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Just because you can doesn't mean you should

Old 02-24-22, 11:13 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by rumrunn6 View Post
imagine that! a bunch of ebikes doing their own 25-30mph paceline?!
Seems doable with rules and a decent leader on the road, not on a mup.
A herd of cats like the dude described in the OP, who just want to go fast because they can, not so much.
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Old 02-24-22, 12:10 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by FBOATSB View Post
Seems doable with rules and a decent leader on the road, not on a mup
sounds fun. would like to watch, from a distance
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Old 02-24-22, 12:34 PM
  #28  
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The group that I was learning to ride with were very experienced, and had a paceline. The concept didn't appeal to me, so I went back to 100% MTB.
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Old 02-24-22, 12:42 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Bald Paul View Post
The club does not want to ban e-bikes on club rides. How would you handle this?
I haven't read any of the responses, but I think this is the answer, i.e.,

Either

(1) The club should ban e-bikes on all club rides.

or

(2) The club should allow two types of B-group rides:
(a) E-bike allowed.
(b) E-bike forbidden.

Option 2 would be more diplomatic, and you could even put him in charge of the 2a rides. If no one else shows up for these, then he might get the message. If they do, problem solved.

I'm suggesting this as a non-E-bike rider who has a wife who is a (reluctant) E-bike rider, and also as someone who would never want to inflict my lack of experience riding with a tight group upon anyone.

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Old 02-24-22, 12:50 PM
  #30  
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I'm wondering if it would be out of the question to limit your club to riders with conventional bikes rather than allowing bikes with motors to join in.
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Old 02-24-22, 12:56 PM
  #31  
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Rework club rules to have open group rides and rides that require prior authorization before they can join. Establish your ride as invite/approved only and exclude the rider. It addresses both this rider and any future inevitable riders that pose the same issue. Some riders even on non e-bikes have more fitness than sense.
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Old 02-24-22, 12:59 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Route 66 View Post
I'm wondering if it would be out of the question to limit your club to riders with conventional bikes rather than allowing bikes with motors to join in.
That goes back to the question I posed earlier... Sure you could set such a rule, but what do you do when someone willfully chooses to ignore it and starts riding within the group as it sets out?

That's more the OP's problem - issue is the riders inexperience and the resulting safety concerns. They've talked to him about it (to some extent at least), and he's willfully choosing to ignore their request and keeps showing up.

What then?

Edit: Bald Paul I think the ebike thing is perhaps distracting from the core question of how do you handle an unsafe rider who refuses to do anything different after having had a conversation with him about the concerns. Yes, the ebike is contributing to the situation as he'd unlikely be able to keep up otherwise, but the real question is how does a riding group handle an unwanted (for whatever reason) rider who insists on intruding?

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Old 02-24-22, 03:55 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by gpburdell View Post
That goes back to the question I posed earlier... Sure you could set such a rule, but what do you do when someone willfully chooses to ignore it and starts riding within the group as it sets out?

That's more the OP's problem - issue is the riders inexperience and the resulting safety concerns. They've talked to him about it (to some extent at least), and he's willfully choosing to ignore their request and keeps showing up.

What then?

Edit: Bald Paul I think the ebike thing is perhaps distracting from the core question of how do you handle an unsafe rider who refuses to do anything different after having had a conversation with him about the concerns. Yes, the ebike is contributing to the situation as he'd unlikely be able to keep up otherwise, but the real question is how does a riding group handle an unwanted (for whatever reason) rider who insists on intruding?
You're absolutely correct with your edit, but I wanted to get more e-bike rider responses if possible. If the mods would like to move this to General, or Advocacy and Safety, that would be fine.
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Old 02-24-22, 04:16 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by Bald Paul View Post
You're absolutely correct with your edit, but I wanted to get more e-bike rider responses if possible. If the mods would like to move this to General, or Advocacy and Safety, that would be fine.
Fair enough - it is your thread, and I didn't mean to imply it was incorrectly located.

