it; apparently, Yamaha mid-drives can go 32-35 mph by changing the RPM sensor so it measures crank speed, not wheel speed. Just involves moving the sensor and magnet.
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Old 04-07-17, 11:20 AM
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I am not saying that it won't; because I haven't tried it. However, I doubt it will work well in the real world, even though it might work on a shop stand. The problem is resistance, both air and tyre.

Again, it might work; but I doubt it. This ignores the other issues such as, are the tyres up to regular high speed travel? What about the brakes? This also ignores legal issues.
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Old 04-07-17, 11:31 AM
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Same sort of things can be done to Bosch too. At Bosch class the presenter told us of doing a class at a dealer and the bike they rolled in to show service tasks was one that was modified. Owner admitted he wasnt supposed to see THAT bike. Hahaha.

-SP
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Old 04-07-17, 11:57 AM
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This mod apparently only functions briefly before the display gets an error code.

There is a widget out of Germany from bikespeed.de that works. See posting #6 https://tinyurl.com/ln35fwc
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Old 04-07-17, 12:54 PM
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Talked to a friend and bike shop owner today and his Bosch-equipped bike attained 38 mph (Garmin certified) with this modification. Although I've heard that Bosch systems get an error code and shut off after awhile with this change, his didn't.
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Old 04-08-17, 07:23 AM
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I've heard/read of this modification too. It is clearly against CA law to do it and would change a Class 1, 2 or 3 Electric Bicycle to a Motorized one; requiring all that goes with that new classification. I've also heard that it makes all the readings on the display that depend on the wheel sensor to display incorrectly. Don't know what those incorrect readings will do to the rest of the computerized system?

If someone wants a electric Moped, they really should just buy one from the start.
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Old 04-08-17, 09:38 AM
  #7  
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Originally Posted by NoPhart View Post
I've heard/read of this modification too. It is clearly against CA law to do it and would change a Class 1, 2 or 3 Electric Bicycle to a Motorized one; requiring all that goes with that new classification. I've also heard that it makes all the readings on the display that depend on the wheel sensor to display incorrectly. Don't know what those incorrect readings will do to the rest of the computerized system?

If someone wants a electric Moped, they really should just buy one from the start.
Exactly.
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Old 04-08-17, 11:57 AM
  #8  
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I've read a couple of threads on pedelecs.uk where people used microcontrollers to intercept the speed sensor and do all kinds of artful changes, such as attenuating the indicated speed above the limit in addition to just dividing it by some arbitrary number. None of them reported errors, although it's been rumored that Bosch has now installed software features that catch the obvious tampering.Too bad.

I ask if youse guys would own e-bikes if they were limited to 15.5 mph, which is the 25km/hr limit in the UK? I am in sympathy with the Brits. I would sympathize with someone who paid $3K for a Bosch mid motor who can't go as fast as my $500 BBSO2 on my beater Diamondback.

Illinois, where I live, already limits ebikes to 20 mph under pedal or throtle, but a new bill is up which attempts to harmonize with the three classes of California.

