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drive train recommendation for cyc 3000 watts

Old 04-27-21, 12:42 PM
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kracksmith
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drive train recommendation for cyc 3000 watts

I need a recommendation to buy a rear hub with a single gear for the durability of using the cyc x1 pro gen 2 with 3000 watts and 52v. What brand should i be looking at and what size gear is ideal for something fast enough off the line, and fast enough top end? I know i can't have both without gears of selection but since i'm aiming for durability, the single gear would be tough as it should be.
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Old 04-27-21, 05:36 PM
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White Industries gear and hub; probably need only 12 - 14 teeth). Plan on lots of worn parts and keep your health insurance up to date unless you install motorcycle components (wheels, tires, etc). Save yourself time and trouble, get a SurRon.
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Old 04-27-21, 09:26 PM
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Thanks for the reply and tips. SurRon is nice of course but much heavier and not really a bicycle. I wouldn't be able to bring it in the metro train and can't really ride it in the bike road trail. Yes they offer pedaling but whose going to pedal at over 110lbs. Having a cyc pro x1on a regular bicycle can still pedal good enough and can pass as a bicycle in many things, but electric energy is there when needed for against the wind and up hills. yes too much power on a bicycle but i know not to bash and race with it.
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Old 04-28-21, 06:15 AM
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Do you really need 3k watt power output? If speed is not a priority.
If you're only dealing with power output to climb hills & against windy conditions, 3k watts seems overkill.
To carry a e-bike on/off trains maybe your main challenge.
From experience, I carry may folding e-bike on-off NYC subway trains, getting to the up/down train platform and over the turnstyles are main challenge to lift the e-bike.
My folding e-bike is about 45-50 lb.; I use it mainly for personal transport without carrying extra weight.
It has 7-speed 750w rear hub motor, I have put about 300 miles on it since MAR 2020. I don't use it often, because lifting it to get on/off trains are real hassle. And the Port Authority of NY/NJ require bikes on trains to be folding bikes.
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Old 04-28-21, 11:44 PM
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I like your fold-away ebike. What is the brand and model and how much?

3K watts is too much for what I wanted to use this for. I really wanted the cyc stealth 1500 watts version but they didn't have my chain-ring size i want, which matched up with my stock chain ring size. CYC representative said just get the 3K watts version and I can go as fast or slow as i want. Plus, if things break too much or i get tired of this, i can always get a better mountain bike and swap this over, its a easy install.

so if i change my rear rim/tire to something wider with new hub and new single cog, at least i should be able to have more fun with it than using the fragile internal 3spd hub presently.
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Old 04-29-21, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by kracksmith View Post
I like your fold-away ebike. What is the brand and model and how much?
https://www.qualisports.us/collectio...oducts/dolphin

I got the bike back in 2019, it was a little cheaper back then, under $1k.
Smaller wheel size usually offer stronger wheel, 750x motor gives plenty of torque for my at 175 lb. to go up hills and maintain 20 mph with PAS.
Wider tires does a decent job absorbs road shock.
If I were to do it over with another folding e-bike, it would have the batter hidden in the frame instead of seatpost battery.

Originally Posted by kracksmith View Post
3K watts is too much for what I wanted to use this for. I really wanted the cyc stealth 1500 watts version but they didn't have my chain-ring size i want, which matched up with my stock chain ring size. CYC representative said just get the 3K watts version and I can go as fast or slow as i want. Plus, if things break too much or i get tired of this, i can always get a better mountain bike and swap this over, its a easy install.

