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Growing pain for e-bikes.

Old 07-17-23, 09:44 AM
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No one speaks to the problem with the "Spandex Mafia" that speed past glaring at ebikes while riding & speeding 2 abreast like they own the freakin road. I constantly have to play chicken with these A**holes on the trails near my home who have no regard to basic bike riding road etiquette.
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Old 07-17-23, 10:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Sempervee
No one speaks to the problem with the "Spandex Mafia" that speed past glaring at ebikes while riding & speeding 2 abreast like they own the freakin road. I constantly have to play chicken with these A**holes on the trails near my home who have no regard to basic bike riding road etiquette.
Know your laws, bicyclists are well within their rights to take up public roads, even two abreast.
It's the general mindset that bicyclists don't belong on public roads that is wrong and in need of correction.
Just because someone decides to operate a vehicle that take up much of the road and get get by cyclist safely, doesn't make public roads theirs to own and have to endanger others.
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Old 07-17-23, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by cat0020
Know your laws, bicyclists are well within their rights to take up public roads, even two abreast.
It's the general mindset that bicyclists don't belong on public roads that is wrong and in need of correction.
Just because someone decides to operate a vehicle that take up much of the road and get get by cyclist safely, doesn't make public roads theirs to own and have to endanger others.
You are not clear or understand on what I was stating. I am not speaking of public roads that the often ******* spandex crowd but that on dedicated BIKE PATHS like the Chehallis western trail at at most is 10-12 feet wide and crowded sometimes with walkers, skaters, families on bikes and yes us ebikers are confronted with 2 abreast speeding skinny wheel high dollar light weight road cyclists who act like the path is primarily theirs and every other rider and walker is invading their domain. I am fed up with it and braced to engage at a moments notice and give no quarter to this type of rider.
Riding on the street is a different matter and I defend that. I myself ride in the street and often with the flow of traffic. No problem. I feel less safe on the dedicated bike and walk paths then on the street sometimes when it should be the opposite.

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Old 07-17-23, 11:24 AM
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There is a classist element to your complaint that assumes that people who ride a bike with narrow tires and wears a lycra shirt is rich and wasteful. I see people driving pickup trucks for which they paid more than $60,000 or large SUVs, all of which get less than 20 mpg as wasteful idiots. A bike path should tell even the stupid person that the path is for use by people on BIKES. Pedestrians with dogs or baby strollers can use sidewalks but bicyclists cannot and so the BIKE path is an alernative to riding on the streets that must be shared with distracted and often speeding motorists.

I see the mindset of many motorists that do not mind slowing down to get around a slow moving piece of farm equipment but mind a great deal being inconvenienced by bicyclists who the motorist believes have noi right to be on the road. Best example was ride with many dozens of bicyclists on a county road and the riders took up one lane of the 4 lane road. A woman in her car started honking the horn and driving in the far right lane and forced all the riders off the road. She could have used the left lane but she felt that only cars had a right to be on the road and wanted to demonstrate that to the bicyclists even if she risked killing them. It is that sense of entitlement that is so pervasive and at the source of so much evil in this country.
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Old 07-17-23, 11:31 AM
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Originally Posted by calsun
there is a classist element to your complaint that assumes that people who ride a bike with narrow tires and wears a lycra shirt is rich and wasteful. I see people driving pickup trucks for which they paid more than $60,000 or large suvs, all of which get less than 20 mpg as wasteful idiots. A bike path should tell even the stupid person that the path is for use by people on bikes. Pedestrians with dogs or baby strollers can use sidewalks but bicyclists cannot and so the bike path is an alernative to riding on the streets that must be shared with distracted and often speeding motorists.

I see the mindset of many motorists that do not mind slowing down to get around a slow moving piece of farm equipment but mind a great deal being inconvenienced by bicyclists who the motorist believes have noi right to be on the road. Best example was ride with many dozens of bicyclists on a county road and the riders took up one lane of the 4 lane road. A woman in her car started honking the horn and driving in the far right lane and forced all the riders off the road. She could have used the left lane but she felt that only cars had a right to be on the road and wanted to demonstrate that to the bicyclists even if she risked killing them. It is that sense of entitlement that is so pervasive and at the source of so much evil in this country.
did not obviously read and have comprehension of what i said.

