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Lithium-ion batteries?

Old 11-29-23, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by fooferdoggie
right but did you see the video? a bag is not going to contain it it will blow the bag apart. same with a metal can. Plus it's mainly while charging so then a cord will be coming out of the bag. The best solution is to buy a good bike with a UL listing on the battery and charger. as the video says the only real solution isn to to change in the house butters not always possible. the fire will put out a huge amount of heat and toxic smoke.
I use margarine.
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Old 11-29-23, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by fooferdoggie
right but did you see the video? a bag is not going to contain it it will blow the bag apart. same with a metal can. Plus it's mainly while charging so then a cord will be coming out of the bag. The best solution is to buy a good bike with a UL listing on the battery and charger. as the video says the only real solution isn to to change in the house butters not always possible. the fire will put out a huge amount of heat and toxic smoke.
yes yes, you hate batteries because you don't understand basic physics.

Can i explain the operation of a battery bag?
Absolutely

Will I waste my time on someone who doesn't want to understand.
Goodness no.....
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Old 11-29-23, 09:19 AM
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Originally Posted by CrimsonEclipse
yes yes, you hate batteries because you don't understand basic physics.

Can i explain the operation of a battery bag?
Absolutely

Will I waste my time on someone who doesn't want to understand.
Goodness no.....
well it seems you don't understand physics and have not watched how batteries act if they catch fire. If you think a bag an untested un regulated bag you bought on amazon will contain a battery explosion well thats on you. a small battery they may work but for the smoke. but no way for a e bike battery
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Old 11-29-23, 10:37 AM
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Opinions differ, it seems. See item #7.

Lithium Battery Fires: 10 Tips for Fire Prevention & Safety | Envista Forensics
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Old 11-29-23, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Bald Paul
watch the video. you link does not say about battery size or much of anything else. if a bike battery catches fire in your house the bag is not going to stop it. it also wont stop the smoke and damage. There plenty videos showing failure on small cells. Here is a big one. I love how your saying some random bag from china will work well with no proof at all. here is another video showing bigger battery packs. if you think that bag is going to protect your house well hope you have good insurance.
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Old 11-29-23, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by fooferdoggie
watch the video. you link does not say about battery size or much of anything else. if a bike battery catches fire in your house the bag is not going to stop it. it also wont stop the smoke and damage. There plenty videos showing failure on small cells. Here is a big one. I love how your saying some random bag from china will work well with no proof at all. here is another video showing bigger battery packs. if you think that bag is going to protect your house well hope you have good insurance.
My link states that it is advisable to charge in a fire resistant bag. I never mentioned "some random bag from China" but if you feel it helps prove your point, hey, run with it.
Obviously, the best answer to this issue is to BAN ALL E-BIKES.
(Just kidding, folks.)
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Old 11-29-23, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Bald Paul
My link states that it is advisable to charge in a fire resistant bag. I never mentioned "some random bag from China" but if you feel it helps prove your point, hey, run with it.
Obviously, the best answer to this issue is to BAN ALL E-BIKES.
(Just kidding, folks.)
well went to amazon with your link and here is the proof the bag wont work. it is made so you can gab the bag and toss it outside.so even the bag you recommend says it wont stop the fire.

Please note that this is an important affirmation, Please consider carefully before purchasing!

We designed FLASLD lipo bag to control the fire in its early stages, slowing down the spread of the flames and giving you more time to deal with the sudden state of spontaneous battery combustion. Since spontaneous battery combustion requires little or no oxygen to quickly raise the flame temperature to over 1,000 degrees Celsius, the FLASLD bag can only control battery fire for a short period of time, and you need to take action as soon as possible to To control the fire, I suggest you to store the battery in an open and no flammable place to reduce the risk! As a professional supplier of fireproofing materials, we are constantly exploring how to deal with spontaneous combustion of batteries, it is clear that the battery brings us convenience but also brings hidden dangers, the energy of the battery is so huge, the strong car shell can not withstand the power of spontaneous combustion of batteries, in how to deal with the issue of battery safety we still have a long way to go. Purchasing FLASLD battery bag does not mean it is absolutely safe, we do not want to mislead our customers and this statement means that we cannot cover the consequences of spontaneous battery combustion for you.
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Old 11-29-23, 02:40 PM
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Originally Posted by fooferdoggie
well went to amazon with your link and here is the proof the bag wont work. it is made so you can gab the bag and toss it outside.so even the bag you recommend says it wont stop the fire.

