Advice needed - How to reduce the pedal force to activate a Bionx D series motor
10-24-17, 04:40 AM
#26
Senior Member
ER- I believe that the V1 fixed collar is only used on P and S series 350 watt motors. Yours is D series 500 watts. I'm not sure, you'd need to confirm with BionX but my dealer says in his catalog...
"BIONX TORQUE COLLAR PULLER FOR USE ON ALL PL AND SOME SL SERIES HUB MOTORS. FOR USE WITH FIXED COLLAR SYSTEMS." D series is not mentioned.
I believe on those motors the torque collar is pressed into a tight fit into the dropout by the axle nuts but if you make a mistake you need the puller to re-position the collar. The V3 just lifts out of the hub or is pried out with a screwdriver. When you drop the correct collar in make sure you orient the exterior shoulder to engage dropout as to place the wires close to where they now enter the motor relative to the axle notch. This will rotate a bit ( I think!) if you change the collar. Mine are at about 7 o'clock on a conventional bike relative to the axle notch. The 3 interior splines will engage in the wrong slots in the hub if you're not careful.
You may have to block one end of the bike up so the chain line is level to use the template. A shop might put the cycle into a work stand to do that.
Photos below show exterior (single shoulder) and interior (3 splines) of the V3 and my 7 o'clock wire entry.
edit: you might have the correct collar but with interior splines engaged in the wrong slots. And to clarify (edited in text above), if your hub is now oriented wrong the wire entry location may (?) rotate a little when you change the collar.
"BIONX TORQUE COLLAR PULLER FOR USE ON ALL PL AND SOME SL SERIES HUB MOTORS. FOR USE WITH FIXED COLLAR SYSTEMS." D series is not mentioned.
I believe on those motors the torque collar is pressed into a tight fit into the dropout by the axle nuts but if you make a mistake you need the puller to re-position the collar. The V3 just lifts out of the hub or is pried out with a screwdriver. When you drop the correct collar in make sure you orient the exterior shoulder to engage dropout as to place the wires close to where they now enter the motor relative to the axle notch. This will rotate a bit ( I think!) if you change the collar. Mine are at about 7 o'clock on a conventional bike relative to the axle notch. The 3 interior splines will engage in the wrong slots in the hub if you're not careful.
You may have to block one end of the bike up so the chain line is level to use the template. A shop might put the cycle into a work stand to do that.
Photos below show exterior (single shoulder) and interior (3 splines) of the V3 and my 7 o'clock wire entry.
edit: you might have the correct collar but with interior splines engaged in the wrong slots. And to clarify (edited in text above), if your hub is now oriented wrong the wire entry location may (?) rotate a little when you change the collar.
Last edited by BobG; 10-25-17 at 06:09 AM. Reason: "replace relative to frame" with "relative to axle notch"
10-25-17, 07:40 AM
#27
Senior Member
@Easyrider1-
I popped my wheel off to clarify with a better photo op what I said above. The V3 torque collar will drop into the hub at three different locations. The three splines will engage any of the three corresponding slots in the hub. BUT only one location is correct. On my bike that location is the 7 o'clock dropout shoulder position at first photo, just slightly clockwise from the notch. The other two positions are incorrect. If your notch is WAY off, double check to make sure that the interior side of your collar is installed properly. I just gripped the edges of my collar with channel lock pliers and it popped right off. After that you can just lift it off with fingers alone. A shallower torque collar will always move the dropout shoulder further from the notch. The wire entry location (more like 9-10 o'clock) will stay the same relative to the notch.
I popped my wheel off to clarify with a better photo op what I said above. The V3 torque collar will drop into the hub at three different locations. The three splines will engage any of the three corresponding slots in the hub. BUT only one location is correct. On my bike that location is the 7 o'clock dropout shoulder position at first photo, just slightly clockwise from the notch. The other two positions are incorrect. If your notch is WAY off, double check to make sure that the interior side of your collar is installed properly. I just gripped the edges of my collar with channel lock pliers and it popped right off. After that you can just lift it off with fingers alone. A shallower torque collar will always move the dropout shoulder further from the notch. The wire entry location (more like 9-10 o'clock) will stay the same relative to the notch.
Last edited by BobG; 10-25-17 at 07:46 AM.
