Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Electric Bikes
Reload this Page >

Lithium-ion batteries?

Notices
Electric Bikes Here's a place to discuss ebikes, from home grown to high-tech.

Lithium-ion batteries?

Old 12-01-23, 03:59 PM
  #51  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 823
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 471 Post(s)
Liked 331 Times in 258 Posts
Originally Posted by dayco
'2old's' YouTube video makes the point of lack of standardization:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PN505EbwWT0

I plan on building an inexpensive e-bike. But as the video points out, those who plan to purchase a manufactured e-bike have a lot to consider also.

'late' said, "One of the rules of life, don't buy crap." But how do you know for sure you're not buying crap?

I'm gleaning knowledge and wisdom from everyone,.I want to make a safe and affordable e-bike.
Acquiring knowledge and learning is usually a good start. 😉

As for not buying crap ever, this would put stores like Wollie’s World and many online outfits that are middle men for junk from China out of business, which isn’t necessarily a bad thing. 😉
Alan K is offline  
Old 12-01-23, 05:41 PM
  #52  
Senior Member
 
Doc_Wui's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Chicago Suburbs
Posts: 1,400

Bikes: GT Transeo & a half dozen ebike conversions.

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 340 Post(s)
Liked 275 Times in 192 Posts
Originally Posted by dayco
I'm gleaning knowledge and wisdom from everyone,.I want to make a safe and affordable e-bike.
Many of the chinese import ebikes do use commonly available batteries, even if most have moved to designs that integrate batteries in the frame.

In the DIY world, you're going to be choosing what kind of a battery wart to mount on the downtube, as you'll be using a regular bike frame. I think most of the Hailong cases have flimsy mounts, coming standard with only two holes to hold an 8-10 lb battery on water bottle screw holes. The older Dolphin is rarely used these days, but is more rugged design. A conscientious builder will augment the battery with extra attach points, and almost never mount it upside down like what is often seen with full suspension bikes.
Doc_Wui is offline  
Old 12-02-23, 08:14 AM
  #53  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: socal
Posts: 4,249
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 877 Post(s)
Liked 810 Times in 612 Posts

This is a Blackburn rack that has two straps to secure the battery, and used off road on the FS bike. I placed a piece of Styrofoam between the battery and the cage in order to insulate it from shock. All of the batteries on my DIY bikes have XT-90 battery and XT-60 charger connectors. Pretty simple solution.
2old is offline  
Old 12-02-23, 08:44 AM
  #54  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2023
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 526
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 340 Post(s)
Liked 250 Times in 161 Posts
To be "safe" in the traditional sense, treat these batteries like the gasoline they replace. Everyone knows not to store a gallon of gasoline (even in a proper can) in their bedroom.
ScottCommutes is online now  
Likes For ScottCommutes:
Old 12-02-23, 11:48 AM
  #55  
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Lee County, IA
Posts: 61

Bikes: Trek 5600 Carbon road bike, Giant Anyroad Comax gravel bike, Cruzbike QX100

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 19 Times in 13 Posts
Originally Posted by Doc_Wui
Many of the chinese import ebikes do use commonly available batteries, even if most have moved to designs that integrate batteries in the frame.

In the DIY world, you're going to be choosing what kind of a battery wart to mount on the downtube, as you'll be using a regular bike frame. I think most of the Hailong cases have flimsy mounts, coming standard with only two holes to hold an 8-10 lb battery on water bottle screw holes. The older Dolphin is rarely used these days, but is more rugged design. A conscientious builder will augment the battery with extra attach points, and almost never mount it upside down like what is often seen with full suspension bikes.
I do mount my battery upside down underneath on my T50 Cruzbike, but I also made a support so that the mount is not carrying the load. Having the battery rack mounted made handling squirrelly.
polyrhythmia is offline  
Old 12-02-23, 01:20 PM
  #56  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Sin City, Nevada
Posts: 2,881

