Elbeinlaw

I agree, they shouldn't be. But whether it's Silver Comet, or Decatur/Stone Mountain Trail, or the Houston Bayou trails: they are, and they ride like ayholes. Sorry to indict a whole class, but my experience is that they're selfish, insensitive jerks who do not know where their brakes are.

Elbeinlaw

The hell they don't. Either with nobody behind the wheel or "driverless."

Elbeinlaw

I have an e-bike, one of the first or second generation ones. I ended up hating it and quickly graduating to a road bike and the e-bike ended up in storage for a decade. I never found its power overwhelming or surprising. But this thing weighed as much as a tank, and of course it was an old, underpowered motor. Never fell on the e-bike. On the road and hybrids, though ... shall I enumerate the lacerations, stitches, bouts of cellulitis that eventually forced me to do something radical about my cycling vehicle?

Now, e-bikes are in. When I'm old enough to need one, I will not hesitate about it.

linberl

You know, someone's always going to complain. When I ride without my motor (easily removed from bike) for exercise, I get passed WAAAY too close by guys in lycra going 20-26mph trying to beat Strava records. And they don't even have the courtesy to call out. One of these days I'm going to move left to avoid a bump on my little 16" tires on my Bike Friday and there's gonna be an accident. Ayholes, indeed. Has nothing to do with motors. It's not the motor that makes you an "ayhole" - it's the attitude and ayholes will be ayholes whether they're on fast roadie bikes, e-bikes, or driving a car. The bike is a tool and so are they.

2old

The "bike" in question, with 20 HP, has as much in common with an ebike as a 10,000 HP nitro-fueled drag race car has with a Toyota Corolla. Anyone who uses this example to condemn ebikes is exaggerating to the maximum degree possible. This thread doesn't belong in the e-bike forum which focuses on legal systems used responsibly. I'm reporting to the one Moderator who I know thinks clearly.

linberl

Thank you. Unfortunately, this "headline" on various news sites has probably confirmed anti-ebike bias for many. They won't let facts get in the way.

2old

Yeah! The know-nothings are having a feast. Putting pedals on a 20 HP, 80 mph motorcycle is like adding the spring motor from a toy car on a jumbo jet (probably you can think of a better analogy). I sent Siu Blue Wind, who has always represented integrity, a note saying the thread doesn't belong here or in any "bicycling" forum.

BoraxKid

Okay, thanks for confirming!

livedarklions

Ok, thanks for confirming.

unterhausen

Other than a few problematic posts in this thread, I think anyone involved with ebikes is going to have to live with this story for a while so it's not a horrible thread to have.

I changed the title. As I understand it, there are gas powered motorcycles with less power than this bike. Even though it does have pedals, it really is an electric motorcycle.

livedarklions

Unfortunately, I think this is just the beginning of a long battle with people unable to appreciate differences in classifications. I don't have problems with people riding ebikes on MUPs, but when I complained on BF about seeing someone ride a powered cargo bike 20+ MPH on the Minuteman with several hundred pounds of cargo and bike, I got accused of all sorts of anti-ebike bias. That's edging close to letting small cars on the path and really has nothing to do with the kind of responsible use you're talking about.

Elbeinlaw

[QUOTE=BoraxKid;21635276]Is this some sad Boomer reference I'm too Z to understand? Literally WTF did you mean [quote]
Was this supposed to be personally offensive or was it just an accident?

Elbeinlaw

You young puppies do know what classics are, right? "Breaking Away" was a classic in its day, during the first great modern cycling revival that brought you the entire cycling world that you enjoy today.

The movie plays with the friction between the petit bourgeoisie cycling crowd that was then buying expensive bikes and starting to pay attention to the Tour, vs the small town blue collar world in America that was then disappearing and knew it. As a cultural comment it's quite incisive; as a socio-economic expose it's brilliant; as a character study it's pretty damn good.

Sorry you missed the significance. There's this thing called the internet where you can look stuff up to try to appear intelligent ...