Last edited by cb400bill; 07-20-23 at 08:59 AM.
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Old 07-17-23, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by linberl
I am going to disagree with you. Even if a cyclist is going 10 mph, if a pedestrian suddenly walks in front of them, it's not the cyclist's fault but that's what will be said. If a kid breaks lose from a parent and runs in front of a cyclist going 8mph, it's still going to be bad, but not the cyclist's fault. If a dog (or a retractable leash) get in the way of a cyclist going 8mph, it's going to cause an accident. How do I know - they have all happened to me on our local pathway where pedestrians walk on the right side, left side and in the middle and then change without looking behind them at all AND a 4 year old wasn't supervised adequately by a parent and ran right in front of my bike and I had to lay it down to avoid hitting the kid AND I was nearly decapitated by a retractable cable leash stretched across the path with the owner on one side and his dog all the way on the other. My point - I was riding an e-assist at the time at appropriate speeds for the conditions, but even then inattentive or irresponsible pedestrians can cause accidents. So NO, it's not the bikes that create the problem on SHARED paths. Part of the problem is the pedestrian, part is cyclists who go too fast. Where I live the law regarding shared paths says that the pedestrians has the same obligation to behave safely and alertly as cyclists.
When you run into problems on such paths, you're riding too fast for the conditions.

Repeating myself, for all the good it will do:

The problem is not pedestrians - the problem is the difference in speed between bikes and pedestrians. If you guys happened to be pedestrians and no bike riders, you'd be whining about those damn bike riders that are causing all the problems. And you'd be right.

And people posting here: please stop calling them "bike paths." They're multi-use paths.
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Old 07-17-23, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Trakhak
When you run into problems on such paths, you're riding too fast for the conditions.

Repeating myself, for all the good it will do:

The problem is not pedestrians - the problem is the difference in speed between bikes and pedestrians. If you guys happened to be pedestrians and no bike riders, you'd be whining about those damn bike riders that are causing all the problems. And you'd be right.

And people posting here: please stop calling them "bike paths." They're multi-use paths.
I often am a pedestrian on our paths and a slow one as I use a walker! However, that doesn't change the fact that on my paths I see people walking in the bike lanes when there is a designated pedestrian lane nearby. It is illegal under our Veh Code to walk in a bike lane, but they do it anyway. and I see pedestrians walking all in the same direction on both sides of the path and in the middle - leaving very little room for a bike to pass and then they complain we passed too closely. Sure, there are some cyclists who need to slow down but it is NOT all the cyclist's responsibility. In fact, the law in our Veh Code regarding multiuse paths clearly states that pedestrians have the EXACT SAME obligation to behave in a safe and alert manner as cyclists do. But many pedestrians walk around as if they own the path and have unmitigated right of way - which they do NOT. Sharing the path means pedestrians are supposed to be listening for bells, looking around before the veer from a straight line, etc. If you want cyclists to be considerate, then pedestrians need to also be considerate. A lot of the close calls I see on the path when I am out walking are the result of pedestrians being oblivious or walking in the bike lane. People walking need to pay attention, not just cyclists. If you aren't walking in the bike lane, then cyclist speed is not an issue.
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Old 07-17-23, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Sempervee
You are not clear or understand on what I was stating. I am not speaking of public roads that the often ******* spandex crowd but that on dedicated BIKE PATHS like the Chehallis western trail at at most is 10-12 feet wide and crowded sometimes with walkers, skaters, families on bikes and yes us ebikers are confronted with 2 abreast speeding skinny wheel high dollar light weight road cyclists who act like the path is primarily theirs and every other rider and walker is invading their domain. I am fed up with it and braced to engage at a moments notice and give no quarter to this type of rider.
Riding on the street is a different matter and I defend that. I myself ride in the street and often with the flow of traffic. No problem. I feel less safe on the dedicated bike and walk paths then on the street sometimes when it should be the opposite.
Your failure to specify BIKE PATHS in your original post is not me being unclear nor understanding your post.

The "mob mentality" when any group gathers and behaves poorly is not limited to cyclists who wear spandex.
What exactly do you expect to accomplish by "give no quarter" to those group of riders?

In my experience, BIKE PATHS are designated for bicycle or ebike usage, not pedestrian. More than often pedestrians walk on the designated BIKE PATH, have their faces buried in their cell phones and not paying attention to where they are walking.
MULTI-USE PATHS are not the same as BIKE PATH, generally I use bell to warn other path users I encounter each time I get close to make them aware of my presence as a cyclist.
I don't participate pace line activity on MULTI-USE PATHS, even when it is not crowded.
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Old 07-17-23, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Sempervee
No one speaks to the problem with the "Spandex Mafia" that speed past glaring at ebikes while riding & speeding 2 abreast like they own the freakin road. ...
No one?

