accrobrandon

Hi, new here

Im gonna get to it cuz Im trying to get this figured out. So i converted a walmart MTB..

got a Pinty 500w front hub 26" off amazon,
and using (4) 10s2p batteries in parallel to make an 8P with about 10amp output each continuous. Got these on ebay from "alarmhookup" if youre familiar with his discount packs of the LG batteries

I built this bike for courier/delivery work in NYC and average 20-40 miles per day jetting around. (I wish for more range)
I started doing work a few weeks ago and have been putting the bike through its paces and wouldnt say I ride it "hard" but not soft n casual as this a business bike.

After a few weeks of work the throttle started cutting out one day. I had power, and Id throttle and nada... or it would start... cut out...then kick back in with out me ever bringing it back to zero... eventually it died. I wrote the company and they sent me a whole new kit.

NOT LESS THAN A WEEK later the issue starts again, new throttle. So i limp back to my storage unit where i keep the bike and swap in a new controller just to eliminate one option (not the controller)

I found this crafty article about testing throttles on ebike. ca (cant post links as a newbie)

if these numbers are right, what i was getting at "rest" was about 1.5v and at full it was 2.5.
Low on the high side, but on the low side wouldnt that mean that the motor would get some signal right off the bat and jump without me giving anything?

At any rate what other issues could there be or are these just crappy throttles??

Another issue, and maybe i should start another thread, but I feel like the range is crap. 4.4ah per battery at an 8p I was hoping for 30mi per charge but im im barely getting over 20mi, maybe 25mi before the first throttle crapped out. Im feeling like there has to be a power leak some where or just these cells capacity is diminshing by the minute.

thoughts and ideas?? TIA

Doc_Wui

When does the bike die? Does it happen with freshly charged batteries or maybe after 10-12 miles when you have used up half the range? Does it stay dead or does it recover for a little more riding? If it recovers, can you feather the throttle and go on for a while? Do you have any voltage indicators on that bike? What I am trying to do here is make sure it's not a voltage sag problem from weak batteries as opposed to a real throttle failure problem.

Your motor kit has no pedal assist, right? It's all throttle. Do you know your cruising speed?

I have some experience with those same batteries. I run them separately on a little 36V motor. Put two in parallel for my 500W motor. They're about 4AH each when pulling 200 watts. I've seen them put put 20A peak per pack, but that will probably kill them. When I run them in parallel, I recharge in parallel too.

The cells in the packs are not crap, but they aren't really strong. I took two apart and made a 13S-2P (48V) battery with a good BMS, and found that when it got down to 46 volts, it would shut off from voltage sag. End of that experiment. It was 75 degrees that day too, How cold is it in NYC this week? 45F? That will kill range too.

I'm thinking battery because two controllers and two throttles did the same thing. I do agree that 2.4V is low. Should be over 4 volts. You're getting 4.3 volts on the supply wire?

accrobrandon

yes, earlier i was testing will the full system plugged and 36v batteries... i brought the 1st throttle home for tests and used 3 AA in series to test it and go those results...


so how would we test this theory?

I ordered a new throttle off amazon earlier and expecting that to remedy the issue...for now...

accrobrandon

i know what sag feels like, as I get a good taste when riding my eboard and it cuts out running at full throttle on a slight incline or hitting some road variation that challenges it...this is different, like a power loss...on/off switch...like wtf did my power go..

life was good the first couple weeks... 3ish hrs of non-stop delivery time with the bike being kinda sluggish as the battery capacity got lower (naturally) but this is like ... full battery and good ride for a few miles/ few deliveries and then bam...

Doc_Wui

Next time it happens, lift the wheel off the ground and see if the wheel spins at full speed. That would rule out the throttle. .

Nelson37

First, you can have an exceptionally high degree of confidence that the numbers and testing methodology you got from ebikes.ca are accurate. That site and its owner is a prime source of good info.

Second, I am unclear about your tested voltage numbers. Need results from TWO throttles, also TWO controllers, AND the numbers from using the AA batteries.

