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Powersports and Ebikes

Old 11-19-20, 12:43 PM
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Powersports and Ebikes

Now that Yamaha, Serial 1 and various automaker have gotten into Ebikes. The bicycle industry may be outmarketed and lose control of ebikes industry because of the lack of resources. What are your thoughts on how this may change the bicycle industry? My friend told me that powersports dealers are given priority for product over bicycle shops. Ebikes are in the space where mopeds are separated by scooters.The industry just keeps expanding. https://www.motorcycle.com/mini-feat...le-models.html
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Old 11-19-20, 12:55 PM
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This is a failing American icon of a business (Harley Davidson) trying to desperately stay afloat. Not a threat to the bicycle industry...for now anyway. The majority of bikes sold in America are well under these price ranges. It's been a while since I looked at sales and such so we'll see how this goes but I'm guessing Aventon is not too worried about this one.

And what does your friend mean by this?

"My friend told me that powersports dealers are given priority for product over bicycle shops"

Meaning Yamaha will get resources before Trek, Specialized, or Rad Power? What "resources"? I'm guessing that these new to the e-bike players are not getting some special logistical and supply chain priority over the established brands. They need to overcome their current "branding" first and that will be difficult I believe.

The top selling ebike companies now all have bikes well under the price of the HD offering. The margins might be higher on the costlier bikes but retailers sell WAY more inexpensive bikes. I don't see a huge market for this bike in particular.

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Old 11-19-20, 12:59 PM
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moved here from General cycling.
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Old 11-19-20, 02:55 PM
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Well that Harley is disappointing. Thought they might put a real motor in it, not yet another underpowered euro spec motor. The CVT is interesting however. Not sure how they made it weigh 59 pounds.

Having said that I don't think the bike industry has much to worry about from power sport manufactures. What the bike industry REALLY needs to worry about is the Chinese aftermarket kits. Big named factory bikes all seem to be overprice dogs in comparison to what one can build from a kit. Having the ability to reprogram is a huge bonus as well.
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Old 11-19-20, 05:29 PM
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“eBikes” are mopeds. Electric mopeds, but mopeds just the same. Yamaha has nearly a century of uninterrupted experience designing exceptional quality (reliability and safety) into mopeds.

If I were in the market for an electric moped I’d trust no company other than Yamaha. Not some random company on Amazon. Not Specialized, Haro, or Trek.

Yamaha.

If I had a loved one who was interested in a two wheeled machine which would take them to speeds double to triple what their legs have ever taken them to (many have never biked over 8 mph)... YAMAHA!

Harley has as much business dipping into eMopeds as they do doing motocross bikes or sport bikes (they should’ve hung onto Buell.). The least bad thing they could be doing for having eBikes in their shops is rebranding Yamahas and painting them black and orange. But- their mechanics are going to be having to buy metric tools.

I love my LBS, but they are out of their element dealing with everything that comes with eMopeds, in particular- having to sell half-baked jalopies from companies with less than a decade of development.

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Old 11-19-20, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by aplcr0331 View Post
This is a failing American icon of a business (Harley Davidson) trying to desperately stay afloat. Not a threat to the bicycle industry...for now anyway. The majority of bikes sold in America are well under these price ranges. It's been a while since I looked at sales and such so we'll see how this goes but I'm guessing Aventon is not too worried about this one.

And what does your friend mean by this?

"My friend told me that powersports dealers are given priority for product over bicycle shops"

Meaning Yamaha will get resources before Trek, Specialized, or Rad Power? What "resources"? I'm guessing that these new to the e-bike players are not getting some special logistical and supply chain priority over the established brands. They need to overcome their current "branding" first and that will be difficult I believe.

The top selling ebike companies now all have bikes well under the price of the HD offering. The margins might be higher on the costlier bikes but retailers sell WAY more inexpensive bikes. I don't see a huge market for this bike in particular.
My friend said that Powersports dealers are getting ebikes before bicycle shops.
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Old 11-20-20, 01:13 AM
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In my state an e-bike is not a moped. e-bikes have pedals, most (mopeds) do not. An e-bike can go on the MUP’s a moped cannot (even an electric moped). There’s probably not much crossover between the two market segments. People on e-bikes still consider themselves cyclist. Moped guys and gals do not.