There are endless threads on bike forums complaining about those terrible riders in spandex.
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Old 07-18-23, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by linberl
I often am a pedestrian on our paths and a slow one as I use a walker! However, that doesn't change the fact that on my paths I see people walking in the bike lanes when there is a designated pedestrian lane nearby. It is illegal under our Veh Code to walk in a bike lane, but they do it anyway. and I see pedestrians walking all in the same direction on both sides of the path and in the middle - leaving very little room for a bike to pass and then they complain we passed too closely. Sure, there are some cyclists who need to slow down but it is NOT all the cyclist's responsibility. In fact, the law in our Veh Code regarding multiuse paths clearly states that pedestrians have the EXACT SAME obligation to behave in a safe and alert manner as cyclists do. But many pedestrians walk around as if they own the path and have unmitigated right of way - which they do NOT. Sharing the path means pedestrians are supposed to be listening for bells, looking around before the veer from a straight line, etc. If you want cyclists to be considerate, then pedestrians need to also be considerate. A lot of the close calls I see on the path when I am out walking are the result of pedestrians being oblivious or walking in the bike lane. People walking need to pay attention, not just cyclists. If you aren't walking in the bike lane, then cyclist speed is not an issue.
I could not agree more. Walkers, whether alone or with children or animals, have the same responsibility as bicyclists in preventing confrontations. Fortunately in socal there are many BIKE PATHS (because that's what they're named) that are so lightly used it's not a problem. There are many popular ones too, which I usually eschew.
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Old 07-18-23, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by 2old
I could not agree more. Walkers, whether alone or with children or animals, have the same responsibility as bicyclists in preventing confrontations. Fortunately in socal there are many BIKE PATHS (because that's what they're named) that are so lightly used it's not a problem. There are many popular ones too, which I usually eschew.
Our paths are all multi-use, but some sections have lines drawn designating bike lanes and pedestrian sections. Many pedestrians think it's just fine to walk in the designated bike lane, or to walk as a group blocking the entire path! I'd say about half the pedestrians make an effort to be aware and considerate, probably about the same as cyclists. The other half of each group make is really annoying for the considerate ones.
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Old 07-18-23, 09:38 AM
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It's probably the same everywhere, but more acute on crowded ones. There's one path I used to ride occasionally where a group of hikers purposely tried to block bicyclists; fortunately there was an adjacent one (one was dirt, one concrete) to circumvent them.
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Old 07-18-23, 01:48 PM
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There's plenty of blame to go around. One common theme I see is a feeling of entitlement, which is sometimes legally correct and sometimes incorrect.
  • Some cyclists feel entitled to go fast on multi-use paths, (MUPs) thinking they're bike paths. They're usually wrong. There are VERY few dedicated bike paths in the USA, from what I've seen.
  • Cyclists feel entitled to "take a lane" on public roads. Sometimes this is true, sometimes not.
  • eBikers feel entitled to use MUPs, no matter how fast they're going
  • Hikers feel entitled to take the entire width of a MUP, even though it will block cyclists, runners, eBikers and skaters
The common problem to me is ignorant entitlement. It's part of American culture now and it's not limited to any kind of biking.
I'm a photography hobbyist, and I like the street photography genre. Often, someone in public, with no reasonable expectation of privacy will get angry for having been photographed. They feel like they're legally entitled to more than they are. The only time they're entitled to anything is if the photographer will sell the images; then it requires a model release to be signed.

I think Wisconsin has done a pretty good job of making the laws clear; they even provide some illustrations for the illiterate or lazy1 → https://wisconsindot.gov/pages/safet...ike/rules.aspx

If motorists were aware of these laws, they would lose some of their sense of entitlement. If all cyclists, pedestrians and eBikers were aware, that would help too.

It all comes down to ignorance and feelings of entitlement.