Throttles are pretty simple, only similar issue I have ever had was when it got some moisture inside. Any possibility this has happened? I cover mine with strips of plastic from grocery bags.

IMO you either have received two, separate, defective throttles, OR, what I think is more likely, you have gotten two defective controllers. Power to the throttle is supplied by the controller. Your external power results seem to indicate throttle is functioning correctly, but need clarification.

accrobrandon

nah no go with no load on the tire... when i got to the bike yesterday i got one crank and the throttle fired for a sec then cut out, any further attempts (with wheel off ground) produced nothing.

accrobrandon

..

accrobrandon

....and this thumb throttle i order from amazon the other day just arrived...

tested real quick and gave me the exact numbers we are hoping for..

4.7v input from 3 AA... .9v at rest and 3.85 at max

Doc_Wui

So does it run now?

accrobrandon

Wont know for a bit...heading out of town today but.will report back once I get back to the bike.

speedy25

Brandon- I have a tester for throttles if you want to send me the ones you think are dead for a second opinion.

PM for more.

-SP

accrobrandon

I will keep.this in mind of this new thumb throttle dies in yhe coming weeks.

But on that note... The new throttle seems to be working well and as expected... Although I feel like my thumb is going to die holding in accelerate position for long periods =p

Before I pulled the old throttle off I gave it one last chance with power... It lit up as expected but no signal to motor upon twisting. I didnt.bring it.home for testing but can later in the week.

accrobrandon

I was gonna post today about how excited I was the thumb throttle was working great (aside from killing my thumb)

and then... last night.. a couple orders away from hitting my bonus... it went on the fritz. I will test tomorrow when i get back to the city BUT it was fine when I parked the bike to drop off the order and when I came out it was like no power at all.

I opened up the box where I keep everything and all looked fine and there was still 20% on the battery. After 5min of tinkering it starting working but was cutting in and out until i got it back to the storage unit =/

On a side note and not sure if its related I did notice the blue phase wire is about to finish melting again where it connects. If anyone has ideas about this lemme know. When I installed the hub all wires connected via bullet, but the blue one ripped out of the bullet so I re crimped on square insulated disconnecting connectors. Standard ones from home depot, but this is the second time now where this specific wire had fritzed out. The first time it melted down at the connect it was fairly charred. Not sure if its a fire hazard but questionable since this is the second time.

Nelson37

When you say the battery was at 20%, based on what instrumentation, what exactly was the reading, and has the battery been consistently low when the problem has occurred?

Now, about those melted phase wires, are there ANY OTHER SERIOUS PROBLEMS, not ones that you think may or may not be important, but ANYTHING AT ALL that you have failed to mention on your bike, that is in any way unusual or different.

Yes, melted phase wires could cause both your throttle problem and your range issue.

Yes, a battery depleted dangerously low could cause a system shutdown.

Yes, 20% battery level, especially depending on instrumentation used and type and quality of battery, can be dangerously depleted. In any case is not good operational procedure for optimum battery lifetime.

The most common reason for diagnostic failures is information that the actual user FAILS TO SUPPLY.

Previous throttles apparently contained a battery level meter? This is something to avoid. Describe the current throttle in this regard.

accrobrandon

same as all the rest, but i can even see it anyways as I have winter handle bar covers on the bike

I will start with replacing the blue phase connection, again, tomorrow and then test throttle voltage once again.. but if theres any recommendations as to a better connector that can handle the heat/current im all ears

Nelson37

Not sure where to start.

The controller MUST be exposed to cooling airflow. IT SHOULD NOT be enclosed in a box. This should be changed IMMEDIATELY.

Some controllers do have an overheat shutoff, some do not. Some react to a sensor in the motor itself, some to heat in the controller. Knowing the brand-name of the motor, or any markings on it, might be useful. I have never heard any mention ever of a "Pinty" brand name.

Is the motor sensored, or sensorless? Direct drive, or geared? This information might be useful.

