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Percentage Effort E-Bike vs Standard Bike

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Percentage Effort E-Bike vs Standard Bike

Old 03-05-22, 12:03 PM
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Sportdog
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Percentage Effort E-Bike vs Standard Bike

I know there is no "etched in stone" answer to this but can anyone hazard a qualified guess as to the mechanical/effort advantage of an E-Bike over a conventional hybrid style bike?

I have zero knowledge of how E-Bikes work.
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Old 03-05-22, 12:46 PM
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The most common ebike is referred to as a "pedal assist" bike. As you pedal the system senses your pedal input and adds electric assistance to your pedaling effort. The bike system typically has several levels of assistance that you can select. These will vary by manufacturer, but one article I read stated that the amount of added assistance varies from 60% of your pedal effort to 300%. This enables the rider to select the amount of assistance needed for terrain and riding conditions. There is usually a maximum speed limit programmed into the system - laws on this vary according to location.

You can find more info on the web - a good place to start would be the Bosch ebike web site.

This YouTube video may also help:

Last edited by MNebiker; 03-05-22 at 01:15 PM.
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Old 03-05-22, 01:23 PM
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yes with bosch the new motors can do 350% ands if you spend money on a nyon you can adjust it. with a hub drive and cadence sensor its more about the speed you want to go. here is my settings.
with a torque sensing system How hard you peddle controls how much assistance you get.

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Old 03-05-22, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Sportdog View Post
I know there is no "etched in stone" answer to this but can anyone hazard a qualified guess as to the mechanical/effort advantage of an E-Bike over a conventional hybrid style bike?

I have zero knowledge of how E-Bikes work.
I have a Bafang bbshd midrive installed on a bike with a cadence sensor. I don稚 think I知 ever putting out more than 20% of the effort required to move me on the road and off road up steep sections it痴 esentially a motorcycle and I知 using the throttle. I知 guessing bikes with torque sensors are more efficient.
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Old 03-05-22, 05:27 PM
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we have a old nyon on our bosch powered tandem and on the flats we cruise right at the motor cutoff 18.5 mph and use around 9 watts per mile
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Old 03-07-22, 07:55 AM
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Thank You for all the responses. I now have a better understanding.
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Old 03-07-22, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by MNebiker View Post
The most common ebike is referred to as a "pedal assist" bike. As you pedal the system senses your pedal input and adds electric assistance to your pedaling effort. The bike system typically has several levels of assistance that you can select. These will vary by manufacturer, but one article I read stated that the amount of added assistance varies from 60% of your pedal effort to 300%. This enables the rider to select the amount of assistance needed for terrain and riding conditions. There is usually a maximum speed limit programmed into the system - laws on this vary according to location.

You can find more info on the web - a good place to start would be the Bosch ebike web site.

This YouTube video may also help: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S00r7WVbz5k
Good info. Just a point of clarification for Sportdog - with pedal-assist ebikes the speed limiter is for the motor assist. Most, I don't believe, actually prevent you from going faster if you have a good hill and/or enuf of your own leg power.
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Old 03-07-22, 07:42 PM
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With my e-bikes there are three settings that can be activated while riding. I can use a smartphone app to set each of these settings to provide from 10% to 100% power assist. The Class III bikes provide motor assistance at speeds up to 28 mph which provides the most natural feel when riding. It is like getting a 15 mph tailwind as compared to the Class II that have a lot more power and are much heavier and more like a motorbike or electric scooter. Both types are fine but decide what type of experience you want before shopping for a bike.
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Old 03-07-22, 10:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Sportdog View Post
can anyone hazard a qualified guess as to the mechanical/effort advantage of an E-Bike over a conventional hybrid style bike?
Life is short.

You know you want one.

Don't let the haters get to you. They simply can't afford one.
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Old 03-09-22, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by mickjohn994 View Post
Ebikes are good and with the passage of time many people use these. e-bicycles offer the same great benefits as traditional bicycles including cost savings (no licensing or insurance required), improved well-being, and connection with community.
exactlyI used to struggle to ride my 18 mile commute because of heath and boardroom. 10 years later I ride every day and up to 250 miles a week. no way I would ride that much on a traditional bike.
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Old 03-09-22, 10:28 AM
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My Electra/Trek Townie Bosch motor has four settings. The ‘eco’ gives you a 70% boost. The ‘turbo’ gives you a 270% boost. And 2 in between.

More is not always better. The first time I used the ‘turbo’ setting on a sandy trail I was in for an interesting experience.