What complicates it even more though is that a person can be doing the right thing and still get hurt. The offending party will be at fault, but will not undo the damage.
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Old 07-18-23, 02:55 PM
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I don't think you can blame those who follow the law or rules of the road, nor is it entitlement when you follow the rule of law.
Sometimes, there is a difference between doing the right thing and following the law; sometimes the right thing may not be legal.
Entitlement sums up most conflicts in the world through history, we know plenty of wrong things were legal at one point or another.
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Old 07-18-23, 07:40 PM
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My answer to the 'problem' is:
e-bicycle motors shut off at ~15mph, no exceptions.
e-motorcycles, motors strong enough to equal city traffic speeds = go get a motorcycle license, and stay off bicycle paths, lanes and MUPs.

edit:
I continue to be flabbergasted at owners who are so proud their "bicycles" go 25, 35, 45+mph while never, ever having to turn a pedal. Who the heck do they think they are kidding by calling it a bicycle? Just stupid logic = a bicycle you never pedal. Yeah, right! It's a motorcycle with pedals, license it.

Regulating "public compliance" is harder, less effective and more controversial than regulating the manufacturers. Never trust people to act responsibly. Or intelligently.


not sure what this is?, except pretty. Italian would be my guess, motorcycles can be sexy not just heavy/beefy/loud.
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Old 07-18-23, 08:21 PM
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The only e-bikes I've seen in real life that go too fast for MUPs are class 3 and they aren't legal on most MUPS anyway. Class 1 and 2 are capped at 20mph. A fit adult rider can go 20mph on a traditional bike without much difficulty. I got my first ebike years ago to be able to ride with my adult son - he still left me in the dust, lol. These days I am passed constantly by road bike riders, who pass me like I am standing still. It has nothing to do with the motor and everything to do with the speed, regardless of how it is obtained. Also, why do you care if someone is pedaling or not? Whether they choose to get exercise or just use an ebike for transportation rather than pollute the planet and wear down the roads with a car is no concern of yours - as long as they stay within the legal speed limits on the MUP. Check your value judgments. I'd much rather see more ebikes (obeying path speed limits) with people not pedaling than cars on the road.
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Old 07-19-23, 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by linberl
A fit adult rider can go 20mph on a traditional bike without much difficulty.
An experienced road rider can do that. The percentage of adults who could do that without motorized assistance is quite small.
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Old 07-19-23, 09:00 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Wildwood
My answer to the 'problem' is:
e-bicycle motors shut off at ~15mph, no exceptions.
e-motorcycles, motors strong enough to equal city traffic speeds = go get a motorcycle license, and stay off bicycle paths, lanes and MUPs.

edit:
I continue to be flabbergasted at owners who are so proud their "bicycles" go 25, 35, 45+mph while never, ever having to turn a pedal. Who the heck do they think they are kidding by calling it a bicycle? Just stupid logic = a bicycle you never pedal. Yeah, right! It's a motorcycle with pedals, license it.

Regulating "public compliance" is harder, less effective and more controversial than regulating the manufacturers. Never trust people to act responsibly. Or intelligently.


not sure what this is?, except pretty. Italian would be my guess, motorcycles can be sexy not just heavy/beefy/loud.
Wow, you're pretty anxious to send other folks' money to the government for nothing in return, aren't you? And to reduce our speed limit to Euro levels.

I'm thinking of my city now as I type this. We have designated bike lanes near the gutters. They're not MUPs. They're legal for Class 3 eBikes. They're on the sides of roads with speed limits ranging from 30 to 50 mph. Why wouldn't a Class 3 (28 mph) eBike be OK here? Obviously the eBikers wouldn't run over mBikers.

Also, what's wrong with a Class 3 eBike ridden on a MUP, but at speeds safe for conditions? e.g. if no one is around, and visibility and traction are good, up to 28 mph. When it's clogged with families on foot and phone zombies, 5 mph. I ride my Class 3 eBike on MUPs in my town here all the time. No one complains, as I'm always going at an appropriate speed for conditions. I also ride it in the bike lanes or in the side of a regular lane at up to 32 mph.

What *I* resent is people riding ANY eBike in an irresponsible way.

If your answer is that some people will not do the right thing, we should get to the root of THAT problem. Lack of social control in upbringing and lack of enforcement. One drastic example of this is in Switzerland, almost every home has an assault rifle and ammo for their militiamen. Shooting (biathalon with skiing) is their national sport. They have tight social control and upbringing. With all the mass shootings, this level of liberty is obviously not working here. It's not the guns, it's the people. (not all people, but enough...)

Bear with me before you lock the thread, mods.

The same thing is slowly happening with eBikes. We started out with all this freedom and are ruining it. YouTubers are blowing through stoplights (incriminating themselves publicly!)