Bikes: Catrike 700, Greenspeed GTO trike, , Linear LWB recumbent, Haluzak Horizon SWB recumbent, Balance 450 MTB, Cannondale SM800 Beast of the East

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 522 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 227 Times in 179 Posts
It is funny reading ScottCommutes comment. I received a call from my brother two days ago letting me know that he had a house fire but both he and his wife were OK. His wife owns a Jeep with starting problems so she carries on of those jump-start contraptions. It must have a pretty substantial Li-ion battery. She was charging it in a spare bedroom when it started to burn. From what he told me it produced a lot of noxious smoke and soot. He unplugged it and covered it with a fire resistant blanket while the fire department was on their way. I would never have charged anything with a substantial Li-ion battery inside the house or garage.
VegasTriker is offline  
Old 12-02-23, 02:59 PM
  #57  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: socal
Posts: 4,249
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 877 Post(s)
Liked 810 Times in 612 Posts
VT, excellent point; I charge my battery in the middle of my yard on stone blocks (even though I'm not really worried about them).
2old is offline  
Likes For 2old:
Old 12-02-23, 03:30 PM
  #58  
55+ Club,...
 
tds101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere in New York, NY
Posts: 4,305

Bikes: 9+,...

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1108 Post(s)
Liked 837 Times in 582 Posts
Originally Posted by 2old
VT, excellent point; I charge my battery in the middle of my yard on stone blocks (even though I'm not really worried about them).
I hope you have those stone blocks insured. You know, just in case...
__________________
If it wasn't for you meddling kids,...
tds101 is online now  
Likes For tds101:
Old 12-02-23, 03:52 PM
  #59  
aged to perfection
 
mpetry912's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: PacNW
Posts: 1,794

Bikes: Dinucci Allez 2.0, Richard Sachs, Alex Singer, Serotta, Masi GC, Raleigh Pro Mk.1, Hetchins, etc

Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 827 Post(s)
Liked 1,234 Times in 652 Posts
the extreme low end bikes may only have a very rudimentary battery management system.

one good rule of thumb is to keep an eye (or finger) on the temperature of both the battery and the charger.

and pull the plug if either get too warm

another is to not charge the battery to 100% - pull the plug at 80% or so.

I have a Specialized Vado 5 with a 600w battery and have had zero issues with battery temps

/markp
mpetry912 is online now  
Old 12-02-23, 06:58 PM
  #60  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: socal
Posts: 4,249
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 877 Post(s)
Liked 810 Times in 612 Posts
tds, ha ha; while maybe somewhat fire resistant, they were priced very reasonably (plus my daughter's fiancee installed them.
2old is offline  
Likes For 2old:
Old 12-04-23, 02:46 PM
  #61  
Newbie
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: northern illinois
Posts: 45
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Liked 14 Times in 8 Posts
This is what I've gleaned...

A more expensive name-brand battery/charger UL-tested is the safest choice. The battery and charger must be compatible and have internal fuses. There must be a battery maintenance system (BMS) that controls/checks the charging and temperature. You should begin charging the battery when it's cool and is down to 20% capacity and should end the charge at about 80% capacity for 5 to 10 charging cycles. The BMS will have a low voltage/high voltage cutoff. After 5-10 charging cycles the battery should be charged to 100% to allow the BMS to balance/equalize the cell rows. If the voltage/current between the cell rows can not be equalized the BMS should disconnect the battery from use.

A properly featured BMS should control the maximum charge and the rate of charge. It should also sense battery temperature. (I may also want to do an occasional touch-test) It is recommended to unplug or use an independent wall timer to disconnect the charger and battery after a fixed period of charging time. Charge only in a fire resistant location while monitoring. Avoid charging in hot or cold temperature extremes.

I will make my selection from batteries and/or sellers that yield this information. Buying or doing anything less will mean a greater battery/charger fire risk.
dayco is offline  
Old 12-04-23, 10:59 PM
  #62  
Senior Member
 
Doc_Wui's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Chicago Suburbs
Posts: 1,400

Bikes: GT Transeo & a half dozen ebike conversions.