The range could seem a bit low, but further evaluation would be dependent on load factors, such as speeds achieved in use, which is unknown, total weight of rider and cargo, also unknown, hills, both steepness and length, also unknown, and number of starts and stops, also unknown.

Melted phase wires are a serious problem which should have been described in detail in your very first post. Likely to be internal damage inside the motor, it should be opened and examined carefully. Re-assembly can be dangerous, especially if the motor is direct-drive, which is unknown. Seek out and watch the "CLANG" video on motor dis-assembly.

At ebikes.ca there is a test for correct phase and hall sensor connection order. Color coding is NOT repeat NOT a reliable indicator of correct installation. Improper order will cause overheating of phase wires, and also lower than expected range and performance. RUN THIS TEST, note the caution about MINIMAL throttle engagement.

It is a near certainty that the throttle itself is not the problem. Overheating controller, internally shorted phase wires, or incorrect phase or hall sensor order would be best guess at this point.

I am going to ask a question based on decades of experience in doing online diagnostics in another field. " At any time, have you witnessed smoke, sparks, and possibly actual flame erupting from any part of the assembly?"

MORE INFORMATION is needed to solve YOUR problem, and YOU are the only one who has it.

accrobrandon

if theres still info missing then let me know

Nelson37

Making progress, but still not there yet.

I asked you questions about weight and load, stops, and hills. Add to that acceleration from a dead stop and amount of pedaling. I do not ask these questions out of idle curiosity. I ask them because the answers are necessary to proceed in solving your problem.

That motor is a fairly high-speed, direct drive motor. Verify that cruise speed is 15 mph, what is maximum speed?

Knowing what motor you have, plus the melted phase wires, TWICE, the slow speed, point to a problem but the un-ventilated controller adds a possible completely different issue.

Get the bike in a working state. Temporarily disconnect installed throttle and connect old throttle, test. Rare for a fault to "kill" a throttle, but they are often defective. Symptoms seem consistent.

Overheated controller often flaky. Random shutdowns common. Sometimes they are OK when cooled down, sometimes not. Easy fix, no harm, controller can freeze no problem.

A motor that melts phase wires almost always either has an internal short, an incorrect phase or hall sequence or possibly a bad connection on one wire or a broken wire or solder joint, OR, very, very often, is running too slow with too high a load, causing high draw on the battery, which with weak cells can cause huge sag to shutdown either thru controller or battery LVC. BTW, the "BMS" on those batteries is minimal, at best.

Also, once you have melted phase wires on the OUTSIDE, the odds of having melted wires on the INSIDE go up dramatically.

Try driving the motor like a car stuck in high gear. No throttle from stop, pedal only, pedal hard, also on hills and while accelerating. If you are heavy drop 50 lbs. Check the motor cover by hand for heat.

I should clarify that there is no thermal shutdown in the motor unless there is a temp sensor AND the controller is programmed for it. Not likely with that kit. Most controllers do have an internal thermal shutdown. Also, shorted phase wires, and incorrect sequence, can permanently damage controllers.

Describe in some detail the EXACT sequence of events that takes you from a bike that DOES NOT work, to when it does. Wait 20 minutes, charge, jiggle wires, dance the hokey-pokey, turn off at display, or at controller, or disconnect battery mains? These should all be tested, particularly controller and battery off, but even the hokey-pokey, as well.

Never discount evil gremlins or the off-chance that it really IS what it's all about.

accrobrandon

well lets see, the bike is a cheap walmart bike around 40lbs and Im about 140... add a tool box and batteries a front basket and rear rack and maybe were at another 20lbs in parts. far from the max rider weight they advertise.

If you read previous posts I mention i ride the bike med hard.. that doesnt mean Im flooring it all the time when i ride nor from a dead start..i pedal assist the motor cuz i like my legs moving.. Im in manhattan...fairly flat minimal hills.. not to hard not to light...i want the batteries to last me.. maybe my expectations were high in range possibly... i mean how much range should i expect from a 16ah battery? I get at least 18mi before it starts to get to a point where I start heading back to base... and averages about 15-20ish mph but i probably ride around 15mph.