Originally Posted by linberl
The only e-bikes I've seen in real life that go too fast for MUPs are class 3 and they aren't legal on most MUPS anyway. Class 1 and 2 are capped at 20mph. A fit adult rider can go 20mph on a traditional bike without much difficulty. I got my first ebike years ago to be able to ride with my adult son - he still left me in the dust, lol. These days I am passed constantly by road bike riders, who pass me like I am standing still. It has nothing to do with the motor and everything to do with the speed, regardless of how it is obtained. Also, why do you care if someone is pedaling or not? Whether they choose to get exercise or just use an ebike for transportation rather than pollute the planet and wear down the roads with a car is no concern of yours - as long as they stay within the legal speed limits on the MUP. Check your value judgments. I'd much rather see more ebikes (obeying path speed limits) with people not pedaling than cars on the road.
↑ 100%

Originally Posted by jon c.
An experienced road rider can do that. The percentage of adults who could do that without motorized assistance is quite small.
I'm a beginner level road cyclist. I went on my first faster club ride the other night. Average speed over 27 miles of rolling hills was 16.7 mph. We were over 20 mph quite frequently. Climbing smaller hills at over 15 mph. Top speed was around 30. The fit guys were even faster. I guess the difference from a safety standpoint is that an irresponsible person can do more damage with a 100 lb. eBike going 30 mph than a 20 lb. mBike, and any old fool can go 30 on a 100 lb. eBike. So the stats are coming to the attention of police and government.
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Old 07-19-23, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by jon c.
An experienced road rider can do that. The percentage of adults who could do that without motorized assistance is quite small.
Maybe if you live where people are out of shape, but most of the riders on my MUP pass me easily even when I crank it up to 15mph on the empty parts. That's women, seniors, kids. Our local group ride called SLOW spokes has a listed pace of 14-16 mph. And they are a group of retirees, lol. Our MUPS are flat routes and that makes it easy to go as fast or faster than the slowest speed from an ebike. It is NOT the speed that is the problem, it is the rider. Same thing with cars - people buy sports cars and drive them too fast on the city streets. Do we talk about banning them? Rofl at the hypocrisy.
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Old 07-19-23, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by linberl
It is NOT the speed that is the problem, it is the rider. Same thing with cars - people buy sports cars and drive them too fast on the city streets. Do we talk about banning them? Rofl at the hypocrisy.
Ah yes, "hypocrisy". A favorite term on social media.

Of course I don't believe I said anything of the sort. But why let that stand in the way?
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Old 07-19-23, 12:57 PM
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Originally Posted by jon c.
Ah yes, "hypocrisy". A favorite term on social media.

Of course I don't believe I said anything of the sort. But why let that stand in the way?
The hypocrisy is saying that because a minority of unmotorized riders can go as fast as ebikes, then ebikes are the problem. My point to you was that cars can go faster than the speed limit and what is also safe, so do you blame the automobile or the driver? Cars have the ability to go over 100mph, something that is totally unnecessary - and some fool will once in a while drive at that speed on the freeway endangering other drivers. Shall we put speed limiters on automobiles as a result? Somehow we have decided with cars that the problem is the driver, not the vehicle. Same is true for eibkes. That's the hypocrisy I'm talking about. People want to ban or limit ebikes but refuse to apply the exact same logic to automobiles.
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Old 07-19-23, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by linberl
The hypocrisy is saying that because a minority of unmotorized riders can go as fast as ebikes, then ebikes are the problem.
Not what I said.

But you're on a mission, so don't stop now.
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Old 07-19-23, 01:21 PM
  #48  
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Just as cars; faster, lighter bikes, ebikes are always going to be available.
Those who want to go fast will find ways to mod their vehicle to go faster regardless whether manufacturers produce/sell them or not.
Manufacturers will make & sell whatever people want to buy.

I'd say confiscate the ebikes (or bikes) when operators are caught going the speed limit on MUP, but I'm sure the logistics will cause problems, too.
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Old 07-20-23, 05:47 AM
  #49  
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There are ideas all around the world for cycling mobility solutions, plenty of alternatives for US to adapt:

https://www.youtube.com/@urbanmobilityexplained/videos

Even a "cycling super highway" could be possible:


Not sure how far this would get.. but I hope Americans don't have to be licensed to ride a bicycle.

California looking at new law about e bike licensing and training.

https://fox5sandiego.com/news/califo...date-training/

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Old 07-20-23, 02:55 PM
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This entire conversation is about inconsiderate people. No group has a lock on that franchise. It ain't the group, it ain't the 'vehicle', it ain't the type of pathway. It's just jerks being inconsiderate.
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