so if i change my rear rim/tire to something wider with new hub and new single cog, at least i should be able to have more fun with it than using the fragile internal 3spd hub presently.
No one knows for sure whether 3k watts is too much for you.
It's difficult to tell without knowing your specific usage, weight of rider, what cargo you might want to carry on the bike.
Depending on your budget, converting your current bike/rear wheel might not be cost effective if you want to take the bike or e-bike onto trains.
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Old 04-29-21, 09:10 AM
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thanks ill surely look into a qualisports for my wife.im 150lbs so the 3kwatts kit will give me plenty of torq and speed provided my bike can handle it, therefore would like a complete new rear wheel setup for something with wider tires/rim combo, plus that white industry freewheel cog. i hope to just continue to use my fixie type frame and not need to go the purchasing of a mountain bike. i plan to just use it to cruise around for fun. the metro in california allows full size bikes still.
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Old 04-29-21, 09:38 AM
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One thing to keep in mind is whether you're used to operating a bicycle or e-bike among traffic at high speed.
I've built my own 82v 45k watt rear wheel e-bike out of my old DH bike for street usage.
DH bike for extra strength at high speed, regular MTB can be pushed to the limits with higher speed forces generated with electric motor; more than often frame failure can occur. Make sure you have good brakes & your frame can stand the hard braking.
IME, the fun at high speed wears out rather quickly, if you plan to ride with your wife; a high speed e-bike simply isn't much fun to ride with others who are not used to operating at high speed.
Riding a fast bike at slow speed can just be a twitchy ride, constant on/off throttle and PAS system that doesn't quite allow you to pedal smoothly.
I've been riding motorcycles for over two decades, not a stranger to operating 2-wheel vehicles at high speed among traffic in public.
On a high speed capable e-bike, you can get into trouble real quick.. just like a motorcycle, injury can be much worse than riding a regular bicycle.
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Old 04-29-21, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by kracksmith View Post
thanks ill surely look into a qualisports for my wife.im 150lbs so the 3kwatts kit will give me plenty of torq and speed provided my bike can handle it, therefore would like a complete new rear wheel setup for something with wider tires/rim combo, plus that white industry freewheel cog. i hope to just continue to use my fixie type frame and not need to go the purchasing of a mountain bike. i plan to just use it to cruise around for fun. the metro in california allows full size bikes still.
Make sure you check the rear dropout width on your fixie before purchasing new wheels; also you may have difficulty getting much fatter tires to fit in the seatstays.
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Old 04-29-21, 11:03 AM
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My exact bike is a 2008 specialized centrum elite that comes with a internal 3spd hub. Looking at the with of the frame, looks like i can get a much wider rim/wheel to use a white industry free wheel cog and hub.
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Old 04-29-21, 03:57 PM
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Originally Posted by kracksmith View Post
My exact bike is a 2008 specialized centrum elite that comes with a internal 3spd hub. Looking at the with of the frame, looks like i can get a much wider rim/wheel to use a white industry free wheel cog and hub.
You sound enthusiastic enough but I can tell from you posts that you are going to pay very dearly for your e bike education.

Regardless of what we are all accused of by the purist zealots the real problem with an e bike is the fact that they are bicycles and not motorcycles. Not the other way around. The writers of the USA e bike regs were very clever. 750 watts is really stretching the upper bounds of power to remain safe and have something reliable. Bicycles are engineered for slow reliable low powered transportation. When you want to hang 3000 watts on a bike, you end up with a motorcycle like Sur Ron when you are done. Anything less is dangerous and totally unreliable.

Right away you indicated that you want to save money by piecemealing parts and pieces together instead of building from the ground up.
You mentioned you want to use a 52 volt battery. 52 volts will not support 3000 watts of power. Think 72 volts at 21 amp hours and 15 lb minimum. Even then, you will stress the battery.
Your frame is not strong enough for half that much power let alone that much. Prepare to take a spill when the frame fails.
With a single rear cog driven by a Cyclone you will have one speed only where your cadence is right. Most of the time you will be at lower speeds and inefficient power ranges so you will be over torqueing everything and overheating the motor.
Lifting what you end up with? forget it.
When you get something that stays together and you can live with, your bike will not pass the visual /smell test to ride it on a bike path without scrutiny..

Your biggest expense is likely to be the insurance deductibles. not the broken bike parts.

From your original description a 500 watt bike would suit you fine.

I don't want to throw cold water on your dream here but I have seen this scenario play out many times and the results are always expensive. I have not made these kinds of mistakes but my education has been plenty expensive and not over yet. I keep thinking "one more little fix". When I learn enough, I will start over.
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Old 04-29-21, 06:14 PM
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Not trying to discourage you, but getting a straight chainline could be a challenge since many (all?) DIY mid-drives have chainrings that are further from the frame than normal in order to provide enough clearance for the motor from the frame. Some DIY'ers use a Lekkie chainring, which moves the ring in substantially closer to the frame. I built a SS, but had a cassette rear hub so there was plenty of room to move the cog around and get a straight chainline.
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Old 04-30-21, 02:02 AM
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At Kpren, Cat002, and 2old, thank you for the great insight on this. The things you guys all share here with me are worth more than gold.

Installing a 3000 watts motor on a older bike does not mean I would use all the power from the motor to my bike. As Cat002 stated, a motor with too much power could mean a uncomfortable ride as it can't go slow and will jerk since there is so much torq. I did not realize it until you stated this. If I do experience this and it's true, I will need to buy quality bike, something DH that is well built as mentioned. If it rides ok going slow, I will keep in mind to go easy, not balls to the wall.

