Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Electric Bikes
Reload this Page >

Just because you can doesn't mean you should

Notices
Electric Bikes Here's a place to discuss ebikes, from home grown to high-tech.

Just because you can doesn't mean you should

Old 02-23-22, 08:18 AM
  #1  
Bald Paul
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Bald Paul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Upstate SC
Posts: 852
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
Liked 743 Times in 351 Posts
Just because you can doesn't mean you should

Situation: new, older rider shows up to a club ride on his new e-bike and joins in on a B group ride (17-19 MPH) The B group likes to ride in a tight, double rotating paceline (riding two abreast is legal here) but this person has ZERO bike handling skills. He is all over the road, cannot hold a line, overlaps wheels, gaps, etc. He insists on riding with the B group, because his bike allows him to go that fast. It's gotten to the point where no one wants to ride with him. Suggestions that he join the D group (consisting of newer riders, or more experienced riders who just like to ride more casually) to gain some skills fall on deaf ears because he 'bought this bike so he didn't have to ride slow' and he insists on 'tagging along' with the faster group.
The club does not want to ban e-bikes on club rides. How would you handle this?
Bald Paul is offline  
Old 02-23-22, 08:27 AM
  #2  
Tony P.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 270
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 483 Post(s)
Liked 279 Times in 160 Posts
I don't think your issue relates to e-bikes but, rather, this particular rider. It seems to me you have two choices: either change the rules or let him ride. By change the rules, though, I mean to require specific experience or skills, not just a speed range. BTW, having an unskilled rider in a group is a danger to everyone, particularly where there's traffic.

Last edited by Tony P.; 02-23-22 at 08:30 AM.
Tony P. is offline  
Likes For Tony P.:
Old 02-23-22, 08:30 AM
  #3  
cb400bill
Forum Moderator
 
cb400bill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Kalamazoo MI
Posts: 20,369

Bikes: Fuji SL2.1 Carbon Di2 Cannondale Synapse Alloy 4 Trek Checkpoint ALR gravel Viscount Aerospace Pro Schwinn Paramount PDG 5

Mentioned: 51 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2736 Post(s)
Liked 4,371 Times in 2,611 Posts
When our group used to do paceline rides, a newbie was asked to stay behind the group for a few rides. That allowed them to ride the same speed as the group, observe how a paceline works, and they would eventually take part in the paceline.
__________________
Originally Posted by Retro Grouch View Post
Fenders protect you from tire splatter. Mudguards protect you from tyre splatter.







cb400bill is offline  
Old 02-23-22, 08:46 AM
  #4  
FBOATSB 
Senior Member
 
FBOATSB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Central Indiana
Posts: 2,082

Bikes: Old Stuff

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 832 Post(s)
Liked 367 Times in 256 Posts
You're just not yelling at him enough.
We're going to yell at you.
FBOATSB is offline  
Old 02-23-22, 09:14 AM
  #5  
Bald Paul
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Bald Paul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Upstate SC
Posts: 852
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
Liked 743 Times in 351 Posts
Originally Posted by Tony P. View Post
I don't think your issue relates to e-bikes but, rather, this particular rider. It seems to me you have two choices: either change the rules or let him ride. By change the rules, though, I mean to require specific experience or skills, not just a speed range. BTW, having an unskilled rider in a group is a danger to everyone, particularly where there's traffic.
Originally Posted by cb400bill View Post
When our group used to do paceline rides, a newbie was asked to stay behind the group for a few rides. That allowed them to ride the same speed as the group, observe how a paceline works, and they would eventually take part in the paceline.
Originally Posted by FBOATSB View Post
You're just not yelling at him enough.
We're going to yell at you.
So far, these suggestions haven't worked with him.
Hmmmmm.

Bald Paul is offline  
Likes For Bald Paul:
Old 02-23-22, 09:15 AM
  #6  
Moe Zhoost
Half way there
 
Moe Zhoost's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 2,656

Bikes: Many, and the list changes frequently

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 882 Post(s)
Liked 681 Times in 411 Posts
Just put him out front and let him stay there.

Yeah, I know the argument would be that he doesn't keep a steady pace. I reckon that the courteous thing to do is to pair him up with a patient rider who could coach him.
Moe Zhoost is offline  
Likes For Moe Zhoost:
Old 02-23-22, 10:45 AM
  #7  
gpburdell
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Georgia
Posts: 630
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 219 Post(s)
Liked 184 Times in 121 Posts
From your description you have a safety issue due to this guy's inexperience with group riding.