Please note that this is an important affirmation, Please consider carefully before purchasing!

We designed FLASLD lipo bag to control the fire in its early stages, slowing down the spread of the flames and giving you more time to deal with the sudden state of spontaneous battery combustion. Since spontaneous battery combustion requires little or no oxygen to quickly raise the flame temperature to over 1,000 degrees Celsius, the FLASLD bag can only control battery fire for a short period of time, and you need to take action as soon as possible to To control the fire, I suggest you to store the battery in an open and no flammable place to reduce the risk! As a professional supplier of fireproofing materials, we are constantly exploring how to deal with spontaneous combustion of batteries, it is clear that the battery brings us convenience but also brings hidden dangers, the energy of the battery is so huge, the strong car shell can not withstand the power of spontaneous combustion of batteries, in how to deal with the issue of battery safety we still have a long way to go. Purchasing FLASLD battery bag does not mean it is absolutely safe, we do not want to mislead our customers and this statement means that we cannot cover the consequences of spontaneous battery combustion for you.
Congratulations! You've finally made my IGNORE list.
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Old 11-29-23, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Bald Paul
Congratulations! You've finally made my IGNORE list.
so I take the info on the bag you recommend and your ignore me? that just funny. take your ball and go home ad tell your mom.
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Old 11-29-23, 03:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Bald Paul
Congratulations! You've finally made my IGNORE list.
You don't understand, you MUST ban eBikes and BE AFRAID!!!!!

(why aren't you being afraid?)

((BE AFRAID DAMMIT!!! I NEED ATTENTION!!!))
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Old 11-29-23, 06:20 PM
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Is there anyway of telling a safer lithium-ion battery from a less safe lithium-ion battery? Beside price, name brand or independent ratings what questions should I be asking about it's construction or materials? When I'm making a selection from similar priced batteries how do I know which one is the best value from a safety point of view?
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Old 11-29-23, 08:26 PM
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Many (most?) suppliers redistribute batteries manufactured in China, so it's the wild west. If you're considering DIY, purchase from the most reliable suppliers recommended at endless sphere from individuals who have been doing this for a long time; these are em3ev and ebikesca (Grin). If you purchase an OEM bike, FME (and reading) the batteries are safe (these manufacturers have a lot more to lose than some fly by night Chinese company that might change its name and go back into business half a block away).
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Old 11-29-23, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by dayco
Is there anyway of telling a safer lithium-ion battery from a less safe lithium-ion battery? Beside price, name brand or independent ratings what questions should I be asking about it's construction or materials? When I'm making a selection from similar priced batteries how do I know which one is the best value from a safety point of view?
My guess: UL listing puts the number on your side.
Nothing is a guarantee.
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Old 11-29-23, 09:20 PM
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Originally Posted by dayco
Is there anyway of telling a safer lithium-ion battery from a less safe lithium-ion battery? Beside price, name brand or independent ratings what questions should I be asking about it's construction or materials? When I'm making a selection from similar priced batteries how do I know which one is the best value from a safety point of view?
Going with known brands that have longer track record may be helpful, such as Samsung, Sony etc. In general, staying away from Chinese knock-offs couldnít hurt.

