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Under $250 brushless Ebike

Old 05-14-07, 05:36 AM
  #26  
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I'm moving this to the new Electric Bikes subforum.

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Old 05-14-07, 12:24 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by outrunner
This is just a quick test setup and not even meant for a bicycle necessarily.
The motor should be mounted to take strain off the shaft to prevent damage to the motor.

Thanks!
Steve
Hmmm.... friction drive. I've had trouble with friction drives in the past. Most notably my Go-Ped. Friction drives chew through tires real fast and they have lots of trouble when wet.
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Old 05-14-07, 12:36 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Kraeuterbutter


I built a similar system to that a while ago. The issue I had is that the motor driving the pedals would whack me in the leg if I took my leg off the pedal for some reason.

Personally I think a hybrid crank and hub-wheel would be the best. Let me explain:

The Bion-x system uses a strain guage to mesure the amount of force applied. It can also freewheel. So imagine this: You take off the crank on the right side of your bike and replace it with a hub motor and bolt-on some gears to the case. You run a freewheel shaft through the middle and you attach the pedals at either end of that shaft. Then you simply run the chain over the hub-now-turned-crank motor to the rear derailleur and you're done.

When you pedal you're pedaling the "crank motor" instead of the hub motor. When you press the thumb throttle it turns the crank motor but not the pedals (freewheel remember?). And when you pedal hard, the motor can detect the amount torque on the strain guage and provide the proper assist.

The advantage is that you can use the bike's own gearing as a mechanical advantage for various terrain. And since you can switch to a higher gear when going fast, the "crank motor" won't be spinning quite as fast. Slower RPM = more battery life.

The only thing I haven't figured out yet is how to run the wiring to the "crank motor".
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Old 05-27-07, 01:51 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by outrunner
$Lithium polymer power! Only 5 ounces per 2AH or 6AH per pound at 12V!!!

Note with Lipolys you can run a motor at 12V and amps above 50A no problem!!!
Chainging together lipolys in series to get voltage over does the amount of amps available and is why packs sound so expensive that way. Keep it at 12V and in paralell and the money problems are solved with hundreds of amps available in power.
Hi,

technically speaking, I doubt it that you did run your 12 V lipo pack as it was shown on the vid. within recommended current limits of the pack... Most lipo packs will not support more then 2C current, so if you have 4 AH lipo then you should have some current limitation circuitry which will limit motor current to 8 A... the motor you used can draw 50 A so that would mean you would need lots (= 12) of lipo-packs in parallel to have enough reserve for steep hills.

cu
Zardo

Last edited by Zardo; 05-27-07 at 02:01 PM.
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Old 05-27-07, 02:16 PM
  #30  
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I like the ingenuity and inventiveness shown here, but prefer the simplicity of a hub motor. Snap a bottom bracket, break either chain, etc, with this setup and you're stranded. With a hub motor on the front wheel you have 2 completely independant powertrains, either of which can get you home.
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Old 05-29-07, 03:14 PM
  #31  
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Hi!!! first time on this forum I like to learn more I appreciate any help! I have a few questions... please lead me to the answer if it has been asked before.

when using a motor driving the pedals set up as pictured above,

Does the rider have the option of using it only to assist pedaling or the motor has to be running at all times while riding?, Can it be turn on and off as desire or needed?
Thanks
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Old 06-04-07, 06:59 AM
  #32  
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Now , for us old guys who don't go that far or pedal in the rain.... Friction drive would be a cheap /easy conversion...just a spring /bracket thing with a manual lift ... how what would be the best (and easiest) way to support the motor shaft , no gears or belts please...how about a simple box frame and a bearing on each end for the friction drive shaft... Pretty simple , and not too $$$ like some of these conversions ...
I just need to go about total 12 miles to our closest store and back , on flat roads in nice weather only ...speed ...12-15mph would be nice ...Geezer power, not Gasoline ...
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Old 06-04-07, 12:52 PM
  #33  
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Look up the EVwarrior, I'm sure you could figure out how to make something workable along it's lines if you're crafty. (Or just get a used EV warrior, should be doable for under 250$)
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Old 06-12-07, 07:17 AM
  #34  
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But I'd rather MAKE something for powering my own chopperbike creations...CRUISER...
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Old 06-23-07, 04:39 AM
  #35  
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Cool! But as was mentioned once or twice in this thread...how durable is this? maybe I am old fashioned but I have always thought that there was a bit of a direct relationship between weight and durability. If someone has a setup like this...I wish you would take it out on the road for 10 or 12 hours with spare sets of batteries and run them continually to see what happens.
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Old 06-25-07, 09:43 AM
  #36  
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Well made /setup is different from some hack job...and both can be just as expensive...or not...
Pen , if only I could ...???hahahahaha I wish too ...
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Old 06-29-07, 05:18 AM
  #37  
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to Zardo:
Hi,