I do not presently own an ebike, although my wife purchased one in November. She hadn't ridden in years and this is her re-entry to just having a bicycle to toodle around the neighborhood and relatively nearby shops. She does not have the experience to keep a tight line and has no group riding experience. If we should go to an organized ride at some point, there's no way in h**l she'd be so presumptuous as to join a group such as your B-group. We'd hang out in the D (or E or F) group such that everyone could remain safe.

In contrast I've also ridden in an LBS's saturday ride B(C) group - on my conventional road bike, I don't own a ebike - and two of the other riders were on ebikes. They were skilled road riders who kept tight lines, communicated well, and clearly had plenty of group riding experience. Given their apparent ages I suspect they'd spent plenty of years on conventional bikes before doing similar to your comments above in getting ebikes to help them maintain the pace they enjoy.

All in all I think it comes down to awareness and consideration for others. Someone might show up with an ebike without an awareness that their lack of skill/experience causes a safety issue. Should that occur, the considerate individual would follow your suggestions and either hang back or go ride with the group better suited to their skill level until they're able to integrate well with a tighter group such as your B group.

You've encountered someone who apparently either remains unaware despite your conversations, or is aware and is just inconsiderate.

Last edited by gpburdell; 02-25-22 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 02-24-22, 04:25 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by gpburdell View Post
That goes back to the question I posed earlier... Sure you could set such a rule, but what do you do when someone willfully chooses to ignore it and starts riding within the group as it sets out?
I can't imagine anyone forcing themselves into a group after they've been told that they haven't met that club's requirements. I know I wouldn't do it and I think most people have more self respect than to try that.
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Old 02-24-22, 05:11 PM
  #36  
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This tale exemplifies one of the things I like least about e-bikes. They allow people to ride faster than they are capable of handling.
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Old 02-24-22, 05:21 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by Eric F View Post
This tale exemplifies one of the things I like least about e-bikes. They allow people to ride faster than they are capable of handling.
just like cars motorcycles and such. a mid drive e bike requires work to make it go and go fast a hub drive only requites you to spin the pedals at most to go. I did 28 on my and I had to put out 250 watts to maintain that speed on a flat road on the highest level of assist. . hub drives are far cheaper and seem more attractive and seem to attract casual riders.
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Old 02-24-22, 05:47 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Route 66 View Post
I can't imagine anyone forcing themselves into a group after they've been told that they haven't met that club's requirements. I know I wouldn't do it and I think most people have more self respect than to try that.
I agree with your post, but lately in general I always see that ONE guy

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Old 02-24-22, 05:56 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by grizzly59 View Post
I agree with your post, but lately in general I always see that ONE guy
There's always one and I'm not referring to just cycling.
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Old 02-24-22, 06:08 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by fooferdoggie View Post
just like cars motorcycles and such. a mid drive e bike requires work to make it go and go fast a hub drive only requites you to spin the pedals at most to go. I did 28 on my and I had to put out 250 watts to maintain that speed on a flat road on the highest level of assist. . hub drives are far cheaper and seem more attractive and seem to attract casual riders.
Cars and motorcycles require education, training, and testing to make sure you know what you're doing before you are allowed to operate them on the roads.

There are some large and competitive group rides in my area that will roll for miles at 25-30 mph. It's somewhat self-selective. If you are able to stay with the group at that speed, you're pretty fit and have probably been riding long enough to know how to handle yourself. E-assist changes that equation.

Last edited by Eric F; 02-24-22 at 06:13 PM.
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Old 02-24-22, 06:23 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Bald Paul View Post
I highlighted that statement. How do you propose to tell someone they have no right to ride with members of a club they have joined? For that matter, how could you tell a non-club member that you come up to along the road that they aren't allowed to jump in? You can tell them it's a club only ride, and due to insurance they would not be covered should they crash and be injured. The idea being, of course, that they don't cause the crash that injures any club members. If they still hang in, do you call the police? "Hey, officer, this guy riding a bike is riding with us riding bikes!" I'm sure SWAT will be dispatched right away.

The group has no issues with an 'old guy on an e-bike' riding with a group faster than his level of fitness IF he has the skills to do so. There is no legal way (that I'm aware of) to tell someone they can't ride with you, and having an entire group of riders not ride to avoid being taken out by one bad rider on his e-bike isn't really an option.
Participating in a club is a privilege, not a right. Your club establishes rules. Just as club rules define speed ranges for groups, it can establish whatever other rules it chooses. There is nothing wrong with establishing skill requirements for the group. Anyone who fails to follow those rules should be denied participation.