10-26-17, 01:58 AM
#28
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: Australia
Posts: 5
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
@Easyrider1-
I popped my wheel off to clarify with a better photo op what I said above. The V3 torque collar will drop into the hub at three different locations. The three splines will engage any of the three corresponding slots in the hub. BUT only one location is correct. On my bike that location is the 7 o'clock dropout shoulder position at first photo, just slightly clockwise from the notch. The other two positions are incorrect. If your notch is WAY off, double check to make sure that the interior side of your collar is installed properly. I just gripped the edges of my collar with channel lock pliers and it popped right off. After that you can just lift it off with fingers alone. A shallower torque collar will always move the dropout shoulder further from the notch. The wire entry location (more like 9-10 o'clock) will stay the same relative to the notch.
I popped my wheel off to clarify with a better photo op what I said above. The V3 torque collar will drop into the hub at three different locations. The three splines will engage any of the three corresponding slots in the hub. BUT only one location is correct. On my bike that location is the 7 o'clock dropout shoulder position at first photo, just slightly clockwise from the notch. The other two positions are incorrect. If your notch is WAY off, double check to make sure that the interior side of your collar is installed properly. I just gripped the edges of my collar with channel lock pliers and it popped right off. After that you can just lift it off with fingers alone. A shallower torque collar will always move the dropout shoulder further from the notch. The wire entry location (more like 9-10 o'clock) will stay the same relative to the notch.
11-14-17, 01:26 PM
#29
D-tailer
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 41
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
BionX claims that the notch should be set within +/-5° of vertical. Does anybody know just what happens to the torque-sensing when the notch is outside of that envelope? Does it keep working perfectly until some angle where it stops working completely? Does it become less effective the farther from the ideal envelope it is rotated? Nobody seems to know, though my dealer is willing to make guesses. I ask because mine was installed by a BionX dealer, and it is 16° off of vertical. I'm told that this is "fine" as long as I'm getting assist. I'm having a few issues (some lumpy, inconsistent assist, as well as no assist about 24.5 mph), but clearly I have assist. And let's face it - after spending all this money and having an official dealer install the thing, I'd like to have it within the OEM specs!
11-14-17, 03:07 PM
#30
Senior Member
@darelldd-
16 degrees is indeed a long way from mfr specs. The torque collar for a D-500 motor is only $18 an does not require any special tool (an older motor version may require a puller). I suggest you print the template I posted back at post 16 and determine what angle you need to get the notch close to vertical. The template is hard to eyeball accurately. You may want to order 2 adjacent sizes and return the wrong one. You may also want to confirm your current torque collar is oriented correctly as I described above at post 27.
My dealer initially installed a 25 degree collar on my motor. It worked fine but I swapped it for a 15 degree collar to get closer yet to vertical. I assume you live in a 28 mph state. My assist cuts off at 21 mph here in NH.
V3 https://goo.gl/bo9pES
V2 https://goo.gl/C2KRbq
V1 https://goo.gl/M2sRYs
16 degrees is indeed a long way from mfr specs. The torque collar for a D-500 motor is only $18 an does not require any special tool (an older motor version may require a puller). I suggest you print the template I posted back at post 16 and determine what angle you need to get the notch close to vertical. The template is hard to eyeball accurately. You may want to order 2 adjacent sizes and return the wrong one. You may also want to confirm your current torque collar is oriented correctly as I described above at post 27.
My dealer initially installed a 25 degree collar on my motor. It worked fine but I swapped it for a 15 degree collar to get closer yet to vertical. I assume you live in a 28 mph state. My assist cuts off at 21 mph here in NH.
V3 https://goo.gl/bo9pES
V2 https://goo.gl/C2KRbq
V1 https://goo.gl/M2sRYs
11-15-17, 12:17 AM
#31
D-tailer
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 41
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Thanks for the reply, bob!
First, I should mention that my system is a P350 DV, installed two weeks ago. It also uses the modern torque collars, and not the pressed-on units of yore.
There is no question that my current collar is oriented correctly - just like yours it is the OEM 5° unit. And if you can envision your "correct" picture with the dropout being straight down (as mine is), that puts my notch pointed back by 16°.
Before I go ordering anything, I'd sure like my dealer to bring my system to within spec.
In the meantime, I have learned that the torque system does not operate beyond 300 RPM (of the rear wheel). And when I do the math for my 27.5-inch wheel, I find that surprise! 300 RPM comes at about the 24 mph where my torque sensor seems to stop working. How can the system be designed for 28 mph, yet not work beyond 24 mph on a 27.5-inch wheel?
And yes, I'm in CA where we have three types of e-bike, including type III which is 28 mph pedal assist. And that's how my BionX is currently set.