2old

I don't blame you for being pissed in that situation, and good chance the bike wasn't a legally defined ebike. I've had life-threatening situations with individuals bombing down hills (pre-ebike) toward me and totally out of control. Three or so times I dived off my bike in order to prevent a head on collision. In those cases it's not the bike, but the rider IMO.

livedarklions

No question any vehicle can be operated recklessly. My point in the cargo ebike story, which I really got attacked for, was that heavy powered vehicles really can't be operated safely on a path at speed. I don't think that's remotely true of what you're calling "legal" ebikes. Yes, some people can abuse them, but in normal use, they're just fine.

linberl

I pull 40lbs of dog food and Costco stuff behind me on my bike with the motor attached (only way I can pull that load up the hills) but I do not go 20mph or anywhere near that with a load. So - again - it's not the amount of cargo or the speed capacity of the bike, it's the common sense or lack thereof of the rider. I'd be very reluctant to pull that while riding in the streets here so I stick to the MUPS. But I'm a considerate rider regardless of load or speed. The person you saw that day was not. Not his equipment's fault.

livedarklions

Yeah, no, we're not going to agree. I was able to find his cargo bike online, and it listed a weight of 75 pounds unloaded. Figuring that the rider weighed about 180 pounds, and he looked to be carrying at least 125 pounds of cargo, that's a gross vehicle weight of 400 pounds. Online, it claimed a capacity of 300 pounds plus rider, so could be up to 600 pounds. Powered vehicles like that are not bike-path compatible.

Darth Lefty 

Legal where, responsible to who? Where is this bike illegal? He was in his driveway, and since he's a pretty flashy guy, it's probably a pretty long driveway.

linberl

Well, yeah, that is a lot. My bike with motor and battery is 23.5lb and I'm not big so bike+me is just over 150lb. With my costco load I hit maybe 200lbs. There are plenty guys out there riding that weigh more than that by themselves. But I do have to ask - how do you feel about really heavy folks riding, then? There's a guy I see who started out riding at what had to be a minimum of 350lbs, and he probably had a pretty heavy bike to handle his weight. Would you think he should also stay off the pathways? Or is the issue the cargo load and the way it's carried?

livedarklions

I once weighed 320 pounds and tried riding under my own power for a few weeks. I couldn't work up enough speed to be a real threat to anyone even at that weight.

This is a question of regulations. Reckless 350 pound riders are unusual enough that I don't think they pose a serious threat to MUP safety. Powered cargo bikes, however can be mass produced, and urban MUPs could turn into routes dominated by commercial hauling if they get a loophole like that. Once you open the gates to vehicles with capacity to deliver relatively large loads, the ability to skip traffic jams, avoid parking issues, and skip traffic lights can be economically irresistible.

You can make your same argument for tandem bikes, but again, not enough of them to worry about.

linberl

So what sort of restrictions are you suggesting? Cargo weight limits? Mass limits? I've absolutely no problem with powered cargo bikes that families use to move their kids around - it's one less car on the road. Would they still be okay? What about my trailer with my load from Costco? I sold my car because I was able to use a trailer and motor to do everything I needed - again, one less car on the road.
In the long term, I think the solution is more about creating more and better bicycling infrastructure rather than restriction. We should encourage every type of riding that eliminates a car on the road. In my dreams, I'd love to see "fast & slow" side by side bike paths so folks with little kids and those who want to pootle and look around have a safe place to ride separated from those who use bikes as transportation or fast exercise.

trailangel

Big Toys For Big Boys
OR
The Reason British Are Limited To 15 MPH Ebikes

This is really an Emotorcycle in disguise. Only reason it has pedals is to call it an Ebike... but it's illegal except on private property.
Probably couldn't even register it for street use because no brake light or horn.
Crank so small it looks like you should take it off and put footpegs on instead.
Should've purchase a Zero electric motorcycle instead.

I would have been really tempted to walk up to the guy and tell him
"You've got no talent or skill for riding bikes. What Was That? Didn't move me in the slightest bit."

livedarklions

At some weight/power point, that one less car on the road becomes, in essence, one more car on the bike path. In my eyes, that's a really bad trade. To avoid that, lines about who can use paths have to be drawn. I'm going to decline your invitation to haggle over exactly where those lines should be.

And as John Maynard Keynes said, "in the long run, we shall all be dead." Ebike technology is changing much faster than bike infrastructure so we don't really have the luxury of waiting until your new fantasy paths become reality to figure this out.

You have to be really careful about leaving loopholes that people can design vehicles to exploit. For example, the reason you're seeing Amazon use those relatively small cargo vans for their deliveries is because they're exactly as big as they can be and remain exempt from federal regulation. The consequence is that there's a lot more delivery vehicles on the road than there would be if they used larger vehicles.

And we can have this to look forward to in "our" infrastructure: https://www.wired.com/story/food-del...are-bike-lane/

2old

Socal seems to have a viable system Class 1 & 2 (20 mph max) are allowed on bike paths. e-bikes are prohibited on several heavier-traveled paths that I've ridden. Caveat: I don't get to the beach areas or other places where there may be many individuals, so don't know the rules there. As already stated, it distills down to the operator.

linberl

Ok, I get it.. You like to complain but haven't any solutions. Peace out.