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Relevance of elevators to these ebike fires in china?

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Relevance of elevators to these ebike fires in china?

Old 07-13-21, 06:50 PM
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moth54
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Relevance of elevators to these ebike fires in china?

Please note - I'm posting this in a spirit of scientific inquiry, not to start a war over ebikes.

Here's the first - I don't know the country of origin. There appear to be only two people in this elevator - and the ebike of course.)

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...w/82630172.cms

And the second (this one is from Chengdu, China. Note there are four adults and an infant inside the lift.)


Was it just coincidence that an elevator was involved?

Ebikes have jolts to the battery all the time, so what's different about the elevator?
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Old 07-14-21, 01:01 AM
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hydrocarbon
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I'm gonna go with bad timing on this one, rather than any sort of magic force field from the elevator.
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Old 07-14-21, 01:49 AM
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One gets good videos on the elevator. And, the people around the E-Scooters are largely trapped.

Those videos appear to be E-Scooters. Why aren't they left in the parking garage? My guess they are being moved around the building under power, rather than being pushed by hand.



Is there something in the lower rear right hand side of the E-Scooters that makes them vulnerable if bumped?



Ok, watching the IndiaTimes video, I'm not convinced it is the E-Scooter that went up in flames. It appears as if the second person in the elevator set a briefcase down near the rear of the bike. I think it may have been the briefcase that burst into flames (laptop powered on inside the briefcase?).

The cause of the fire in the YouTube video is less clear.

Of course the E-Scooters make the electrical fires much worse.

Anyway, the impact of the elevators may be in part bringing multiple electronic devices together (as appears to be the fault with the IndiaTimes video).

Last edited by CliffordK; 07-14-21 at 09:21 AM.
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Old 07-14-21, 03:26 AM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
On gets good videos on the elevator. And, the people around the E-Scooters are largely trapped.


Those videos appear to be E-Scooters. Why aren't they left in the parking garage? My guess they are being moved around the building under power, rather than being pushed by hand.


Is there something in the lower rear right hand side of the E-Scooters that makes them vulnerable if bumped?


Of course the E-Scooters make the electrical fires much worse.


Anyway, the impact of the elevators may be in part bringing multiple electronic devices together (as appears to be the fault with the IndiaTimes video).

Good point about the security footage in elevators. We see it because we can.


A confined space is a known risk amplifier - and an elevator certainly meets that definition. Good point about the proximity of other electronic devices with their own batteries that could fail and in turn ignite neighbouring batteries.


I went back to look at the Samsung Galaxy Note 7 fires, to see if I could think of any clues. In the Samsung cases it appears the battery was curved, and the tip of the negative electrode was incorrectly placed inside the curve. So the tip was deflected. So, could something about an elevator's jerky motion deflect electrode tips? [Needless to say as you point out, the scooter shouldn't have been in the elevator at all let alone being ridden into it.]


Even the replacement batteries by Samsung, ordered in haste for the recall of the FIRST batteries, had problems, they had welding burrs that "penetrated the insulation tape and separator which then caused direct contact between the positive tab with the negative electrode." Some batteries were even missing insulation tape altogether. Talk about a confined space!
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Old 07-14-21, 03:36 AM
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Stop and think about that for a second. How could an elevator possibly apply any force higher than what you'd get from simply riding the bike over a bump? They're not that jerky.
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Old 07-14-21, 07:31 AM
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Probably just coincidence as I have yet to see a Tesla fire on an elevator.