technically speaking, I doubt it that you did run your 12 V lipo pack as it was shown on the vid. within recommended current limits of the pack... Most lipo packs will not support more then 2C current, so if you have 4 AH lipo then you should have some current limitation circuitry which will limit motor current to 8 A... the motor you used can draw 50 A so that would mean you would need lots (= 12) of lipo-packs in parallel to have enough reserve for steep hills.

cu
Zardo
you are speaking about batts from 6-7 years ago..
we meanwhile use for 5 years batts that can handle 5-8C contiouse
we use since 3-4years batts, that can handle 10-12C continouse
we use since 2-3years batts, that are rated for 20C continouse (and in reality are able to handle 15-18C without cooling)
and since this years the first 30C-continouse-batts (again: 20C continouse without cooling) are on the market and used..

for your 4000mAh-example:
http://www.elektromodellflug.de/akku-test/kokam-30c.htm
look at the first two diagramms, measured from Gerd Giese, a unindependent batt-tester in the rc-community

so you see: the battery can deliver 25C continously, reaching 66C without cooling
lets stay under 60C, still that are 20C or 80A current..

a 3s Lipo would give 10,35Volt average current at 80A ---> so around 830Watt power
not bad for a little tiny 320g battery !

of course you can not expect several 100 cycles at such load..

so: let stay at 10C... you will see many 100 cycles
and still: that are 40A current

for cycle-test with high current look here (test in English language):
http://www.slowflyer.ch/downloads/tn07004.pdf

to sum up the test:
batt was charged with 2C (so 30-45min for full charging)
discharged with peaks up to 120A (30C), laverage discharge was 9C (=36A)

after 360cycles there were 92% left of original capacity when pack was new,
voltagelevel at 12C continouse discharge 99% of original voltage when pack was new

so 2C-Lipos you mentioned --> this kind of low-power-lipos are used for laptops, handies, and unfortunatly on many e-bikes as well..

Last edited by Kraeuterbutter; 06-29-07 at 05:33 AM.
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Old 09-10-07, 12:09 PM
  #38  
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Hey Outrunner,

I am VERY impressed about what you have done. This has sparked other innovative ideas for me. Can you please list where you got each of your parts, so that I can buy and test/improve this idea.

Thanks!
Tony
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Old 09-15-07, 12:19 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Kraeuterbutter View Post
to Zardo:

you are speaking about batts from 6-7 years ago..
we meanwhile use for 5 years batts that can handle 5-8C contiouse
we use since 3-4years batts, that can handle 10-12C continouse
we use since 2-3years batts, that are rated for 20C continouse (and in reality are able to handle 15-18C without cooling)
and since this years the first 30C-continouse-batts (again: 20C continouse without cooling) are on the market and used..

for your 4000mAh-example:
http://www.elektromodellflug.de/akku-test/kokam-30c.htm
look at the first two diagramms, measured from Gerd Giese, a unindependent batt-tester in the rc-community

so you see: the battery can deliver 25C continously, reaching 66C without cooling
lets stay under 60C, still that are 20C or 80A current..

a 3s Lipo would give 10,35Volt average current at 80A ---> so around 830Watt power
not bad for a little tiny 320g battery !

of course you can not expect several 100 cycles at such load..

so: let stay at 10C... you will see many 100 cycles
and still: that are 40A current

for cycle-test with high current look here (test in English language):
http://www.slowflyer.ch/downloads/tn07004.pdf

to sum up the test:
batt was charged with 2C (so 30-45min for full charging)
discharged with peaks up to 120A (30C), laverage discharge was 9C (=36A)

after 360cycles there were 92% left of original capacity when pack was new,
voltagelevel at 12C continouse discharge 99% of original voltage when pack was new

so 2C-Lipos you mentioned --> this kind of low-power-lipos are used for laptops, handies, and unfortunatly on many e-bikes as well..
Kokam packs have been around for many years as the best RC packs and they keep improving unlike many other lipo cell manufactures.With a 50 lb ebike including the motor and 7 lb battery you can expect a 25 mile range at 20 mph even without pedaling if your motor is above 90 % efficient. For each additional pack add on another 25 miles in range and 7 more pounds.Or 3.6 miles per pound of Kokam lithium polymer batteries discharged to 80% of the packs rating for long life.
For $50. you could get a NEW 300 watt, 600 watt peak ZAP motor and roller on it.
http://tinyurl.com/2gzral