If you were driving in a car or walking down the street and you saw someone was following you, don't you think you would call the police. Most people would. I don't know where you are but, in most places, it's considered stalking. In Connecticut, where I live the law defines third-degree stalking as recklessly causing another person to reasonably fear for his or her physical safety by willfully and repeatedly following or lying-in wait for that person. The offense is a class B misdemeanor, punishable by up to six months in prison, up to a $ 1,000 fine, or both. So, yes, you can certainly call the police if someone rides with you against your will and you're concerned for your safety.
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Old 02-24-22, 06:39 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by Eric F View Post
Cars and motorcycles require education, training, and testing to make sure you know what you're doing before you are allowed to operate them on the roads.

There are some large and competitive group rides in my area that will roll for miles at 25-30 mph. It's somewhat self-selective. If you are able to stay with the group at that speed, you're pretty fit and have probably been riding long enough to know how to handle yourself. E-assist changes that equation.
and that still doesn't to stop idiots from breaking the law. is always up to people to do the right thing. was in danger doing the pandemic from new regular bike riders going the wrong way and doing stupid things. people who I am sure drive cars.
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Old 02-24-22, 07:26 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Bald Paul View Post
How do you propose to tell someone they have no right to ride with members of a club they have joined?
How organized is this club? Are there officers, bylaws and whatnot or is it a loose social based group meeting for rides? As I mentioned, I have never participated in group rides, but I have been in a few running organizations. Those organizations have the right to expel or reject anyone not observing the bylaws of the group.
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Old 02-24-22, 10:40 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Tony P. View Post
If you were driving in a car or walking down the street and you saw someone was following you, don't you think you would call the police. Most people would. I don't know where you are but, in most places, it's considered stalking. In Connecticut, where I live the law defines third-degree stalking as recklessly causing another person to reasonably fear for his or her physical safety by willfully and repeatedly following or lying-in wait for that person. The offense is a class B misdemeanor, punishable by up to six months in prison, up to a $ 1,000 fine, or both. So, yes, you can certainly call the police if someone rides with you against your will and you're concerned for your safety.
That has got to be the most ridiculously funny post I've ever read on this forum.
Wait, you're not serious, are you?

Originally Posted by Chuck M View Post
How organized is this club? Are there officers, bylaws and whatnot or is it a loose social based group meeting for rides? As I mentioned, I have never participated in group rides, but I have been in a few running organizations. Those organizations have the right to expel or reject anyone not observing the bylaws of the group.
The club's mission statement is to "provide education and promotion of bicycle safety and a forum for posting weekly rides, charity rides, amateur sports competition, and touring." It's the "education and promotion of bicycle safety" part that this guy doesn't want to hear, because it seems like he feels if he can keep pace, he's good. I mean, the club even holds 'beginner' rides with leaders and sweeps. Easy pace (12 mph ave) and lots of tips on how to use your gears, brakes, proper riding etiquette, remembering to unclip before you stop (DOH!) etc. But, why ride at 12 mph when you can easily do 18, right?
If someone could tell me how to legally prevent a rider (club member or not) from joining in on a group ride on public roads, hey, I'm all ears.
No, I'm not calling the police.
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Old 02-24-22, 10:48 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Bald Paul View Post
The club's mission statement is to "provide education and promotion of bicycle safety and a forum for posting weekly rides, charity rides, amateur sports competition, and touring." It's the "education and promotion of bicycle safety" part that this guy doesn't want to hear, because it seems like he feels if he can keep pace, he's good. I mean, the club even holds 'beginner' rides with leaders and sweeps. Easy pace (12 mph ave) and lots of tips on how to use your gears, brakes, proper riding etiquette, remembering to unclip before you stop (DOH!) etc. But, why ride at 12 mph when you can easily do 18, right?
If someone could tell me how to legally prevent a rider (club member or not) from joining in on a group ride on public roads, hey, I'm all ears.
No, I'm not calling the police.
years and years ago that helped me so much. never really did group rides but learned how to be safe. a fair amount of riders with and without e bikes don't know how to ride safely or properly. e bikes get people people on bikes but it does not make them smarter for sure. but I bet most will get bored after awhile too.
throw them I na group ride like this where they cant speed. did this on our e tandem and almost never used the motor as it was so slow. 10,000 riders
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Old 02-24-22, 10:54 PM
  #46  
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As a bike club that does organized events on roads, I'm sure you guys have officers, liability insurances, bylaws and safety rules/. Well, if you don't have that stuff, I'm sorry but I thimk you should in the kind of lawsuit happy society we all live in,