First, I should mention that my system is a P350 DV, installed two weeks ago. It also uses the modern torque collars, and not the pressed-on units of yore.
There is no question that my current collar is oriented correctly - just like yours it is the OEM 5° unit. And if you can envision your "correct" picture with the dropout being straight down (as mine is), that puts my notch pointed back by 16°.
Before I go ordering anything, I'd sure like my dealer to bring my system to within spec.
In the meantime, I have learned that the torque system does not operate beyond 300 RPM (of the rear wheel). And when I do the math for my 27.5-inch wheel, I find that surprise! 300 RPM comes at about the 24 mph where my torque sensor seems to stop working. How can the system be designed for 28 mph, yet not work beyond 24 mph on a 27.5-inch wheel?
And yes, I'm in CA where we have three types of e-bike, including type III which is 28 mph pedal assist. And that's how my BionX is currently set.
11-15-17, 06:13 AM
#32
Senior Member
Darell, Hmmm...
If your dropout is "straight down" when chain/bike is horizontal that would mean you'd need a 0 degree torque collar to place the notch plumb. The 5 degree V3 collar is the steepest one on the list and would be within the BionX spec. Your current collar must be 15 degrees (like mine) if it places the notch back that far. That's my 15 degree collar in the photos above. Discarded 25 degree collar on desk top photos above that. My dropout is somewhere between 15-20 degrees clockwise whereas you say yours is plumb. Sounds like you need to ask your dealer to swap a 15 degree collar for the 5 degree collar.
My dealer is a 5 hour round trip away and he said "close enuf" with a 25 degree collar (that's what he had in stock). Like you I wanted to make sure the installation was within specs so I ordered the correct one online and had it two days later. My assist cuts in and out seamlessly so I'm glad I made the tweak. Good luck!
If your dropout is "straight down" when chain/bike is horizontal that would mean you'd need a 0 degree torque collar to place the notch plumb. The 5 degree V3 collar is the steepest one on the list and would be within the BionX spec. Your current collar must be 15 degrees (like mine) if it places the notch back that far. That's my 15 degree collar in the photos above. Discarded 25 degree collar on desk top photos above that. My dropout is somewhere between 15-20 degrees clockwise whereas you say yours is plumb. Sounds like you need to ask your dealer to swap a 15 degree collar for the 5 degree collar.
My dealer is a 5 hour round trip away and he said "close enuf" with a 25 degree collar (that's what he had in stock). Like you I wanted to make sure the installation was within specs so I ordered the correct one online and had it two days later. My assist cuts in and out seamlessly so I'm glad I made the tweak. Good luck!
Last edited by BobG; 11-15-17 at 07:16 AM.
11-15-17, 11:23 AM
#33
D-tailer
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 41
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
OK, it is clearly time to get my hands more dirty. My information comes from the dealer re. the 5° collar being the OEM on all delivered bikes. Are you saying that your system came with a 15° collar?
As I've mentioned, the bike and system are both new to me, so at this point I've relied heavily on what the dealer has told me. All I've done is accurately measure the angle of my notch as it was delivered. I know that the dealer changed nothing relative to how the wheel was delivered to them. I'll go take the wheel off now and confirm what I've got (just which collar it is, and the angle of my dropout.
I'm curious what you think about this 300 RPM limit (that doesn't affect folks who are limited to 20 mph)? I have wanted to increase my chainring size for high-speed riding, but I'd only need to do that if the bike were assisted beyond 24 mph... which it is not.
As I've mentioned, the bike and system are both new to me, so at this point I've relied heavily on what the dealer has told me. All I've done is accurately measure the angle of my notch as it was delivered. I know that the dealer changed nothing relative to how the wheel was delivered to them. I'll go take the wheel off now and confirm what I've got (just which collar it is, and the angle of my dropout.
I'm curious what you think about this 300 RPM limit (that doesn't affect folks who are limited to 20 mph)? I have wanted to increase my chainring size for high-speed riding, but I'd only need to do that if the bike were assisted beyond 24 mph... which it is not.
11-15-17, 01:22 PM
#34
D-tailer
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 41
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Hi Bob... and anybody else who wishes to discuss the notch orientation of the BionX system - I started a new thread here, because of course, I'm off-topic on this one!
https://www.bikeforums.net/electric-...l#post19995173
https://www.bikeforums.net/electric-...l#post19995173
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
NoPhart
Electric Bikes
29
04-27-16 07:42 AM