Someone is going to need to have a blunt conversation with him. Make it clear he's welcome to ride if he can do so without endangering others, and outline exactly what that means. If he won't follow that, then he's not welcome. If he then still jumps into the group perhaps whomever is behind him drops back splitting the group into two and giving some space.

Hopefully he gets the message before someone gets hurt.
gpburdell is offline  
Likes For gpburdell:
Old 02-23-22, 11:39 AM
  #8  
grizzly59
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 711
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 281 Post(s)
Liked 262 Times in 164 Posts
What are you going to say when someone gets hurt because nobody would tell him no?
grizzly59 is offline  
Likes For grizzly59:
Old 02-23-22, 12:19 PM
  #9  
veganbikes
Clark W. Griswold
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: ,location, location
Posts: 9,875

Bikes: Foundry Chilkoot Ti W/Ultegra Di2, Salsa Timberjack Ti, Cinelli Mash Work RandoCross Fun Time Machine, 1x9 XT Parts Hybrid, Co-Motion Cascadia, Specialized Langster, Phil Wood Apple VeloXS Frame (w/DA 7400), R+M Supercharger2 Rohloff, Habanero Ti 26

Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2846 Post(s)
Liked 2,021 Times in 1,344 Posts
A sample script which you may have already used in some form:
We understand you have a bike so you can go at the same pace but that is not the issue it is the way you handle your bike. You are putting everyone in this group at risk and we need you to follow these simple rules and practice your bike handling skills or we cannot have you riding with us. We have this ride labeled as such because it is for more advanced bike handlers who can also go at this pace but also hold a line and not cause unsafe situations. If you would like to come on this next ride we ask that you sit at the back and observe how things are done if you are unable to do that you might find others to ride with as we cannot put ourselves at risk because of you. We all have families and friends and we would like to make it back to them we ride in a manner that requires a good bit of skill to stay tight without potentially causing crashes and without those skills you are making it harder for us to make it back safely.
veganbikes is offline  
Old 02-23-22, 01:11 PM
  #10  
2old
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: socal
Posts: 3,422
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 678 Post(s)
Liked 466 Times in 355 Posts
I'm flabbergasted you'd let him ride more than 10 feet with the group when his "skills" were on view. I rode with a local group a few times and there were rules for newcomers and a strict regimen before they could join the main body. I'm surprised the seasoned riders didn't tell him they wouldn't ride with him until his skills improved.
2old is offline  
Likes For 2old:
Old 02-23-22, 02:52 PM
  #11  
Bald Paul
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Bald Paul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Upstate SC
Posts: 852
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
Liked 743 Times in 351 Posts
Originally Posted by 2old View Post
I'm flabbergasted you'd let him ride more than 10 feet with the group when his "skills" were on view. I rode with a local group a few times and there were rules for newcomers and a strict regimen before they could join the main body. I'm surprised the seasoned riders didn't tell him they wouldn't ride with him until his skills improved.
Unfortunately, it's getting to that point. But, that really affects the B riders - they can't enjoy a ride without worrying that this clown will cause a major crash.
I suggested that the ride start time be posted 30 minutes after the actual start time. Everyone will be gone when he shows up.
Bald Paul is offline  
Likes For Bald Paul:
Old 02-23-22, 02:57 PM
  #12  
2old
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: socal
Posts: 3,422
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 678 Post(s)
Liked 466 Times in 355 Posts
Originally Posted by Bald Paul View Post
Unfortunately, it's getting to that point. But, that really affects the B riders - they can't enjoy a ride without worrying that this clown will cause a major crash.
I suggested that the ride start time be posted 30 minutes after the actual start time. Everyone will be gone when he shows up.
Road cycling has enough challenges; no need to add a clown.
2old is offline  
Likes For 2old:
Old 02-23-22, 03:12 PM
  #13  
79pmooney
A Roadie Forever
 
79pmooney's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 10,408

Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder

Mentioned: 111 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3397 Post(s)
Liked 2,152 Times in 1,398 Posts
For me this would be really simple. I'd make it clear to him and the group that I value my safety and am not riding if he does. Perhaps ask the others if others feel the same.
79pmooney is offline  
Likes For 79pmooney:
Old 02-23-22, 06:54 PM
  #14  
Tony P.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2015
Posts: 270
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 483 Post(s)
Liked 279 Times in 160 Posts
Originally Posted by Bald Paul View Post
I suggested that the ride start time be posted 30 minutes after the actual start time. Everyone will be gone when he shows up.
Perhaps the B group can offer to pay him not to join them. Or better still, just give him your bikes. And cars. And homes. No one has a right to ride with you. If you guys would rather sneak out than tell him so the group has bigger issues than an old guy (like me) on an e-bike.
Tony P. is offline  
Old 02-23-22, 07:38 PM
  #15  
Chuck M 
Butted Hi-Tensile
 