"With a single rear cog driven by a Cyclone you will have one speed only where your cadence is right. Most of the time you will be at lower speeds and inefficient power ranges so you will be over torqueing everything and overheating the motor." Now this is important to me so I need to figure this out so I won't over torque and make my motor run hot or blow it up. How do I calculate or yet build my drive train to not overheat? Again, with all the warnings here, I am not trying to race it off the line with cars, nor would I want to go top speed. I just want to cruise this with this 3000 watts motor since I already bought it.

My motor sprocket is 11 tooth, and my chaingring is 12/72T, my rear freewheel cog should be what, 12 tooth? How would I calculate to not stress my motor, I am not concern with performance at this point, and just want to ride it having the right ratio to not burn out the motor. At a later time if I want experiment to go fast to kill myself with it, so be it. Right now just need to get used to it. I'll worry about the width of the rim and tires myself for just aesthetic looks.

"You mentioned you want to use a 52 volt battery. 52 volts will not support 3000 watts of power. Think 72 volts at 21 amp hours and 15 lb minimum. Even then, you will stress the battery." Well I didn't come up with that specs, I'm just buying it as advertised being 3000 watts with the 52 volts battery Im buying. I need to learn how to calculate this as well.

"getting a straight chainline could be a challenge" I seen some youtube vdo about needing to readjust all your spokes, yes looks challenging.
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Old 04-30-21, 05:23 AM
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Originally Posted by kracksmith View Post
"You mentioned you want to use a 52 volt battery. 52 volts will not support 3000 watts of power. Think 72 volts at 21 amp hours and 15 lb minimum. Even then, you will stress the battery." Well I didn't come up with that specs, I'm just buying it as advertised being 3000 watts with the 52 volts battery Im buying. I need to learn how to calculate this as well.
It's easier than what you think.
There is a company called Grin Technologies that provides a lot of good materials as well as a simulator that you can see what you will produce in numbers. Now the numbers tell you nothing about the way the bike will feel and handle. With the Cyclone and your bike you are not going to end up with a well integrated or pretty bike but you might end up with something you could live with. Here is Grin's site. Click on learn and click on tools. Home page (ebikes.ca)
I have no affiliation with Grin Technologies.
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Old 04-30-21, 06:37 AM
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I didn't know you already purchased the 3k watt motor, maybe you can return it for a refund?

May not be something to consider but durability, practicality & utility are very much priorities for me on most bicycles or e-bikes as I get older.

Speed is fun, but in my riding area; there is not a lot of roads that allow me to sustain the high speed without getting to a traffic light, stop sign or other vehicle traffic.

On the bike trails, I can ride without concern of motor vehicle traffic, but there are walkers, runners, fishermen, families with kids, etc.. may not be the ideal place for high speed cruising.

This may be a little out of the price range, but it's something that's well designed for urban e-bike usage:


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Old 04-30-21, 10:35 AM
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I didn't know you already had the motor either, but since you have it, you might as well work with it. Using 52V, I doubt the motor will produce more than 2,000w since the web site talks about 72V batteries. I tried to find out how many amps the controller is rated at, but couldn't (w = V X A). Also, I don't think you need to worry about heat since if you use less throttle, you will draw less from the battery. White Industries cogs go from 16 - 23 teeth, and you can disassemble and change the number of teeth AFAICT, so start with 18 and see how that works. Lastly, what you saw on YouTube was how to center the rim on the hub. Your challenge will be centering the rear gear and the front chainring, so you'll have a straight chainline, and you won't have much latitude to move either. Before you do much else you might install the motor and see how the chainline is compared to your current rear cog since the new one will be spaced similarly. If, as I suspect, there is a discrepancy, you'll need to try and solve that before proceeding.

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Old 04-30-21, 10:55 AM
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You need better health insurance..
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Old 04-30-21, 10:13 PM
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I have good insurance thanks

ebikes.ca calculator is somewhat complicated for me right now. Its asking for a lot of values I don't have even the manufacture website specs doesn't have.

Yes I bought the kit long ago due to the long back order, and just received it. I prefer to keep it and my reasons are below.

1. I wanted something future proof where, I can start slow, and build as I need to when I get more educated with ebikes electronics. Meaning not to buy less power now and later I need to rebuy for more power. Same analogy as if I bought a 600cc motorcycle and I got used to that, and now need a 1000cc.
2. Best range where I can change the battery setup and not get locked down to a battery that is built inside a bike frame like that yellow one. Plus having a removable battery allows me to carry a spare if necessary depends on the bike riding trip.
3. Lastly for my decision to buy a kit rather than a ebike is, the kit will allow me to swap bike platforms when necessary.