If someone modifies his bike, but otherwise rides safe and responsible with the rest of the bikes, it's not my business.
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Old 04-08-17, 12:33 PM
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BTW, there's a German site that has some kind of dingle dongle device that can be plugged into some OEM mid-drives and delimit them, while (apparently) not affecting the speedometer etc. Not interested, plus the amount of current required for those speeds could tax the battery severely and heat up the motor.
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Old 04-08-17, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by 2old View Post
BTW, there's a German site that has some kind of dingle dongle device that can be plugged into some OEM mid-drives and delimit them, while (apparently) not affecting the speedometer etc. Not interested, plus the amount of current required for those speeds could tax the battery severely and heat up the motor.
Bikespeed. I have a Bikespeed-RS on my Haibike Sduro Trekking SL: Very simple plug-and-play install; all display readings normal; power keeps coming until I spin out in top gear, which is right around the legal limit in CA. of 28mph. I'm sure it will go faster with a larger front chainring, but I'm happy with it as is. Cost from Germany with shipping was about $170, which for me is a nominal amount on top of the $2050 I paid for the bike. I'm really happy with it.
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Old 04-08-17, 02:56 PM
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Joe, thanks for the information. I've heard that it plugs into the circuitry in the area covered by the skid plate. True? Only reason that I'm not interested (NOW) is how it could affect the warranty; also, I have a pretty fast commuter.
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Old 04-08-17, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Doc_Wui View Post
...I ask if youse guys would own e-bikes if they were limited to 15.5 mph..
Yup, I really enjoy riding e-assist slowly. 15 and even 10 mph is just fine. I ride motorcycles fast and a slow bicycle ride is so much more sensory and serene. Speed is just one facet of the two-wheel experience, and in time it tends to lose its attraction.
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Old 04-08-17, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Doc_Wui View Post
I've read a couple of threads on pedelecs.uk where people used microcontrollers to intercept the speed sensor and do all kinds of artful changes, such as attenuating the indicated speed above the limit in addition to just dividing it by some arbitrary number. None of them reported errors, although it's been rumored that Bosch has now installed software features that catch the obvious tampering.Too bad.

I ask if youse guys would own e-bikes if they were limited to 15.5 mph, which is the 25km/hr limit in the UK? I am in sympathy with the Brits. I would sympathize with someone who paid $3K for a Bosch mid motor who can't go as fast as my $500 BBSO2 on my beater Diamondback.

Illinois, where I live, already limits ebikes to 20 mph under pedal or throtle, but a new bill is up which attempts to harmonize with the three classes of California.

If someone modifies his bike, but otherwise rides safe and responsible with the rest of the bikes, it's not my business.
Ha, Ha... I suspect 90% of people here on the N. American continent would NOT own an E-Bike limited to 25Km/Hr, 15.6MPH even those who do own an E-Bikes... Even E-Bikes without throttles, are/seem to be a BIG, stumbling block it would seem in my experience here talking about throttles on E-Bikes and E-Bikes going 28MPH, still considered to be "like" bicycles by people on here, and by some of the laws... Ha, Ha,

Last edited by 350htrr; 04-08-17 at 07:27 PM. Reason: spelling
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Old 04-08-17, 09:24 PM
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Originally Posted by 2old View Post
Joe, thanks for the information. I've heard that it plugs into the circuitry in the area covered by the skid plate. True? Only reason that I'm not interested (NOW) is how it could affect the warranty; also, I have a pretty fast commuter.
Yep. It's a bit of a process if you're not mechanically inclined, but anybody who knows their way around a bicycle with bike tools can do it, easy peasy.

For the Yamaha Haibike you remove 4 bottom and 2 side bolts to pull the plastic skid plate. Then loosen the 3 bolts securing the motor; remove the bottom 2; leave the upper 3rd as the hinge the motor rotates on to expose the wires stuffed in the downtube.

Now follow the instructions to clip the Bikespeed-RS in line with the wires already there, stuff it all back in the downtube, and rotate the motor back up to reinstall the 2 bolts. It's easy to pinch all those wires when moving the motor back in place, so double check that everything is cleared. Tighten bolts, plastic plate back on, you're done. Easy!
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Old 04-08-17, 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
Ha, Ha... I suspect 90% of people here on the N. American continent would NOT own an E-Bike limited to 25Km/Hr......
At this present time. Government eBike regs are imminent, though. When that happens, it would be a good bet that people here on the N. American continent will still evolve into eBikes no matter what their peak assisted speed is simply because 'easy' is always in demand.
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Old 04-09-17, 06:22 AM
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My Haibike is for commuting, and I really see no reason to want more than 20 mph out of a commuter bike. I am wondering if there will really be all that many people that want this? Plus, my battery barely makes it through my current commute and riding at high speed (although you cover more ground more quickly) drains the battery at a proportionately higher rate. So, it would not work for me.
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Old 04-09-17, 10:09 AM
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My ebike limits assist at 20 mph. However, I don't ever commute with the speed pegged at the 20 mph limit. My average speed for the commute is between 15-16 mph. Of course I have some stops and starts that figure into that calculation. There is a 1.5 mile downhill stretch where I seem to stay near the 20 mph limit... with very little pedaling. However, on the return trip, I seem to stay at about 13-15 along that same stretch which is now uphill.

