Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Electric Bikes
Reload this Page >

E-bikes and scooters displace 4x as much demand for oil as all of the EVs in world

Notices
Electric Bikes Here's a place to discuss ebikes, from home grown to high-tech.

E-bikes and scooters displace 4x as much demand for oil as all of the EVs in world

Old 12-06-23, 12:17 AM
  #26  
Senior Member
 
plumberroy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: ohio
Posts: 1,107

Bikes: Surly long haul trucker, Surly steamroller,Huffy Catalina, Univega Alpina 501. Gravity deadeye monster, Raliegh sport , Electra loft 1

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 607 Post(s)
Liked 298 Times in 181 Posts
Originally Posted by Alan K
Unless our society is fully restructured such that distances between homes, work places and shopping areas for routines necessities are drastically reduced, e-bikes or any sub-100lb machines just wouldn’t be practical.
Only way to do that is bring back manufacturing to small towns . When I was a kid nearly every town had something to provide jobs (60's-70's ) and most towns had stores to buy most needs . They are hundreds of small towns across the United States that are burning down one abandoned building at a time
plumberroy is offline  
Old 12-06-23, 06:38 AM
  #27  
Senior Member
 
late's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Southern Maine
Posts: 8,941
Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12188 Post(s)
Liked 1,495 Times in 1,107 Posts
Originally Posted by storckm

Is the flammability of hydrogen more of a concern than that of lithium batteries or gasoline? I've messed around with hydrogen gas from electrolysis, and it wasn't too easy to ignite.
The engine will be burning hydrogen, and that means intense heat.. There has been a lot of work trying to develop ways to deal with the problem. One approach is to crack hydrogen out of water as you need it. Fuel cells are another possibility.

I think the short answer is yes, it's invisible..
late is offline  
Old 12-06-23, 10:05 AM
  #28  
55+ Club,...
 
tds101's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere in New York, NY
Posts: 4,318

Bikes: 9+,...

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1111 Post(s)
Liked 842 Times in 587 Posts
Originally Posted by Thigh Master
EVs = lithium… the mines already apparently being fought over, divided up into cartels, etc. How long do EV and e-bike batteries last? How do we recycle and recover the materials?
Things may be changing soon...

A struggling California region is suddenly poised to become very, very rich

__________________
If it wasn't for you meddling kids,...
tds101 is offline  
Likes For tds101:
Old 12-06-23, 10:35 AM
  #29  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Location: socal
Posts: 4,258
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 879 Post(s)
Liked 816 Times in 616 Posts
YIPPEE! Borax all over again. I'm heading there to be part of a group building the rail line to move the stuff (JK). But seriously, we've had basically the current Lithium batteries for 10 - 15 years with only minimal improvements. The next precipitous change could take a while.
2old is offline  
Likes For 2old:
Old 12-06-23, 11:36 AM
  #30  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,200
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 137 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 81 Times in 64 Posts
Originally Posted by Polaris OBark
Roads, highways and other car-unfriendly infrastructure are ongoing taxpayer subsidies to the auto industry and fossil fuel industry for the most part. If those subsidies were immediately switched over to supporting non-fossil fuel vehicles, including e-bikes, it would instantly become much more "practical." For example, if e-bikes and electric trams were supported, and private gas-powered cars were taxed into oblivion, the problem could be solved rather quickly. There just needs to be the political will to do so.
A fundamental barrier to low energy transportation is the huge sunk investment in high energy transportation with a very large inventory of used vehicles. On top of that are the tax policies that keep fuel costs low thereby making high energy used vehicles viable. It’ll take multiple ‘73 style fuel crisis for reality to sink in and change people’s choices. Obviously not there yet.
LeeG is offline  
Old 12-06-23, 01:22 PM
  #31  
ignominious poltroon
Thread Starter
 
Polaris OBark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 4,013
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2232 Post(s)
Liked 3,415 Times in 1,786 Posts
Originally Posted by LeeG
A fundamental barrier to low energy transportation is the huge sunk investment in high energy transportation with a very large inventory of used vehicles. On top of that are the tax policies that keep fuel costs low thereby making high energy used vehicles viable. It’ll take multiple ‘73 style fuel crisis for reality to sink in and change people’s choices. Obviously not there yet.
cf: Post 16
Polaris OBark is offline  
Old 12-06-23, 02:20 PM
  #32  
Rider. Wanderer. Creator.
 