What would you do with a guy on a regular bike who was fast, but clueless about safety, etc,

It's your own safety at stake. Someone has to tell this guy he can't ride.
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Old 02-25-22, 05:11 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Bald Paul View Post
If they still hang in, do you call the police? "Hey, officer, this guy riding a bike is riding with us riding bikes!" I'm sure SWAT will be dispatched right away.
Originally Posted by Tony P. View Post
In Connecticut, where I live the law defines third-degree stalking as recklessly causing another person to reasonably fear for his or her physical safety by willfully and repeatedly following or lying-in wait for that person. The offense is a class B misdemeanor, punishable by up to six months in prison, up to a $ 1,000 fine, or both. So, yes, you can certainly call the police if someone rides with you against your will and you're concerned for your safety.
Originally Posted by Bald Paul View Post
That has got to be the most ridiculously funny post I've ever read on this forum.
Wait, you're not serious, are you?
If someone could tell me how to legally prevent a rider (club member or not) from joining in on a group ride on public roads, hey, I'm all ears.
No, I'm not calling the police.
First off, I'm not the one who asked about the police; you did. Although you were obviously joking, I tried to point out calling the police was not as ridiculous as you thought.

If you want to know how to legally stop him, the answer is simple. A club is an organization. Its members decide how it functions and it can make whatever rules and other choices it adopts. So, step 1 is to change the group designation from just a mph range to include specific safety requirements. The ride is a club function and probably has someone in charge on behalf of the club. No rider would legally join you on a ride if they don't meet the club's safety requirements and (step 2) you can stop him legally just by telling him so on behalf of the club. If the rider doesn't get the message, the legal step 3 would be for an official of the club to send the member a letter explaining those requirements and that he failed to meet them. If that doesn't work, the next legal step (step 4) would be to notify him you intend to take formal legal action if he continues. That legal action would be getting (step 5) a restraining order. Finally, following you against your will and creating a dangerous situation is a crime and you can call the police (step 6).

But in reality, you're not going to do any of those things. All you're going to do is post here.

Last edited by Tony P.; 02-25-22 at 07:13 AM.
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Old 02-25-22, 05:19 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by Bald Paul View Post
If someone could tell me how to legally prevent a rider (club member or not) from joining in on a group ride on public roads, hey, I'm all ears.
It is true you can't legally stop him from riding on public roads. But the club can revoke his membership and let him know that he is no longer welcome. He would have to have problems beyond poor bike handling skills to want to be where he isn't wanted.
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Old 02-25-22, 06:08 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Chuck M View Post
It is true you can't legally stop him from riding on public roads. But the club can revoke his membership and let him know that he is no longer welcome. He would have to have problems beyond poor bike handling skills to want to be where he isn't wanted.
Sorry but I don't agree fully. While anyone can ride on public roads, he doesn't have the right to join with or follow riders against their will. This is no different from saying you can't stop someone from walking next to you after you try to avoid them. I certainly agree, though, that stating their displeasure should be sufficient.
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Old 02-25-22, 07:31 AM
  #50  
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Here's the plan. He's going to be taken aside and bluntly told his bike handling isn't up to par with the group. But, since he doesn't want to ride with the stigma of being slow, some of the B riders have offered to take him out on the equivalent of a Beginners ride at a higher speed, one in front, one behind. If his handling doesn't improve, he's going to be politely but firmly asked not to enter the pacelines, but he will be able to ride behind the group if he chooses.
If that doesn't work, breaking his kneecaps with floor pumps is next. (JUST KIDDING!)
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