Battery fires are probably every day in China. Scooters need large very cheap batteries in China to meet the demand. Safety is not job one in a communist society.
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Old 07-14-21, 07:43 AM
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Right, because a capitalist society would never cut corners on safety.
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Old 07-14-21, 07:44 AM
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assplosion like that means the bike must have been made from crabon.
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Old 07-14-21, 10:22 AM
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Coincidence, but you gotta be careful what you get into an elevator with. We used to bring compressed gas and liquid nitrogen cylinders up in a freight elevator, riding along with the load. One time a liquid nitrogen tank, a big one about 5' tall and 2 1/2 or 3' diameter blew out a safety valve and the room it was in had to be evacuated for a while. Had that happenned in the elevator, you'd have been holding your breath and praying the elevator made it to the destination without a problem. After that, I never rode in the elevator with gas cyllinders. I'd run up to the destination floor and press the call button to bring it up. Live and learn.
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Old 07-14-21, 10:26 AM
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A poor guy died in SIngapore a month ago when his "PMD" caught fire. He was not the first to be killed in that nation.

https://www.asiaone.com/singapore/pm...delivery-rider

And I was surprised that Singapore had 102 escooter fires in 2019, twice the number they had in 2018. And they banned them from bike paths, reducing the number of e-scooters from 100K to under 10K.

https://www.straitstimes.com/singapo...rcuits-experts
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Old 07-14-21, 10:46 AM
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Good. I hope they ban every one of those cursed things from public roads.
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Old 07-14-21, 10:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Chuckles1 View Post
Coincidence, but you gotta be careful what you get into an elevator with. We used to bring compressed gas and liquid nitrogen cylinders up in a freight elevator, riding along with the load. One time a liquid nitrogen tank, a big one about 5' tall and 2 1/2 or 3' diameter blew out a safety valve and the room it was in had to be evacuated for a while. Had that happenned in the elevator, you'd have been holding your breath and praying the elevator made it to the destination without a problem. After that, I never rode in the elevator with gas cyllinders. I'd run up to the destination floor and press the call button to bring it up. Live and learn.
Nitrogen is non-toxic. You breathe in more nitrogen than oxygen.

But, there is a risk of asphyxiation from oxygen displacement. And, of course it is a cryogen. Even compressed gasses can cause freezing upon rapid expansion.

It is not a bad idea to chain them down in the elevator, and ride a different elevator.
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Old 07-14-21, 11:35 AM
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Really we just have an issue with battery technology. Lithium isn't that stable of an element compared to some other materials and if something goes wrong the fire is a real issue. Lithium cars catching fire, and its happening more than we realize, can reignite for days and take 10s of thousands of gallons to put out. The Grand Tour crashed an electric car, and they had to have it watched for 4 days since it kept reigniting. If electric cars, scooters, and bikes are going to take over we need a batter battery technology. Seen some rumors of an aluminum tech that will charge faster, last longer and be a lot less fire prone but I think the big issue is properly regulating the recharge/discharge cycles and heat. With more battery cars being able to hit 60mph in the 2sec range we might see more accidents and more fires that send the current tech the way of the Pinto.
Don't think the elevator is the issue though, they just have cameras and these are areas with high battery usage.
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Old 07-14-21, 02:35 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Nitrogen is non-toxic. You breathe in more nitrogen than oxygen.

But, there is a risk of asphyxiation from oxygen displacement. .
Google "exit bag".

Nitrogen is also being proposed to replace lethal injection for death penalty cases.

Dangerous stuff.
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Old 07-16-21, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by Pop N Wood View Post
Google "exit bag".

Nitrogen is also being proposed to replace lethal injection for death penalty cases.

Dangerous stuff.
Yes, a big tank of liquid nitrogen that blows out a safety valve would quickly displace virtually all the oxygen in an elevator in seconds. Compressed gas cylinders would do the same if they had a catastrophic failure and spewed their contents. Hence my point about not riding in elevators with any compressed or liquified gasses.
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Old 07-16-21, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Chuckles1 View Post
Yes, a big tank of liquid nitrogen that blows out a safety valve would quickly displace virtually all the oxygen in an elevator in seconds. Compressed gas cylinders would do the same if they had a catastrophic failure and spewed their contents. Hence my point about not riding in elevators with any compressed or liquified gasses.
Good point, agree heartily, should be illegal (or elevators should be required to have a forced air system to evacuate the gas rapidly).
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