OTOH, ‘turbo’ is very nice for going into a 20 MPH South Florida wind.
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Old 03-09-22, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Sportdog View Post
I have zero knowledge of how E-Bikes work.
They come in several shades and flavors, influenced by local laws, and how creative/law-abiding the rider/builder is.
They can be throttle controlled, much like a motorcycle/scooter.
They can have a fractional setting, how much of available motor power they値l feed in.
They can have a torque sensor, usually in the bottom bracket, that feeds power in proportion to how hard the rider pedals. Usually with a couple of different throttle response settings.
Many require the pedals to be turning for the motor to engage.
There痴 usually a speed limiter that cuts power to the motor at a set speed. 25kmh is quite common.
There may be power limits to motor output in various degrees of compliance and enforcement.
Originally Posted by Sportdog View Post
I know there is no "etched in stone" answer to this but can anyone hazard a qualified guess as to the mechanical/effort advantage of an E-Bike over a conventional hybrid style bike?
That all depends on the ambition and intent of the rider.
Me, i like pedalling. I hit the same Max HR and the same cal/hour on my ebike as on my regular bike. I知 a bit faster taking off from stationary, and I can do pretty much all climbs on my commute at the cutoff speed of the motor.
When I put my mind to it, the only relief I get is that a set route is done a bit sooner.
OTOH, if I知 not in the mood, I can cruise at decent speed, high assist setting, without breaking a sweat.
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Old 03-15-22, 09:13 PM
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Many have commented on issues with Class I bikes where the motor is supposed to cut out at 20 mph but will actually do so at slower speeds. When trying to get to as a high a speed when approaching a hill the last thing I want is to feel like the bike has put the brakes on at 18 mph. The advantage of the Class III is that the cutn out is at 28 mph and with my Specialized Creo it is not at all disconcerting and I can pedal as I would on a non e-bike.

Hopefully the supply of Class III e-bikes will increase in coming months or years and the price will come down. I paid twice as much for my Specialized as I would have for a Yamaha but the Specialized was availble to actually buy.
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Old 03-15-22, 09:27 PM
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love the acceleration on my bosch mid drive. if I am feeling really good and I can put out 600 to 700 watts I can pop a wheelie with the acceleration just on the tour setting. its a little harder shifting fast enough with the mid drive as it can out pace you. when I rode a recumbent it was one pedal stroke shift one stroke shift and I would accelerate pretty well. but its maybe 1/2 a stroke on the mid drive. my new trek bike has 2.5" tires but with 25nm more torque but its nto as snappy as my other bike with the 1.5" tires. even with the extra torque.
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Old 03-15-22, 09:46 PM
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On my now older e-bike (Trek XM700+) with the Bosch system, I tend to operate it like another set of gears. Cadence slowing down due to a hill? Turn on, or bump up, the power assist. Going down? Bump down the assist, or turn it off. Overall, my average speed is faster, due to the assist. One article I read said that in limited testing, riders on e-bikes tended to burn 30% fewer calories over the same distance as compared to conventional bikes. But they tended to go much further. So it all roughly evens out in the end. I now go places and distances I never would have considered, and put more time in the saddle. I do find that by fall I use the power assist far less than I do in the spring...so I must be getting to some higher level of fitness...
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Old 03-16-22, 12:22 PM
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With my e-bike I use it with 30% max assist and this is all that I need to go up the hills and as I get in better shape I can use my smartphone to adjust the Eco power setting and Sport and Max assist settings. I started with Eco at 25% and Sport at 60% but now have Eco at 30% and Sport ad 50%.

What is giving me some difficulty is choosing a gear for the hills. With the power assistance of the motor I am using a higher gear and whereas in the past I might be using the 18T cog I am now using a 16T or 14T cog for the same hills. My rear cassette is 11-42T and it seem excessively wide and I am thinking about trying a 11-28 or similar range instead.
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Old 03-17-22, 04:48 AM
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I think the average force of a human rider is perhaps 50Nm with different people providing more or less power depending on their fitness, age etc. A hub motor might typically be around 30Nm but probably varies between 15-45Nm and a mid-drive motor might vary between 30-95Nm but the mid-drive delivers its power through the drivetrain so there are small amount of losses there but mid-drive also scales power through the gears so for example if you had a front chainring of 32T and a rear maximum cog of 48T and you had 95Nm at the crank you probably would have a peak Nm of maybe 130Nm but mid-drives peak higher than hubs. A Bosch mid-drive motor sold in the UK at 250W will peak at over 700W and I'm assuming the peak Nm is measured when power peaks over 700W.

If you are a person only capable of 30Nm then you can claim 95Nm is about 3x your power in reality so you have 4x the actual power for going up hills. For a hub motor you can see power would be much reduced but still very useful power that will get you up hills much easier just not as easy as a high power mid-drive bike.