It seems that with a higher available speed... I would rarely use it. There seems to be a comfort zone that I enjoy commuting, and that seems to be in the 15-16 mph range on the MUP.
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Old 04-09-17, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Kindaslow View Post
My Haibike is for commuting, and I really see no reason to want more than 20 mph out of a commuter bike. I am wondering if there will really be all that many people that want this? Plus, my battery barely makes it through my current commute and riding at high speed (although you cover more ground more quickly) drains the battery at a proportionately higher rate. So, it would not work for me.
Originally Posted by InTheRain View Post
My ebike limits assist at 20 mph. However, I don't ever commute with the speed pegged at the 20 mph limit. My average speed for the commute is between 15-16 mph. Of course I have some stops and starts that figure into that calculation. There is a 1.5 mile downhill stretch where I seem to stay near the 20 mph limit... with very little pedaling. However, on the return trip, I seem to stay at about 13-15 along that same stretch which is now uphill.

It seems that with a higher available speed... I would rarely use it. There seems to be a comfort zone that I enjoy commuting, and that seems to be in the 15-16 mph range on the MUP.
I typically use PAS 1 to 3 (75w to 450w) because any higher I wouldn't have enough battery capacity to complete my commute, and there's little to be gained as traffic, road conditions, and terrain are significant limiting factors.

The controller on my e-bike allows one to adjust wheel diameter, and top speed cutoff so that it can do 25 mph, but the battery consumption is atrocious, and probably very determental as its beyond the design parameters of the system.
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Old 04-09-17, 02:08 PM
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Originally Posted by InTheRain View Post
... It seems that with a higher available speed... I would rarely use it. There seems to be a comfort zone that I enjoy commuting, and that seems to be in the 15-16 mph range on the MUP.
That's what I found with my first eMTB, so I limited my new 750W/48V BBS02 eMTB with gearing. Just powered it up today and haven't setup the display for my build spec's yet, but I seriously doubt I will be able to hit 20mph with the 27.5 X 2.25 SA 3spd IGH and 50T X 28T belt-rings. I aimed for 18-20mph maximum under throttle (if I ever hook a throttle up). I found out on the first test ride that I clearly don't need a throttle to use as a start assist on flat ground when starting in 2nd gear or in 3rd gear when in levels 3-5 of 5. With my gearing I can easily start in my highest 3rd gear and never have to shift at all; just adjust the assist level from 3-5 of 5 for speed desired. I have yet to see if this will hold true when off-road starting on the side of a steep hill...

ADDED 4/10/17@11:06pm(PST): Well that was what my initial short test ride around my neighborhood indicated, but todays real world 40+ mile test ride was a whole different experience. Something was amiss on the initial ride. She hits 24mph in 5 of 5 and starts are MUCH better in 2nd, with a quick shift to 3rd for a 15-16mph cruising speed in only 2 of 5. 3 of 5 bumps me up to 19mph in 3rd. One horse is a lot of pulling power indeed!