john m flores's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 768

Bikes: Bike Friday Pocket Rocket, Cinelli Hobootleg, Zizzo Liberte

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 389 Post(s)
Liked 771 Times in 375 Posts
Originally Posted by storckm
Does anyone have any thoughts about hydrogen fuel cells? They're expensive currently, and we don't have refueling stations, but they don't have the charging time or the environmental costs of the lithium batteries. They seem like a better solution than batteries. (Although the biggest problem is the way we've built our cities around the automobile in this country.)
Toyota, Porsche, and others are experimenting with hydrogen vehicles. Toyota's Mirai is hydrogen fuel cell and for sale in California. Porsche's looking at hydrogen combustion, as is Formula 1, as a means of maintaining the visceral thrill of an internal combustion motor with reduced emissions.

Building a hydrogen delivery infrastructure is part of the challenge. One of the thoughts is to re-use part of the natural gas pipeline infrastructure already in place, but safety requirements are likely very different, requiring a lot of upgrades and retrofits.

One place where hydrogen may play a role is in heavy transport, such as overland freight, shipping, and air travel. Battery density is much to low for these applications, meaning that current tech batteries may be inordinately large to support these applications. Hydrogen could work here, and the pipeline/infrastructure needs would be much less intensive than in passenger light vehicles. Imagine container ships fueled by hydrogen and the trucks that transport goods to delivery warehouses powered by hydrogen as well. At that point, you might also run the delivery vehicles on hydrogen if the distribution warehouse has hydrogen on site.

Interesting times for sure.
john m flores is offline  
Old 12-06-23, 02:25 PM
  #33  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 823
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 472 Post(s)
Liked 332 Times in 258 Posts
Originally Posted by late
The engine will be burning hydrogen, and that means intense heat.. There has been a lot of work trying to develop ways to deal with the problem. One approach is to crack hydrogen out of water as you need it. Fuel cells are another possibility.

I think the short answer is yes, it's invisible..
That cracking requires substantial amount of electrical energy (electrolysis). As you need it in a mode of transportation would mean carrying a large capacity (heavy) battery to perform electrolysis on the go - that would make for an obviously wasteful cycle.
Alan K is offline  
Old 12-06-23, 02:35 PM
  #34  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 823
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 472 Post(s)
Liked 332 Times in 258 Posts
Originally Posted by plumberroy
Only way to do that is bring back manufacturing to small towns . When I was a kid nearly every town had something to provide jobs (60's-70's ) and most towns had stores to buy most needs . They are hundreds of small towns across the United States that are burning down one abandoned building at a time
Yes, how a large portion of our population currently lives (huge numbers concentrated in relatively small area for work) has definitely exacerbated energy related problems. Decentralized living would go a long way in being part of solution.
Alan K is offline  
Old 12-06-23, 08:44 PM
  #35  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,085
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 546 Post(s)
Liked 627 Times in 368 Posts
Originally Posted by storckm
Is the flammability of hydrogen more of a concern than that of lithium batteries or gasoline? I've messed around with hydrogen gas from electrolysis, and it wasn't too easy to ignite.
Hydrogen for transportation is a horrible idea.
The tank WILL leak and it is really REALLY flammable.
Don't get me started on cryo storing hydrogen.

I'll take 1,000,000 non UL batteries over a single H2 tank.
CrimsonEclipse is offline  
Old 12-06-23, 09:29 PM
  #36  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Tallahassee, FL
Posts: 4,811
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1591 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1,017 Times in 571 Posts
You can convert an IC engine to run on hydrogen quite easily. I've seen it done.
jon c. is offline  
Old 12-06-23, 11:15 PM
  #37  
Senior Member
 
plumberroy's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: ohio
Posts: 1,107

Bikes: Surly long haul trucker, Surly steamroller,Huffy Catalina, Univega Alpina 501. Gravity deadeye monster, Raliegh sport , Electra loft 1