Chuck M's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 977

Bikes: Hi-Ten bike boomers, a Trek Domane and some projects

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 320 Post(s)
Liked 778 Times in 400 Posts
I have zero experience with group rides. If I were to give it a go with a group, I would appreciate someone explaining patiently to me how the groups work as well as the skills, techniques, manners and other ins and outs of group riding. I imagine I would also want to start out in one of the slower groups to learn these ropes. I assume there is a lead member responsible for making sure that new riders understand this. If not, IMHO, someone needs to take the lead to explain to this person how things are expected to work. If he is galled by this, kindly ask him to leave.
__________________
"It is the unknown around the corner that turns my wheels." -- Heinz Stücke

Chuck M is offline  
Likes For Chuck M:
Old 02-23-22, 08:19 PM
  #16  
veganbikes
Clark W. Griswold
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: ,location, location
Posts: 9,875

Bikes: Foundry Chilkoot Ti W/Ultegra Di2, Salsa Timberjack Ti, Cinelli Mash Work RandoCross Fun Time Machine, 1x9 XT Parts Hybrid, Co-Motion Cascadia, Specialized Langster, Phil Wood Apple VeloXS Frame (w/DA 7400), R+M Supercharger2 Rohloff, Habanero Ti 26

Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2846 Post(s)
Liked 2,021 Times in 1,344 Posts
Originally Posted by Chuck M View Post
I have zero experience with group rides. If I were to give it a go with a group, I would appreciate someone explaining patiently to me how the groups work as well as the skills, techniques, manners and other ins and outs of group riding. I imagine I would also want to start out in one of the slower groups to learn these ropes. I assume there is a lead member responsible for making sure that new riders understand this. If not, IMHO, someone needs to take the lead to explain to this person how things are expected to work. If he is galled by this, kindly ask him to leave.
See you have a brain in your head that you use...this guys seems to have lost his. Most people should think like that and say "well I should learn what to do before I jump in the deep end." You gotta crawl before you walk. He seems like he read the speed and is like I can go that speed now why should I need to do anything else and that is silly.

Pacelines are no joke and getting involved with one without knowing what to do can be extremely dangerous having been in situations where people are quite close to my wheel who aren't great bike handlers is always kind of scary as I myself am not the greatest of bike handlers. You gotta know the folks and know how they ride or things could get ugly. This is a big reason why I don't do a ton of more serious group rides. I like the party pace and to relax a little.
veganbikes is offline  
Likes For veganbikes:
Old 02-24-22, 07:29 AM
  #17  
Bald Paul
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Bald Paul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Upstate SC
Posts: 852
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
Liked 743 Times in 351 Posts
Originally Posted by Tony P. View Post
Perhaps the B group can offer to pay him not to join them. Or better still, just give him your bikes. And cars. And homes. No one has a right to ride with you. If you guys would rather sneak out than tell him so the group has bigger issues than an old guy (like me) on an e-bike.
I highlighted that statement. How do you propose to tell someone they have no right to ride with members of a club they have joined? For that matter, how could you tell a non-club member that you come up to along the road that they aren't allowed to jump in? You can tell them it's a club only ride, and due to insurance they would not be covered should they crash and be injured. The idea being, of course, that they don't cause the crash that injures any club members. If they still hang in, do you call the police? "Hey, officer, this guy riding a bike is riding with us riding bikes!" I'm sure SWAT will be dispatched right away.

For the record, I'm a C level rider (barely.) In my younger days I was much faster and participated in road racing and criteriums, so I know how to behave in a paceline, and can handle my bike elbow to elbow in a corner. Technically, I could arrive at a club ride and jump in with the A level riders, but I don't, because I know I would be dropped after a short time. I guess I could get an e-bike so I wouldn't be dropped, but why bother? At my current age (70) I'm happy cruising along with the Cs (sometimes the Ds, just to help out or ride sweep) conversing, enjoying the scenery and ride experience. I "dropped" my speed ego long ago.