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Old 04-09-17, 08:51 PM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by NoPhart View Post
That's what I found with my first eMTB, so I limited my new 750W/48V BBS02 eMTB with gearing. Just powered it up today and haven't setup the display for my build spec's yet, but I seriously doubt I will be able to hit 20mph with the 27.5 X 2.25 SA 3spd IGH and 50T X 28T belt-rings. I aimed for 18-20mph maximum under throttle (if I ever hook a throttle up). I found out on the first test ride that I clearly don't need a throttle to use as a start assist on flat ground when starting in 2nd gear or in 3rd gear when in levels 3-5 of 5. With my gearing I can easily start in my highest 3rd gear and never have to shift at all; just adjust the assist level from 3-5 of 5 for speed desired. I have yet to see if this will hold true when off-road starting on the side of a steep hill...
That style of pedaling will work, but the BBS02 really isn't designed for it. Mid-drives like rpm to keep from burning up, so I don't recommend starting in high gear. Use that shifter, bro!
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Old 04-10-17, 06:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Doc_Wui View Post
I ask if youse guys would own e-bikes if they were limited to 15.5 mph, which is the 25km/hr limit in the UK?
Yes. On my commuter the assist limit is set at about 17mph (30kph). I have never seen a reason to override it. On my touring trike I am going about 12-14 mph. So yes, I would still have an e-bike.

If someone modifies his bike, but otherwise rides safe and responsible with the rest of the bikes, it's not my business.
That is where I come from too. I just doubt the mechanics.

So far we have heard several respondents say they have heard of someone doing it; however, no first hand experience. I just don't think to motor is powerful enough to go 32-35 mph (on level ground with a normal rider). I sometimes read endless sphere, I am not there too often because they are playing a max-power game which isn't my interest. However, to get those speeds they are typically running over 1Kw.
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Old 04-10-17, 08:20 AM
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My guess is those that actually have made the modification, only did it so they wouldn't hit the "brick wall" speed limiters create. They may not be going that much over 20mph, but have eliminated the Achilles heel of speed limited eMTB's.
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Old 04-10-17, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Joe Remi View Post
That style of pedaling will work, but the BBS02 really isn't designed for it. Mid-drives like rpm to keep from burning up, so I don't recommend starting in high gear. Use that shifter, bro!
My "high gear" is 1:2.375, which is probably others low or mid gear ratio (bike specs come into play). If you have a 42T Lekkie Bling Ring, that is between a 17T and 18T at the rear and if running a 50T (like mine) it is like starting with a 21T at the rear; shouldn't be a issue at all for a BBS02 750W/48V power level setting 3-5 of 5.

ADDED 4/10/17@11:10pm(PST): Joe you are right. Something was amiss in my initial testing, possibly the voltage setting or display speed readouts. Todays real world 40+ mile ride proved it's much better to start in my 2nd 1:1 50T X 28T for a short distance, then quickly shift to my high 3rd gear which is 133% higher than 2nd. In fact, a simple short throttle burst in 2nd, then shift to 3rd and start pedaling works very well too.

I can start in my high 3rd gear, but it doesn't seem optimal now that the motor and display are functioning correctly. Thanks.

Last edited by NoPhart; 04-11-17 at 12:14 AM.
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Old 04-10-17, 10:18 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by NoPhart View Post
My "high gear" is 1:2.375, which is probably others low or mid gear ratio (bike specs come into play). If you have a 42T Lekkie Bling Ring, that is between a 17T and 18T at the rear and if running a 50T (like mine) it is like starting with a 21T at the rear; shouldn't be a issue at all for a BBS02 750W/48V power level setting 3-5 of 5.
A 2.375 gear ratio is like me starting out in my 4th lowest cog, which is 44x18. I've done it on occasion, but for me at least, it's REALLY hard to get the bike going in that gear. It's easier in my 2nd lowest gear, 44x24, but then the chain line is truly awful. I try to shift down to 3rd or 2nd if I have to stop. If I can slow but keep moving then sometimes I'll go to 4th gear.
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Old 04-10-17, 01:37 PM
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Patrick, I've discovered (FOR ME) that three speeds are sufficient, 11-17-28 with 8-speed spacing on my BBS02; the 17 is "straight" so each gear is only off by one click. When my Yamaha wears out, it'll receive the same alteration.
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