The battery I bought is a 52v, 2p14s, 50amps, 8ah, 416Wh, 2600 watts, Samsung 21700 40T cells. 8ah isn't much I believe. My controller is set for 52v too. So buying a 3000 watts motor doesn't mean my battery pack voltage of 52v will use all that 3000 watts as you guys mentioned. Yes my setup is still quite powerful, and I hope the controller will allow easy throttling when going from stop to normal bike speed. I plan to not go faster than 25mph, maybe 30mph if this battery can handle it. Not going to try 50mph if it can do that. Yes wind, hill, weight, and road can determine my actual speed.

I also need to build a good sturdy (not best) drivetrain. Since I have 12/72T for chainring, and 11 tooth motor sprocket, I will try out a 16 tooth rear freewheel rear hub setup.

The yellow bike posted is 4500 something bucks, and not scalable. ebike technology evolves quickly and that specs can be obsolete in a couple of years. So spending 4000+ grand upfront for a ebike is not quite affordable for most. My kit and battery is 1500, yes it doesn't include the bike, but I'll be putting on a existing bike and hope to last. If not yes I would have to buy another bike, and yes I see the high cost you guys are referring to and still not as stable as a 3500 sur-ron. I hope (gamble) to make what I have work and ride gentle to not break things.

I have the ASI BAC855 controller and reading it, it says 70amp normal and 90amp peaked and they programmed it for 52v.

Chain seems to be straight with the stock setup. I'm still waiting on my battery to be delivered, 8ah is not much amperage from what I'm reading.

What I need to research from your insights here are "calculations to know not to stress the battery and not over heat the motor".

Thanks guys



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Old 04-30-21, 11:23 PM
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The chainline, my biggest worry for your system, looks great, so probably the other one will be fine too. You're correct about the battery being overwhelmed by a 70 or 90 amp controller, and will need to be very gentle or it won't last long. For comparison, I have a 52V, 4ah battery with the same cells (14s, 1p) and with a BBS02 25 amp controller, I don't go above level three (of nine) on my pas, and it's good for 10 miles with lots of pedaling (still had 30% left, but didn't want to go below that in order to keep the battery from an early grave). When there was a throttle on my bike, I couldn't open it fully even when the battery was fresh off the charger. A 25ah battery would be what you should have. If I were you, I'd run the bike as is. Doubt you'll overpower the hub (but I could be wrong). Nice job on the installation. When the battery comes try it out if only to see how many miles you can ride. Might be only eight or so.
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Old 05-01-21, 08:15 AM
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I want to sell tickets and popcorn. I hope your running this whole thing with a Cycle Analyst so you have some control. Notice that you are driving a smaller bicycle chainring with a 41 motorcycle chain on a larger chainring. Unlike your motorcycle, your maximum torque will be at zero speed. You have to come back here with your WoW's
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Old 05-01-21, 10:36 AM
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So the left is the bicycle chain, the right is the chain for the motor which is bigger yes. When I bought this, I assume the company CYC would know to run a setup like this, left side bicycle, right side motor. so meaning the chainring for the bigger chain should be properly sized to work together.

Per cyc he said to stick to my large chain ring size match because my stock chainring is that size for normal biking. However the 11tooth motor sprocket maybe too small, and will look to have too much torque. Having a bigger motor sprocket is more ideal to have less torque. I have to install and play around the feel and then adjust, and of course monitor battery stress level and motor not to get too hot (both of these i don't know how yet).
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Old 05-02-21, 07:46 AM
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Pretty common for people to install temperature sensors in their motor to monitor overheat conditions. I've seen controller that use a temp sensor to restrict output. Absent that a separate display showing temp shouldn't be hard to do.

A good battery will have that built into the internal battery monitoring system. Sounds like you have an excellent battery.

One way to keep from overheating a motor is to not lug it in too high of a gear. With a single speed that will require some discipline on your part to not accelerate too hard from a stop. Keeping your speed up helps cool the motor as well, the Grin Technologies computer shows that.

I question the assumption you need a single speed for durability. A cassette will be good. Hub isn't so much of a restriction, but I would go with a wheel meant for a heavy rider. 36 spokes and a rim known for strength and not weight. Like KREN says you probably aren't going to hit 3kw output with your set up anyway. Overall I question whether you will lose durability by not having gearing to keep the motor in its sweet spot of efficiency.

Having a fast bike isn't going to get you killed but riding it like an idiot will. Not sure what is up with all the talk about insurance.