The group has no issues with an 'old guy on an e-bike' riding with a group faster than his level of fitness IF he has the skills to do so. There is no legal way (that I'm aware of) to tell someone they can't ride with you, and having an entire group of riders not ride to avoid being taken out by one bad rider on his e-bike isn't really an option.
Bald Paul is offline  
Old 02-24-22, 08:29 AM
  #18  
rumrunn6
Senior Member
 
rumrunn6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 25 miles northwest of Boston
Posts: 27,320

Bikes: Bottecchia Sprint, GT Timberline 29r, Trek FX Alpha 7.0

Mentioned: 107 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4536 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times in 1,481 Posts
really surprised e-bikes are allowed in a group ride like this
rumrunn6 is offline  
Old 02-24-22, 08:40 AM
  #19  
gpburdell
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Georgia
Posts: 630
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 219 Post(s)
Liked 184 Times in 121 Posts
Originally Posted by Bald Paul View Post
The group has no issues with an 'old guy on an e-bike' riding with a group faster than his level of fitness IF he has the skills to do so. There is no legal way (that I'm aware of) to tell someone they can't ride with you, and having an entire group of riders not ride to avoid being taken out by one bad rider on his e-bike isn't really an option.
You bring up a conundrum. On one hand you (and the others) have every right to tell someone you don't want them riding with you until they can do so safely. Yet on the other hand I'm unsure of what recourse you have if the individual ignores that and continues to ride along with the group if their actions don't rise to the level of harassment.

Yes, It is impolite for the guy to ignore your (firm/clear) request that he ride with a different group (or ride at the tail) until he gains sufficient experience.

The goal though is to do what you can to keep your group safe. Assuming your concerns about safety have been clearly & firmly brought to his attention, I'm not sure what you can do other than adjust the group riding. Maybe everyone behind him drops back to allow for reaction time. Maybe change the B group pace/structure/time/place for a while. Maybe everyone just pulls over and tells him to go on ahead, making it as awkward for him as you can.

None are good options, and it's unfortunate you may need to do something like this for your members safety, but I'd also hate to have to call a friend's spouse to the hospital due to his inexperience.
gpburdell is offline  
Likes For gpburdell:
Old 02-24-22, 08:44 AM
  #20  
gpburdell
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2015
Location: Georgia
Posts: 630
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 219 Post(s)
Liked 184 Times in 121 Posts
Originally Posted by rumrunn6 View Post
really surprised e-bikes are allowed in a group ride like this
Seems the issue isn't the nature of the bike but the inexperience/inability of the rider.

But for sake of discussion, let's say a riding group disallows ebikes. Someone shows up on one. What can the group do about it?
gpburdell is offline  
Likes For gpburdell:
Old 02-24-22, 08:46 AM
  #21  
prj71
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: North Central Wisconsin
Posts: 3,650
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2167 Post(s)
Liked 681 Times in 455 Posts
I'm not sure why someone just doesn't tell him..."We don't want you riding with our group until your skills improve and you become a better rider"

Not sure why people these days are scared of hurting someones feelings. Just be blunt and tell him how it is. He should get the hint.

In our groups...Someone would have done that already and would also be told e-bikes aren't allowed.
prj71 is offline  
Likes For prj71:
Old 02-24-22, 09:32 AM
  #22  
FBOATSB 
Senior Member
 
FBOATSB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Central Indiana
Posts: 2,082

Bikes: Old Stuff

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 832 Post(s)
Liked 367 Times in 256 Posts
Just announce a new e bike category of club rides and put him in charge of it.
Your club will probably grow by leaps and bounds.
FBOATSB is offline  
Old 02-24-22, 10:21 AM
  #23  
FBOATSB 
Senior Member
 
FBOATSB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: Central Indiana
Posts: 2,082

Bikes: Old Stuff

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 832 Post(s)
Liked 367 Times in 256 Posts
On a serious note, I just shot an email to a local to me e bike dealer inquiring about group rides for e bikes.
FBOATSB is offline  
Likes For FBOATSB:
Old 02-24-22, 10:35 AM
  #24  
Bald Paul
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Bald Paul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Upstate SC
Posts: 852
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 392 Post(s)
Liked 743 Times in 351 Posts
Originally Posted by gpburdell View Post
But for sake of discussion, let's say a riding group disallows ebikes. Someone shows up on one. What can the group do about it?
Hope for the best?

Bald Paul is offline  
Likes For Bald Paul:
Old 02-24-22, 10:56 AM
  #25  
rumrunn6
Senior Member
 
rumrunn6's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: 25 miles northwest of Boston
Posts: 27,320

Bikes: Bottecchia Sprint, GT Timberline 29r, Trek FX Alpha 7.0

Mentioned: 107 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4536 Post(s)
Liked 2,169 Times in 1,481 Posts
Originally Posted by FBOATSB View Post
On a serious note, I just shot an email to a local to me e bike dealer inquiring about group rides for e bikes.
imagine that! a bunch of ebikes doing their own 25-30mph paceline?!
rumrunn6 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.