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 607 Post(s)
Liked 298 Times in 181 Posts
Originally Posted by Alan K
Yes, how a large portion of our population currently lives (huge numbers concentrated in relatively small area for work) has definitely exacerbated energy related problems. Decentralized living would go a long way in being part of solution.
Letting our rail systems go away didn't help either rail can move freight very fuel efficiently. Rail could eliminate over the road trucking and be efficient transit but we now longer have the infrastructure. I hate to drive but my wife doesn't drive my . As maintenance there are days that I may have to stay until it is done and roads aren't bike friendly in my neighborhood. Ore bike for that matter.
plumberroy is offline  
Old 12-07-23, 01:45 AM
  #38  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,990
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2493 Post(s)
Liked 738 Times in 522 Posts
Originally Posted by plumberroy
Letting our rail systems go away didn't help either rail can move freight very fuel efficiently. Rail could eliminate over the road trucking and be efficient transit but we now longer have the infrastructure. I hate to drive but my wife doesn't drive my . As maintenance there are days that I may have to stay until it is done and roads aren't bike friendly in my neighborhood. Ore bike for that matter.
Rail cannot handle much in the way of elevation changes. The rail infrastructure has not so much 'gone away' as it's potential was stunted by the 'easier' way of relying on over the road trucking. Urban and inter-urban mass transit systems could absolutely benefit from a rail modality, but individual passenger vehicles are the primary transportation paradigm. That needs to change.
Leisesturm is offline  
Likes For Leisesturm:
Old 12-08-23, 11:23 AM
  #39  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 823
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 472 Post(s)
Liked 332 Times in 258 Posts
Originally Posted by Leisesturm
Rail cannot handle much in the way of elevation changes. The rail infrastructure has not so much 'gone away' as it's potential was stunted by the 'easier' way of relying on over the road trucking. Urban and inter-urban mass transit systems could absolutely benefit from a rail modality, but individual passenger vehicles are the primary transportation paradigm. That needs to change.
Switzerland and bulk of the Europe seems to do alright with their rail system.
Alan K is offline  
Likes For Alan K:
Old 12-08-23, 11:31 AM
  #40  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2021
Location: San Francisco
Posts: 2,032

Bikes: addict, aethos, creo, vanmoof, sirrus, public ...

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1273 Post(s)
Liked 1,384 Times in 708 Posts
Originally Posted by Alan K
Switzerland and bulk of the Europe seems to do alright with their rail system.
they spend appropriately on the most sustainable, equitable, efficient modes of transport - rail of all types, bus, etc. in the united states the illusion of "freedom" and desire to avoid "big government" or taxes leads to spending primarily on roads and freeways, which are horribly inefficient (especially when paired with the required parking) compared to almost any type of public transport.

the OP's article is a good reminder why the anti-e attitude of many cyclists is deeply counterproductive to both the cause of more cycling infrastructure and the environment. HTFU and accept that the real enemy of cycling as both a recreational pastime and a practical for of transport is the car paradigm, not e-bikes and e-scooters.
__________________
mschwett is offline  
Old 12-08-23, 03:17 PM
  #41  
Rider. Wanderer. Creator.
 
john m flores's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 768

Bikes: Bike Friday Pocket Rocket, Cinelli Hobootleg, Zizzo Liberte

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 389 Post(s)
Liked 771 Times in 375 Posts
Originally Posted by Leisesturm
Rail cannot handle much in the way of elevation changes. The rail infrastructure has not so much 'gone away' as it's potential was stunted by the 'easier' way of relying on over the road trucking. Urban and inter-urban mass transit systems could absolutely benefit from a rail modality, but individual passenger vehicles are the primary transportation paradigm. That needs to change.
Rail still plays a very important role in long distance freight. Up to 40% of long distance freight is via rail. And that includes getting across the Rocky and Sierra Nevada Mountains. Overall (short and long trips), rail is second to trucks but it's still a big player.
__________________
--------------------------------------
Rider. Wanderer. Creator.
JohnMFlores.com | YouTube: JohnMFlores
Insta: JohnMichaelFlores | TikTok: @johnnymotoflores
john m flores is offline  
Likes For john m flores:
Old 12-08-23, 03:28 PM
  #42  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Posts: 5,990
Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2493 Post(s)
Liked 738 Times in 522 Posts
Originally Posted by john m flores
Rail still plays a very important role in long distance freight. Up to 40% of long distance freight is via rail. And that includes getting across the Rocky and Sierra Nevada Mountains. Overall (short and long trips), rail is second to trucks but it's still a big player.
Not arguing that it isn't. I've always lived near freight tracks since I left NYC. Can't get away from them. They're everywhere. Can't say the same for overland passenger rail service though.
Leisesturm is offline  
Old 03-14-24, 12:52 AM
  #43  
Newbie
 