And here’s a definition from your government;

At the federal level, a 2002 law enacted by Congress, HB 727, amended the Consumer Product Safety Commission definition of e-bikes. The law defined a low-speed electric bicycle as “A two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor of less than 750 watts (1 h.p.), whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph.” The federal law permits e-bikes to be powered by the motor alone (a “throttle-assist” e-bike), or by a combination of motor and human power (a “pedal-assist” e-bike).

Significantly, federal law only specifies the maximum speed that the e-bike can travel under motor power alone. It does not provide a maximum speed when the bicycle is being propelled by a combination of human and motor power, which is how e-bikes are predominantly ridden. The Consumer Product Safety Commission has clarified that the federal law does allow e-bikes to travel faster than 20 mph when using a combination of human and motor power.

This law distinguishes, at the federal level, e-bikes that can travel 20 mph or less under motor power alone from motorcycles, mopeds and motor vehicles. Devices that meet the federal definition of an electric bicycle are regulated by the Consumer Product Safety Commission and must meet bicycle safety standards. However, as a 2014 e-bike law primer notes, this federal law only applies to the e-bike’s product standards and safety.

https://www.ncsl.org/research/transp...ve-primer.aspx

So, no an e-bike is not a moped.
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Old 11-20-20, 12:07 PM
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Yamaha is one of the major manufacturers of eBike motors.
I've spent some time contemplating it, and it really boils down that there a two main types of ebikes.

1) Electrically assisted bicycles. These are designed to be primarily pedaled in an efficient manner.
2) Pedal assisted mopeds. These are primarily throttle driven, and the pedals are more for regulatory compliance. Look at the number of ebikes that have only one or two frame sizes and fixed seats.

For Class 1/2 ebikes (<20mph) the bicycle manufacturers have an advantage. Normal bicycle components are fine, and the overall weight is a primary concern.
Class 3 (<28mph) is a middle ground, where it depends on use case.
For speeds above >28mph, that really is a moped, and you need beefier components like you might find on a moped or downhill bike. Here's where the powersports manufacturers really have an advantage.

My converted ebike has a top speed of about 35 mph. But above 20 mph you really need a proper suspension and good brakes, to be able to deal with broken pavement and normal road conditions. 160mm hydraulic brakes are fine but definitely have some mild fade when stopping from >25mph. I've done >40mph on descents in a road bike, but that's vastly different than typical urban roads.
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Old 11-20-20, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by gsa103 View Post

Yamaha is one of the major manufacturers of eBike motors.
Yamaha is getting into electric motors in a big way. They just announced a line of very sophisticated electric car motors. They aren't interested in making cars, just the motors.

They are likely to consolidate the e-bike motor market. I expect some of the smaller companies to exit or find a niche.
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Old 11-20-20, 03:27 PM
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The Serial One as much as I am not a fan of Harley or motorcycles the e-bike isn't a bad looking bike in the specs department. Good reliable quite Brose-S motor belt drive CVT that is automatic is something I have customers interested in often and don't always want to spend R+M prices. We shall see what becomes of it. I want to be a hater just because I am not a Harley fan but when it ticks a lot of boxes, I am willing to give it a chance.

In terms of China beating out someone like Bosch, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Yes they will win on initial price, China usually wins on that but quality is going to fall to Bosch easily, that and support as well. Plus they are built into bikes which means no spoke issues or bottom bracket issues for the mid drive bolt ons. Also plenty of power and torque for a bicycle. If I really need a load of power and throttles they have these things that just came out yesterday called MOTORCYCLES, they do the job quite well and if I need a little less power scooters are another option.
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Old 11-20-20, 06:15 PM
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Originally Posted by veganbikes View Post
In terms of China beating out someone like Bosch, HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
And yet Bafang is the worlds largest manufacturer of electric bike motors.