I'm writing from a UK perspective where ebikes are legally limited to 250W but of course you get much more powerful hub or mid-drive motors that go well beyond 250W and deliver more power.
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Old 03-17-22, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Bonzo Banana View Post
I think the average force of a human rider is perhaps 50Nm with different people providing more or less power depending on their fitness, age etc. A hub motor might typically be around 30Nm but probably varies between 15-45Nm and a mid-drive motor might vary between 30-95Nm but the mid-drive delivers its power through the drivetrain so there are small amount of losses there but mid-drive also scales power through the gears so for example if you had a front chainring of 32T and a rear maximum cog of 48T and you had 95Nm at the crank you probably would have a peak Nm of maybe 130Nm but mid-drives peak higher than hubs. A Bosch mid-drive motor sold in the UK at 250W will peak at over 700W and I'm assuming the peak Nm is measured when power peaks over 700W.

If you are a person only capable of 30Nm then you can claim 95Nm is about 3x your power in reality so you have 4x the actual power for going up hills. For a hub motor you can see power would be much reduced but still very useful power that will get you up hills much easier just not as easy as a high power mid-drive bike.

I'm writing from a UK perspective where ebikes are legally limited to 250W but of course you get much more powerful hub or mid-drive motors that go well beyond 250W and deliver more power.
I should see how many nm I put out I can choose between watts and nm.
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Old 03-17-22, 03:05 PM
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Originally Posted by Calsun View Post
With my e-bikes there are three settings that can be activated while riding. I can use a smartphone app to set each of these settings to provide from 10% to 100% power assist. The Class III bikes provide motor assistance at speeds up to 28 mph which provides the most natural feel when riding. It is like getting a 15 mph tailwind as compared to the Class II that have a lot more power and are much heavier and more like a motorbike or electric scooter. Both types are fine but decide what type of experience you want before shopping for a bike.
And don't forget, there are Class 1 e-bikes, too. They provide assist up to 20 mph, and typically they're significantly lighter than Class 3 bikes. Their experience is much more like an unassisted road bicycle than a motorbike or electric scooter.
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Old 03-18-22, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by fooferdoggie View Post
I should see how many nm I put out I can choose between watts and nm.
I'm not sure how I can measure my Nm. I assume it will be all over the place high to low and you have to work out the average over a reasonable period of time which I guess is where 50Nm comes from as an average. I'm sure people can produce a lot more for a short period.
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Old 03-18-22, 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Bonzo Banana View Post
I'm not sure how I can measure my Nm. I assume it will be all over the place high to low and you have to work out the average over a reasonable period of time which I guess is where 50Nm comes from as an average. I'm sure people can produce a lot more for a short period.
my bosch shows foot pounds its about 39 average when I am feeling ok not great. it does give the watts.
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Old 03-21-22, 05:08 AM
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Originally Posted by fooferdoggie View Post
my bosch shows foot pounds its about 39 average when I am feeling ok not great. it does give the watts.
Looks like 39 foot pounds is 53Nm so you are pretty much mr average when it comes to your power. Is that 39 foot pounds related to the gear does it drop when you go into a high gear or is 39 the figure across all gears?

So you can now work out how much assistance the bike gives based on the motor's output at the crank and your gearing. You do lose about 2-3Nm through the chain for mid-drive motors.
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Old 03-21-22, 12:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Bonzo Banana View Post
Looks like 39 foot pounds is 53Nm so you are pretty much mr average when it comes to your power. Is that 39 foot pounds related to the gear does it drop when you go into a high gear or is 39 the figure across all gears?

So you can now work out how much assistance the bike gives based on the motor's output at the crank and your gearing. You do lose about 2-3Nm through the chain for mid-drive motors.
the 39nm is when I am feeling good. it varies a lot over the unevenness of the road. I shift all the time ti keep my cadence around 80rpms. my older bosch display shows how many watts the motor uses per mile. but thats on our bosch powered tandem. there we cruise at 18.5mph right where the motor is almost cutoff and use around 9 watts per mile. my watt output varies from day to day depending on how good I feel. anymore it is around 140 watts average now down from around 160 to 170
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Old 03-26-22, 05:22 PM
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this was the best ride I have on the new trek. I put almost 6 miles on it before I did this ride. so I got about 57 miles on the 620 watt battery. only 500 feet of climbing helped.
I rode in eco mode the whole ride too.




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Old 04-03-22, 01:21 PM
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Throttle ebike

Seems like everyone has a pedal assist ebike. I have a throttle only ebike, 34 mpg top speed on level three. 99% of the time I ride on level one which tops out at 21mph. I usually get up to 17 or so and hit the cruise button. I then assist the motor on the hills versus the other way around. Knees are shot, I suppose I should have them replaced, but am holding out as long as possible. Three to four miles is all I can do on my regular road bike. I live in the country and an ebike allows me to get to several nearby towns without the car.

Back to percentage of effort. I would guess I am putting out 10 to 20 percent of the energy.
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