Join Date: Mar 2024
Location: Pune, India
Posts: 1
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
e-bikes and e-scooters

Yes, It's interesting to think about how e-bikes and e-scooters now. Even though electric cars get a lot of attention for cutting down on oil use, e-bikes and scooters actually play a big role too. They're becoming more popular in cities because cities need fresh air now. This shows that there are lots of ways we can reduce our dependence on fossil fuels and help the environment. By using different kinds of eco-friendly transportation, we can save oil, and we will make our planet cleaner and healthier.
vinayakp33 is offline  
Old 03-14-24, 07:02 PM
  #44  
Clark W. Griswold
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: ,location, location
Posts: 13,482

Bikes: Foundry Chilkoot Ti W/Ultegra Di2, Salsa Timberjack Ti, Cinelli Mash Work RandoCross Fun Time Machine, 1x9 XT Parts Hybrid, Co-Motion Cascadia, Specialized Langster, Phil Wood Apple VeloXS Frame (w/DA 7400), R+M Supercharger2 Rohloff, Habanero Ti 26

Mentioned: 54 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4338 Post(s)
Liked 3,964 Times in 2,650 Posts
I think the above poster might be a AI bot? Anywho it is a slightly older thread. A young zombie.
veganbikes is offline  
Old 03-16-24, 06:10 AM
  #45  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 89

Bikes: Riese & Müller Multicharger GT 750; Dahon Jetstream EX

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked 25 Times in 19 Posts
Originally Posted by LeeG
$.02 EVs are neat but they will have no impact on the extraction of oil in the world which is happening as fast as possible.
Not true! Less demand means less production -- basic econ. Every trip done by any kind of EV is that much less oil extracted and burned.

In the case of ebikes and scooters, it's not just the form of energy but the quantity of it -- ebikes use tiny amounts of energy compared to any kind of car (including electric).

How the electrical power is produced matters, however, especially in the case of electric cars where the quantity of energy used is similar to that of normal cars. If it's generated with coal, you're not doing the planet a great favor by using an electric car vs. petrol one. So part of this is getting rid of coal power ASAP and building more wind, solar, and nuclear. Where I live, the last hydrocarbon fired power plant was shut down last year and the electrical grid is 100% carbon free. It's 40% nuclear, and the rest is wind, solar, hydro, and biomass.
Dockhead is offline  
Old 03-16-24, 06:17 AM
  #46  
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Posts: 89

Bikes: Riese & Müller Multicharger GT 750; Dahon Jetstream EX

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 32 Post(s)
Liked 25 Times in 19 Posts
Originally Posted by Leisesturm
Rail cannot handle much in the way of elevation changes. The rail infrastructure has not so much 'gone away' as it's potential was stunted by the 'easier' way of relying on over the road trucking. Urban and inter-urban mass transit systems could absolutely benefit from a rail modality, but individual passenger vehicles are the primary transportation paradigm. That needs to change.
Actually the prediction is that individual transport will increase compared to mass transport, including inside urban areas. That's because of self-driving cars. Various cities are planning to ban human-driven cars in city centers. You will park your car, if you have one, at the edge and switch to light rail or a public self-driving car. Self-driving cars need far less road area than human driven ones and no parking at all, so banning human driven cars will radically transform cities. For the better. What is now roads and parking will be green spaces, pedestrian areas, bike paths. I've seen actual city plans for actual cities with this.

It's predicted that buses will entirely disappear as a public self-driven taxi will be cheaper and more convenient.

I wish I were a bit younger in order to live to see all this fully implemented.
Dockhead is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.