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 340 Post(s)
Liked 275 Times in 192 Posts
All of those Hailongs that have a space in the cradle to hold a controller only have two locking tabs to lock the battery down. They shouldn't be used upside down with half the weight of the battery unsupported. You want to use the type on the bottom, that has lock tabs along the full length.


Doc_Wui is offline  
Old 12-05-23, 07:20 AM
  #63  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: socal
Posts: 4,249
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 877 Post(s)
Liked 810 Times in 612 Posts
I've never needed to install a battery upside down, but wouldn't hesitate to if necessary since I always secure the battery with one or two "toe straps" or Velcro straps in addition to the normal installation system. This prevents any extra movement of the battery.
2old is offline  
Old 12-05-23, 08:53 AM
  #64  
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Lee County, IA
Posts: 61

Bikes: Trek 5600 Carbon road bike, Giant Anyroad Comax gravel bike, Cruzbike QX100

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 19 Times in 13 Posts
I have the bottom style mount, though there are only three M5 screws to mount it under the T50 Cruzbike. I still don't trust the mount by itself. The support is made from aluminum. As far as storing battery over winter, I would think that it's better to be in a cool place, but not close to freezing.
polyrhythmia is offline  
Old 12-05-23, 09:47 AM
  #65  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: socal
Posts: 4,249
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 877 Post(s)
Liked 810 Times in 612 Posts
As warm (within reason) as possible. Also, don't charge if the battery is below 50 degrees F.
2old is offline  
Likes For 2old:
Old 12-05-23, 05:55 PM
  #66  
55+ Club,...
 
tds101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere in New York, NY
Posts: 4,305

Bikes: 9+,...

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1108 Post(s)
Liked 837 Times in 582 Posts
Originally Posted by 2old
tds, ha ha; while maybe somewhat fire resistant, they were priced very reasonably (plus my daughter's fiancee installed them.
I see...
__________________
If it wasn't for you meddling kids,...
tds101 is online now  
Likes For tds101:
Old 12-06-23, 06:59 PM
  #67  
Newbie
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Lee County, IA
Posts: 61

Bikes: Trek 5600 Carbon road bike, Giant Anyroad Comax gravel bike, Cruzbike QX100

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 19 Times in 13 Posts
Upgraded the Bafang display so now I know what the battery is really doing as far as charge. Most frustrating are the really tiny screws and nuts. Then I should be able to gauge the charge by the voltage shown by the charger, 50 volts being about 50% charged, for a 48 volt system.
polyrhythmia is offline  
Old 12-06-23, 07:31 PM
  #68  
Senior Member
 
Doc_Wui's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Chicago Suburbs
Posts: 1,400

Bikes: GT Transeo & a half dozen ebike conversions.

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 340 Post(s)
Liked 275 Times in 192 Posts
Originally Posted by VegasTriker
His wife owns a Jeep with starting problems so she carries on of those jump-start contraptions. It must have a pretty substantial Li-ion battery. She was charging it in a spare bedroom when it started to burn. From what he told me it produced a lot of noxious smoke and soot. He unplugged it and covered it with a fire resistant blanket while the fire department was on their way. I would never have charged anything with a substantial Li-ion battery inside the house or garage.
Those jump starters are not that big, They contain pouch cells. I bought three of them from Walmart on clearance for around $25 each in 2015. Ran them in series to power my 36V bike. Cheap power back in those days. I was always afraid of them, so I would charge them outside on the driveway. One day, it rained and the water ruined them. Better off without them.
Doc_Wui is offline  
Likes For Doc_Wui:
Old 12-07-23, 09:55 AM
  #69  
55+ Club,...
 
tds101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere in New York, NY
Posts: 4,305

Bikes: 9+,...