Today i went back to check things out and the throttle was getting no juice. I replaced the charred blue phase wire and nothing happened. I swapped in this 2nd controller I got (same seller, same kit... they sent me whole new kit when I mentioned the first throttle died) nothing worked.

Now if you ask me in the sequence of power i feel like theres an issue right now getting power from controller to throttle. Right... Battery goes to controller... 36v runs through the on/off switch back into the controller and then that distributes it to hub based on throttle value. AND also 5v should run up to the throttle for signal

Well right now it wouldnt even light up...like it wasnt getting power from the controller.. i couldnt even test the throttle on the bike for signal value because it wasnt powered. So i brought it home and powered it again with 3 AA batteries... i got .8v at rest and 4.2v at WOT

only one wire has melted...and only at the disconnect joint... obviously can neither confirm nor deny anything internally in controller or hub

sequence started standard...unbox hub..install all parts, plug together and ride... was fine for a few weeks..

first throttle died... similar event...started cutting out i assumed it was throttle.. died in a day... very quick... twisting and letting throw rip it back to zero made it come back...then no juice...

i test throttle per ebike.ca and incorrect values as per previous posts... new throttle/kit arrives... i install new throttle, plug in battery and off we go... 1 week later cutting out... i check wires to make sure all is good...nothing noticeable...
a day later even more cutting out in short stretches and so i head back to the unit as the throttle dies...this time the on/off switch works and built in battery meter still shows lights n colors

3rd throttle comes in... i install, nothing noticeable about other wiring or phase connection... and off we go.. as per post it acted up... one minute perfectly fine...i park the bike to drop off the food and I come out 2 min later to take off and no throttle response...like wtf... i jump off...open up the box..nothing smells weird, nothing looks weird... disconnect battery to get more access to wires and free space... check throttle cable to see if it loose and nothing bad... plug everything back together...still nothing for a few minutes... then all of a sudden it starts to kick back on... after this I try to finish my last couple orders... running only half throttle... somtimes cuts out at 1/2... sometimes right off the line it was an issue... nothing consistent that lead me to believe it might be heavy load from a stand stlll, or uphill (which there really arent hills in NYC) barely inclines..

my bike stays in a storage locker everyday.. i remove the battery and charge at home daily.

accrobrandon

..update.. so i loosely connected a battery to controller and throttle to controller on the kitchen table.. to see if i could further diagnose anything... good/bad news... it appears theres a short in the throttle wiring about a foot down... as i held the throttle the lights were flickering on and off.. if i squeeze and bend the line it makes it go on and off... so that seems to be that issue... for now...

next would be solving the blue phase wire issue

Nelson37

First, test all three throttles in the same way. Chinese quality control is horrific.

Second, get that controller into cooling airflow.

Need accurate measurement of top speed with freshly charged battery. "20-ISH" is not good enough. 18mph, 20mph, 22 mph. Need precision here. Two of those numbers indicate a serious problem.

Do you have a speedometer installed?

That motor will pull a lot of amps. It will pull more amps when accelerating from a dead stop. It will pull more amps if the phase wire connection is out of sequence. High amps can melt phase wires, also cause transitory sag triggering low voltage cutoff on a weak battery like yours. High amps will also overheat a controller.

Does your meter show amps or watts?

That motor with that battery should not be engaged from a dead stop. Pedal only to at least 3-5 mph.

Find the phase wire test at ebikes.ca. It is in the troubleshooting section. There should be two, separate tests, one for a shorted phase wire and a different one for correct sequence. Run both. Carefully.

Both of these errors are quite common. Incorrect sequence is extremely common and often difficult to detect. Lowered range and lowered top speed are two primary indicators, as is melted phase wires, particularly twice.

Preferred connector is XT60 or Anderson. Installed bullets will NOT survive a high number of disconnection cycles.