BTW let us know how you like that cyclone motor. I've seen a good bit a chatter about them being noisy and trouble prone with the way they mount.
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Old 05-02-21, 12:05 PM
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Reading forum chats, I can't tell anybody emotion by reading their message. I believe the talk here with the insurance thing is just a fun joke, as some are saying I don't know what the heck I'm doing by trying to run a 3000watts engine going full speed on a flimsy old bike. I am new to ebiking but not a dummy to commit suicide. If I screw up, nothing is going to blow up like a bomb but rather my equipment can get fried and it'll be a expensive lesson, which I'm trying to avoid.

This is just a alternative project for me to get into the ebiking of things without the need to purchase a full expensive ebike, which I'll learn nothing. I'm not good enough to really build one from scratch piecing parts together, so next best thing is to buy a ebike kit. CYC seems to be ideal from my research and I'll be going forward with it. As mentioned I don't need something crazy powerful as I wanted the 1500watts version instead but landed on the 3000watts version. I'm not trying to build something to be comparable to a Sur-Ron by cheaping out. I do understand if I don't calculate things rights, my project expense can surpass a Sur-Ron cost and I'll be left with junk and I should of went the Sur-Ron route. I did just pick up a 2014 Cannondale Rush with quality parts on it for 300 bucks. If things fail on my 1st bike, I'll transfer the motor to this but I will probably need a new smaller chainring.

"I've seen controller that use a temp sensor to restrict output. Absent that a separate display showing temp shouldn't be hard to do" Good deal, I'll look into both of these features.

I'm thinking about a freewheel single hub to replace my internal 3spd hub, so trying to find the right ratio to get enough good low/high combo. My bike has no cassette mounting option.

As for my CYC feedback with the installtion, parts looks to be very well made and designed and everything has fit good so far except the bigger chain that goes to the motor (12 tooth) is too small to add the tensioner to it. Without the tensioner it looks to have a proper slack but I can't run it like this as it will hit the screw cover, so I need to run the tensioner. I thought CYC will send me a new bigger size chain but they decided I should run a smaller motor sprocket (11 tooth) which they will send free to me. They have very good customer service and answers all questions.

As for the motor mount, they seem to have 3 types. Looking in youtube, very early on, it was zip ties, then it was velcro, now presently there are 2 types (A and B) of metal motor mounts with B being the latest version. The B version seems to have a better secure screw mounting point in how it holds up the motor. Both metal motor mounts seems to be for a square frame though, my frame is round. Version A doesn't seem to have any soft contact points so I had to use a plastic piece with electrical tape between the 2 metals. I did order the B version (30 bucks) and from what I seen in their vdo, it comes with a rubber piece between the metal. When ordering the kit, you can request the B version but you would have to state it to them in advance. I wasn't aware until I got the kit and installing it.

Picture below is how the chain hangs, and with my finger, that is my lifting it as much as I could. As you see not much room for the tensioner. The 3rd picture is from their vdo, that is how much slack there should be, so me getting the 11 tooth sprocket, not sure If I will get that much slack. I might just need to run the new 11 tooth, plus change out their tensioner roller to something much smaller so I can have the proper slack in the 3rd picture.

As for the motor mount, the pictures below is the A and B version. As you can see the B version (typically sent with the newer 1500watts stealth motor) has the better secure mounting design. The X1 Pro Gen2 version comes with version A. They can send you the B version upon request.











Last edited by kracksmith; 05-02-21 at 12:31 PM.
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Old 05-02-21, 03:00 PM
  #24  
2old
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Why do you need to use the tensioner except for more chain wrap the chain seems to be tensioned adequately? Also, could you have used some kind of rubber strips with the mount you have? As I said before, doubt you'll need to worry about too much power with an eight ah battery. I know you want a wheel that will support fatter tires, but when your battery arrives you might consider trying the bike as is, if for no other reason than to check the power level. Anyway, nice, clean installation; you did a great job for a first attempt.
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Old 05-02-21, 03:34 PM
  #25  
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I thought I could run this without the tensioner too but by using the cap cover, the screw cap cover gets in the way and will rub it.

I did barely forced the tensioner on but there is so much friction because the chain is very tight with 0 slack. Will wait for the 11 tooth motor sprocket to arrive and see how the slack is then.

i used a plastic piece with electric tape but yes a rubber piece would of been better. the mounting design of the new B version is much stronger which is on the way too.

right 8ah is mild. Yes will try to get it running before thinking further doing any changes i was just trying to think ahead.





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