And as others might have already pointed out, the rate at which you charge matters - at higher rate (more current), it is vital to have a thermal regulator built into your battery pack so when the temp starts rising, the system cuts back on the current, allowing the batteries to remain within a safe temp range. It is safer to charge at lower current, longer time. But whatever method you use, overcharging is bad news, hence the need of timer or detection of state of charge with automatic shutoff.

If you understand or are willing to learn, you can build a charging system with all the appropriate safety monitoring yourself by buying components inexpensively or you can buy one ready-made.
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Old 11-29-23, 10:51 PM
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3 lives lost and others hurt with extreme damages... RATS!
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Old 11-30-23, 01:08 AM
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Originally Posted by zandoval
3 lives lost and others hurt with extreme damages... RATS!
Bad things happen with every technology. Even with well-established ones, when greed for more profits gets in the mix. Almost 10 times more people died in Ford Pinto fires, who should have never died, had it not been for Ford’s greed.
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Old 11-30-23, 02:55 AM
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Interesting new EU regs on batteries sold in Europe, including full lifecycle management not just safety.
https://www.ul.com/insights/industry...ation-20231542

I assume scooter batteries are classified as LMT
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Old 11-30-23, 10:57 AM
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With regard to the Euro directives, I would assume the same ...LMT includes electric only and electric/human power.

I believe the bigger batteries will eventually have ports like cars do today showing the status of everything going on inside.
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Old 11-30-23, 11:00 AM
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It's disturbing, the amount of wilful ignorance in this thread. You guys just want to run your mouths and naysay everything fooferdoggie is saying because it is scary.
How about considering his points? Maybe take a few minutes to look at the video evidence he has presented?

fooferdoggie seems to be right on most points here. The LiPo Sack type devices don't seem to work very well to contain the fire. (see his video in Post #28) People will spend the time berating him and typing that they are ignoring him, but not spend that same time to actually open their minds and watch a short video.

It's fine. Keep your heads in the sand and we may soon read about you burning your house down.
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Old 11-30-23, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Smaug1
It's disturbing, the amount of wilful ignorance in this thread. You guys just want to run your mouths and naysay everything fooferdoggie is saying because it is scary.
How about considering his points? Maybe take a few minutes to look at the video evidence he has presented?

fooferdoggie seems to be right on most points here. The LiPo Sack type devices don't seem to work very well to contain the fire. (see his video in Post #28) People will spend the time berating him and typing that they are ignoring him, but not spend that same time to actually open their minds and watch a short video.

It's fine. Keep your heads in the sand and we may soon read about you burning your house down.
The OP asked for suggestions for safe handling of batteries.
Links were provided with several excellent tips by more than one responder. A link to an available charging bag was given, with NO claims (other than what was given by the manufacturer) that the bags were 100% effective.
In response, he posted a couple of YT videos sensationalizing the 'failure' of the bags, which, in my opinion at least, performed as they were advertised. (Note that in one video, the boxes on either side of the bag did NOT catch fire) and therefore claimed that all suggestions provided were false and useless.

Never argue with an idiot. He'll bring the argument down to his level and beat you with experience.

Don't worry about my house. I don't own an e-bike.
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Old 11-30-23, 03:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Alan K
Bad things happen with every technology. Even with well-established ones, when greed for more profits gets in the mix. Almost 10 times more people died in Ford Pinto fires, who should have never died, had it not been for Fordís greed.
Nice to hear someone remembering one of my favorite cars. Specifically the Ford Pinto Station Wagon with the BIG 4 banger. I was able to fix the gas tank problem by getting Back Door repair parts from a dealership. I dropped the tank, installed a shield, replaced the filler neck, and thats it. One Saturdays work. Supposedly fixed and no dealership intervention. Now that low hanging Oil Pan was another problem. I had to weld in a skid plate ta fix that problem. Was it worth it? Yes... I got my moneys worth outta that car. Its demise was via a slow impact T-Bone accident that bent the car in half. I am so glad I did not get a chance to test that gas tank shield.