Go figure.
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Old 11-20-20, 09:40 PM
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The Brose motor is not reliable.
Remember the 'Landrider' with auto transmission? Nobody wants to ride an autoshifting bike.
250 watts and 66ftpounds of torgue .... ya, I don't think so. Keep on dreaming.
Why would anyone spend $4499 when you can get bikes like this for...:
https://www.aventon.com/products/ave...commuter-ebike
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Old 11-21-20, 03:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Pop N Wood View Post
And yet Bafang is the worlds largest manufacturer of electric bike motors.

Go figure.
McDonald’s burgers are burgers that are so delicious and nutritious that you can, should, and want to eat them every day.
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Old 11-21-20, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by hsuBM View Post
McDonald’s burgers are burgers that are so delicious and nutritious that you can, should, and want to eat them every day.
Except the quote wasn't about quality but quantity.
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Old 11-21-20, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by veganbikes View Post
China usually wins on that but quality is going to fall to Bosch easily, that and support as well. Plus they are built into bikes which means no spoke issues or bottom bracket issues for the mid drive bolt ons. Also plenty of power and torque for a bicycle. If I really need a load of power and throttles they have these things that just came out yesterday called MOTORCYCLES, they do the job quite well and if I need a little less power scooters are another option.
You know lots to explore in your statement there. I know as a bike shop employee your reputation for wanting to see someone's union card get punched proceeds you. Bafang kits do require a degree of self sufficiency, although have to wonder if that changes when one buys a ready built bike from a place like Juiced or Aventon.

But the rest of it is a common response I often see and simply do not understand. Do you honestly think the smaller motor is some sort of advantage? It has always smacked of sour grapes to me. I understand why manufactures do it, one bike applicable to all the world's markets, lowest common denominator if you will, nothing adjustable minimizing the chance the user will break it.

But really, 1/3 of a horsepower is hardly anyone's idea of powerful, the power levels are programable so range are equivalent for both motor types and from what I can tell a BBS02 unit weighs the same as your beloved Brose and Bosch units. Same weight but twice the available torque and 5 or 6 times the power. Seems like a no brainer to me.

Bottom bracket issues? First I've heard of the Bafang kits having issues with that. I know mine has been rock solid.

As for quality the Bafangs have an exceptional reputation on line. Some of the early units had issues, but they have made continual improvements. Like it or not the quality and reliability is there. It is Chinese and not German, don't know if that makes any difference to you.
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Old 11-21-20, 07:50 AM
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Funny, I've seen threads about the "majors" quality problems with motors, but in the major "e" sites that exist (AFAIK), Endless Sphere, MTBR and Bike Forums, not one about problems with Bafang's BBS02 which probably has engulfed them in sales volume. I guess, to coin a term, "you need to shill what you sell".
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Old 11-21-20, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Pop N Wood View Post
And yet Bafang is the worlds largest manufacturer of electric bike motors.

Go figure.
Originally Posted by Pop N Wood View Post
Except the quote wasn't about quality but quantity.
Not disagreeing that they make a lot of motors. However my initial comment was on quality. Making more of something doesn't mean it is good.

Originally Posted by trailangel View Post
The Brose motor is not reliable.
Remember the 'Landrider' with auto transmission? Nobody wants to ride an autoshifting bike.
250 watts and 66ftpounds of torgue .... ya, I don't think so. Keep on dreaming.
Why would anyone spend $4499 when you can get bikes like this for...:
https://www.aventon.com/products/ave...commuter-ebike
The Brose motor is plenty reliable, I don't see a whole lot of issues on them aside from some belts breaking once and while.

Landrider was garbage but that doesn't mean the whole idea is as well. While I am not a fan of the Enviolo Automatiq system because I do enjoy shifting I know some people who own them and ride them and enjoy them and more would get on board easily. Some of these people don't want a bike like you or I, they want something super easy and that is what a system like this could afford.