The motor type itself is quite reliable. However, IMO you bought the wrong kit for the type of riding and particularly the battery you are pairing it with. Either a slower wind motor, a small geared hub, or a stronger battery, in either amps or c-rate.

accrobrandon

i havent done a top speed test because finding a nice long stretch without a red light in manhattan is hard to come by, but i use an app to track my distance and speed.. since its cold i usually keep the phone in my chest pocket, but whenits decent i had it in a cradle on the handle bar... it was reading 18-20mph the time i was paying attention

havent felt any sag, ever, and can only assume the phase wires were in the correct order since it was sold as a kit from the seller, sure they could have pieced it all together and maybe a color is switched but that wouldnt be a mistake on my end as everything was plug n play.

my meter just reads battery voltage

there is no pdf in ebikes for shorted phase wires.. just mosfet testing and pinout guide for something else unrelated..then hall sensor and throttle guides... 7 total, nothing for shorted phase wires

the battery is xt60, like most, and is the only thing that gets unplugged regularly

im not seeing how these batteries cant deliver enough continuous amps at 4 in paralell is 40 available, not even knowing what the controllers actual max/continuous draw is... but that aside I just got a new 5p the other day at 50amps continuous and currently in the process of building a 6p with 30q cells and a vruzend kit... even the BMS they sell (which i got) was rated at 35amp so all in all the power numbers should be there.

Nelson37

You got four, 4.4Ah alarmhookup packs in series, right? Reports indicate the Ah rating is "optimistic", and the c rate minimal. Not a lot of continuous amps available there, and definitely not 40a continuous, or even short-term burst. They will likely not live long. Months rather than years.

I stated early on that color coding for phase sequence is not reliable. That is because NUMEROUS reports and problems, many having an absolutely remarkable resemblance to some of your issues, show absolutely and without question that color coding is not reliable, even among upper-end kits, which yours is not.

The reason I asked you to test ALL your throttles was to determine whether multiple throttles were actually defective, or just one. This is in order to eliminate the throttle as the primary cause of the problem, or even a symptom. I think your system is shutting down, plus one truly defective throttle.

I think the shutdown is either thermal in the controller, or massive wattage draw is causing a very short-term sag in the battery, and triggering an LVC shutdown, either within the battery or the controller.

Melted phase wires have only a few causes. If it ain't hills, or load, then low speed, at 10 mph you got a couple minutes to overheat, then phase sequence is a primary and common cause. If the top speed is less than the approx 22 mph the data suggests, then it becomes #1 probability. A dead short in the wiring, maybe, either internal or external to the motor.

There's a couple diagrams on how to check this, basically 36 possible combinations but you only need to try 6 or so, most won't work at all, some will run backwards, some will function but there will be loss of power and overheating, only one is correct.

If it is your opinion that the Chinese quality control on the color coding eliminates the possibility of this error, particularly with the available evidence and symptoms, IMO you are greatly mistaken.

accrobrandon

i didnt watch every review possible on the ebay packs but the guy who did like the hr review and capacity tested em rated capacity closer to 4ah... there werent results for amp discharge.. thats moot now since this new battery I have and the 30q im building..

u can watch this is you want its a vid from when i built the bike, and u can tell me if the hub sounds noisy from plug and play install

4:30 mark for first test

i guess i could play with different phase color combos and see what happens when i get there tomorrow...

i tested throttle 2 again today.. no signal on AA batteries and couldnt even get continuity through the switch so im going to assume its a POS as well... #3 def was a short in the wiring sleeve... and new throttle will arrive tomorrow for friday install

also this hub is the 500w which based on their spec sheet is rated at 17-19mph max, maybe the 1000w was higher

Im not saying the chinese got it perfectly right...or wrong.. im just saying as someone new to ebikes that plug n play worked off the bat with no odd sounding sounds nor any bad reviews on amazon for this hub from this seller specific relevant to my condition. I mean i would love some easy multimeter test for phase wires that would give direct results