As to the OP, I have had some time to think about it now. Regulation, inspections, more laws and over site may not be the answer. It could be that the batteries were owner modified or simply of poor quality. What can we do? I once took apart a power surge secondary supply block for a server. It was made by HP. I was shocked to find poor welding, positioning, and even corrosion on the lithium batteries. Is it worth it to take your large power packs apart to make sure they are sound? I dont think you can. Lithium ion batteries present a real engineering problem. Lets fix it!
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Old 11-30-23, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by zandoval
Nice to hear someone remembering one of my favorite cars. Specifically the Ford Pinto Station Wagon with the BIG 4 banger. I was able to fix the gas tank problem by getting Back Door repair parts from a dealership. I dropped the tank, installed a shield, replaced the filler neck, and thats it. One Saturdays work. Supposedly fixed and no dealership intervention. Now that low hanging Oil Pan was another problem. I had to weld in a skid plate ta fix that problem. Was it worth it? Yes... I got my moneys worth outta that car. Its demise was via a slow impact T-Bone accident that bent the car in half. I am so glad I did not get a chance to test that gas tank shield.

As to the OP, I have had some time to think about it now. Regulation, inspections, more laws and over site may not be the answer. It could be that the batteries were owner modified or simply of poor quality. What can we do? I once took apart a power surge secondary supply block for a server. It was made by HP. I was shocked to find poor welding, positioning, and even corrosion on the lithium batteries. Is it worth it to take your large power packs apart to make sure they are sound? I dont think you can. Lithium ion batteries present a real engineering problem. Lets fix it!
It doesn’t have to be someone monkeying with their batteries without knowing enough. As you point out about a well-known company HP, the race for cutting corners to make a few more cents has been going on for several decades now. Seems like everyone has succumbed to this pressure at the cost of quality and even safety. Over the years, i have gotten in the habit of opening/ dismantling and attempting to fix things when anything breaks. Majority of the time, I have found similar problems that you described. On many occasions, soldering is very poor quality and there is minimal electrical continuity. Solder, flux and a few seconds of extra time, that’s all it takes! There are times when some companies (their contractors) use a thinner interconnects, that may get too warm under load and deteriorate the solder points - all easily fixable before the problem begins just for pennies. The only more serious problems I have encountered are with older circuits where capacitors failed after some years. The makers of these devices do not repair anything, their solution is to sell you a whole new board for several hundred bucks. One can get a box 100 capacitors for a few dollar and have spares to last a life-time. And even in these cases, had they used a capacitor of higher capacitance, chances are that it wouldn’t have failed. Most circuits have sufficient headroom that capacitor of higher value wouldn’t harm anything beyond it, which can be easily sorted out in any event.
Of course, if they make things to last a long time, the benefits of planned obsolescence disappear, and what sort of self-respecting corporation would ever want that! 😉

I was offered a 1 year old Pinto with low mileage for less than half the price of new but I passed. 😉
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Old 12-01-23, 10:21 AM
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Not to divert too much from the incendiary issues being discussed, but YouTube, Rob Rides EMTB has an interesting article on the proprietary nature of emtb batteries, motors and chargers within the industry and extending to a given brand's own models from year to year. The bottom line; almost nothing fits or can be used on anything else.
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Old 12-01-23, 01:26 PM
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i've had my ebike for a few years. I got an Army surplus ammo container, and I store the batteries in there during the winter. Maybe I should always keep them in there, but I haven't had a problem so far. It's actually charging right now.

One of the rules of life, don't buy crap..
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Old 12-01-23, 03:34 PM
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'2old's' YouTube video makes the point of lack of standardization:


I plan on building an inexpensive e-bike. But as the video points out, those who plan to purchase a manufactured e-bike have a lot to consider also.

'late' said, "One of the rules of life, don't buy crap." But how do you know for sure you're not buying crap?

I'm gleaning knowledge and wisdom from everyone,.I want to make a safe and affordable e-bike.
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