Yes I could buy a cheap aventonton and yes it is an e-bike so at the barest generalization they are the same bike but not actually the case. Yes an eMachines tower is a computer technically but compared to say a Power Mac G3 it was a hunk of crap.

There is no way I would want a hub drive after seeing enough hub drives with problems over the years. With the dedicated mid-drive platforms I see a lot fewer problems. I have also not been a fan of Aventonton, their fixed gears weren't good and their e-bikes aren't fairing much better.


As far as someone mentioning I work at a shop, yes I do so I see a lot of bikes come through the door and because we are a very large e-bike shop and service center we see a lot of e-bikes. It is not about punching a card, I don't blindly walk and support stuff. If I saw a bolt on kit being better than a dedicated platform, you bet your keister I would stand behind it. However that is not the case, there is plenty of stuff the shop sells that I don't recommend or stand behind in much capacity. However I get it this forum loves to slap a kit on a bike and call it awesome and that is fine if you want to do it and even better if it works for ya.
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Old 11-22-20, 04:56 PM
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Hmmmm. Neighbor has a high end Bulls eMTB with Brose motor. Motor crapped the bed at 600 miles. Maybe they have fixed this issue.
Mid drive for eMTB, but I don't see anything wrong with a rear hub motor for light trail/street use... beside the weight making the bike ride hard.
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Old 11-25-20, 03:38 PM
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for anyone who doesn't think the Chinese won't beat out the European bike motor makers check out Bafang's current line up of just mid drive motors

https://bafang-e.com/en/products/motors/m-series/

They actually have a shaft drive system, no idea on price, plus half a dozen built in options.

Exciting times.
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Old 11-27-20, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by hsuBM View Post
McDonald’s burgers are burgers that are so delicious and nutritious that you can, should, and want to eat them every day.
Not a good analogy. Bafang might indeed be the "McDonald's" of e-bike motors in terms of high sales volume, but more like "TGI Fridays" in terms of quality. Today, all the world's best electronics are made in China.

People need to take their heads out from that place where the Sun doesn't shine and realize that things have changed.

Roughly 40-50 years ago, there was a stigma that anything produced in Japan was garbage but now look at them. China has pretty much caught up to them and that's a fact.

Last edited by edwong3; 11-27-20 at 11:26 AM.
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Old 11-29-20, 06:24 AM
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We like to think we're the center of the ebike universe. Unfortunately, we're not.
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Old 11-29-20, 03:00 PM
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Originally Posted by edwong3 View Post
Not a good analogy. Bafang might indeed be the "McDonald's" of e-bike motors in terms of high sales volume, but more like "TGI Fridays" in terms of quality. Today, all the world's best electronics are made in China.

People need to take their heads out from that place where the Sun doesn't shine and realize that things have changed.

Roughly 40-50 years ago, there was a stigma that anything produced in Japan was garbage but now look at them. China has pretty much caught up to them and that's a fact.
There is a huge variation in quality of Chinese manufactured products. The high quality stuff is really good, maybe the best in the world. However there is a lot of crap in the lower end.
Products made for the Chinese market are particularly bad. In terms of ebikes and motors, the top equipment maybe is world beating. Be very cautious with lower end gear.
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Old 12-04-20, 02:05 PM
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I think bicycle manufacturers are putting out as many ebikes as they can. No eta on ebikes for our shop.
Motorsports companies may have more pull with suppliers that aren't wedded to the bicycle industry and aren't as swamped.
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Old 12-04-20, 02:39 PM
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People talk about Chinese low quality today the way they talked about Japanese quality in the 70s and 80s, before Japan took over quality- and otherwise, with bikes, cars, electronics, etc., especially relative to US goods/manufacturing. We shall see, but I'm already very happy with most of my quality Chinese goods, including my US-branded bikes. They tried high tariffs to save Schwinn too, but it was late and its price advantage was not enough, and it failed quickly.
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Old 12-04-20, 02:51 PM
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GM made the e-bike effort too: Its Ariv unit launched last year, releasing or at least announcing a couple of models in Europe, at least, and then closed down this year.
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