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1108 Post(s)
Liked 837 Times in 582 Posts
I had one of those battery boosters almost set my house on fire a few years ago. That's why I use a capacitor-based battery booster for my car. It works amazingly well.
__________________
If it wasn't for you meddling kids,...
tds101 is online now  
Likes For tds101:
Old 12-07-23, 10:03 AM
  #70  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 4,810
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1591 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,017 Times in 571 Posts
I charge 40v tool batteries indoors without a second thought. Are these batteries safer or am I just insufficiently cautious?
jon c. is offline  
Likes For jon c.:
Old 12-07-23, 10:33 AM
  #71  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: socal
Posts: 4,249
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 877 Post(s)
Liked 810 Times in 612 Posts
Originally Posted by jon c.
I charge 40v tool batteries indoors without a second thought. Are these batteries safer or am I just insufficiently cautious?
IMO, those tool batteries, as well as batteries from big bicycle OEM's (Trek, Specialized, Giant, etc) can be charged inside safely. A problem with them may have occurred, but I've never heard of one.
2old is offline  
Likes For 2old:
Old 12-07-23, 12:19 PM
  #72  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,073
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 537 Post(s)
Liked 613 Times in 357 Posts
Originally Posted by jon c.
I charge 40v tool batteries indoors without a second thought. Are these batteries safer or am I just insufficiently cautious?
The tool batteries aren't as energy dense and less likely to cascade fail.
They still happen, but simply won't make the news
CrimsonEclipse is offline  
Likes For CrimsonEclipse:
Old 12-07-23, 12:47 PM
  #73  
55+ Club,...
 
tds101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere in New York, NY
Posts: 4,305

Bikes: 9+,...

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1108 Post(s)
Liked 837 Times in 582 Posts
Originally Posted by jon c.
I charge 40v tool batteries indoors without a second thought. Are these batteries safer or am I just insufficiently cautious?
I work for the MTA in NYC, and we charge those types of batteries all the time completely without incident. It's these other, unregulated ones that are the issue. I don't know if I've really ever seen these catch fire TBH. The car jumpers, they overheat. Mine was actually producing smoke.
__________________
If it wasn't for you meddling kids,...
tds101 is online now  
Likes For tds101:
Old 12-07-23, 04:38 PM
  #74  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: socal
Posts: 4,249
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 877 Post(s)
Liked 810 Times in 612 Posts
I worked in a friend's large machine shop for a few years and tool batteries which weren't being used were charged inside the shop constantly. Probably there were at least 10 batteries on the chargers and they stayed there day and night until needed. The BMS (battery management system) regulated the voltage.
2old is offline  
Likes For 2old:
Old 01-09-24, 11:26 PM
  #75  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2017
Posts: 1,508
Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 684 Post(s)
Liked 377 Times in 300 Posts
In one of my past lives, my work involved EOD (bomb disposal) robots. Came time to modernize and upgrade the power densities, the lead-acid batteries were replaced with Nickle Metal Hydride; Lithium Ion batteries had long been on the market and offered even greater power density, but there was hesitancy to make a potential bomb from a bomb-disposal robot.

I do not yet own an electric bike, but am happy for the Li-Ion cells, their high power density, their range. But given the size of those batteries, I would never charge them on the bike, I would obtain a STEEL (not aluminum) charging box that could totally contain any fire, explosion, and excessive heat, and always charge the battery in the box, with the box sitting on something fireproof, like bricks or a concrete floor. A bit more hassle, but a lot more safe. It would be nice if the battery were internal to the bike if the bike itself could contain a fire, but a frame from aluminum or carbon-reinforced-plastic, no. This is why Boeing had to replace the box holding lithium emergency batteries on the 787, from aluminum, to steel or titanium (I forget which), because aluminum did not adequately contain two separate fires.

My phone and keyboard use lithium batteries. Despite their much smaller size, I never leave anything on a charger unattended.
Duragrouch is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.