Last edited by EbikeHawaii; 10-09-07 at 05:26 PM.
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Old 09-17-07, 08:19 AM
  #40  
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Does anyone have a power curve for this motor? It looks great, but I, too, am a little old fashioned and often think that light things will not be so durable. Still, If I could find one in China I would be willing to slap it on my bike and give it a go.
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Old 09-24-07, 07:24 AM
  #41  
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It should be even easier to rig up a NIMH pack that would easily power the bike ...New Nimh have developed , and are Cheaper and easier to charge than the lipos ...Like the idea of front wheel drive of any sort , no modifying the chain drive business... Simple , Logical !!!!
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Old 11-11-08, 10:01 PM
  #42  
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Slofly electric rocket tube airbike 30mph

I have a new super easy electric bike that can go about 25mph flat and it combines with you pedaling, free wheel. It is lighter than any other ebike kit out.

Please check it out and order one and I promise 40mph+ in less than one month.

Part 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmv7EOP0NF0

Part 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElDoj...watch_response

A video will be made on flat ground to test and show range. It should be about 10mi per 5ah

Please let me know some various ranges per battery size of bikes out there.
This works out much more efficient than expected and will do much better with a larger less pitch prop and larger motor.
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Old 11-11-08, 10:44 PM
  #43  
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This thing is an accident waiting to happen without a cage around the prop. Yours only chewed up a table, but my friend lost a finger to to his RC airplane.

Seriously.
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Old 11-12-08, 06:40 AM
  #44  
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It is the most dangerous vehicle ever without a cage.
Too bad there is no cage available at the store for it, or someone to help gear it onto the chain which is the goal.
Any ideas how to cage it or gear it?

I am not able to build a cage or gear system at this time and need your help.

Geared will be more efficient than direct drive and have a wider power range.
It will also have a high top speed in high gear and have very much torque in low gear.

This dangerous thing exists because I was unable after a long time to get help even identifying parts online.
This is reluctantly built because I am drooling to use the motor geared but not in a position to install it.
Posts on danger for safety sake are appreciated of course.

This project is to show how light and fun these type of motors and batteries are and attract help to get it onto bikes cheaply. If there is an Ebike kit out there with over 1000w, brushless, under $500 and not direct drive let me know so I do not have to have this idea on my back any more.

The video should excite you about the light weight battery technology and high power in a small light package motor technologies. Does it? Its over 2 years I've been posting and asking for help with brushless and lithium batteries.
Typical pattern is resistance then the next wave is replies saying there already is bikes with lithium.
That is the case now of course but I still can not find a geared one at an affordable cost (under $500)

We can bump it up to over 6000watts and have a shoe box size of batteries about half the weight of lead acid with double the power and triple the ability to dump power for the longest range lightest bike you can imagine.

This type of motor and battery combo gives a high power very long range bike which you can carry up stairs easily.
It only takes one hour to charge the packs regardless of their size. Charging at destination is quick and not required if you simply double your supply of batteries (100 mile range reasonable for 2 shoe box size of batteries)

I've been posting and trying to get this done so long that lithium ion has come into usage finally on bikes and there is probably something out. The hub motor is great but I would like something to push me over grass or a dirt clod field in low gear too. There is nothing I can find that can do this under $500 or so.

Post your interest level in having a 1000w to 3000w bike that can push you up steep hills or go over 35mph on flat with a 15 to 30 mile range at under $500.00

Mention your ability and skill to help put it together and we will have an instant build group.

Last edited by outrunner; 11-12-08 at 07:10 AM.
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Old 11-12-08, 08:39 AM
  #45  
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Too bad there is no cage available at the store for it, or someone to help gear it onto the chain which is the goal.
Any ideas how to cage it or gear it?
attach one of these to your rear wheel:
http://www.google.com/products?q=%22...ocket+80+tooth

attach one of these to your motor:
http://www.google.com/products?q=%22...ket+%229+tooth

buy a #25 chain (a go kart type chain).

pick a motor that's around "480kv" and get 3-in-series LiFePO4 battery (about 9.5 volts)

... or about 360kv and 12 volt lifepo4 for the same speed.

Last edited by cerewa; 11-12-08 at 08:42 AM.
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Old 11-12-08, 08:48 AM
  #46  
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Thanks it is elegant for 1:1 ratio thanks!

The front wheel hub motor is the perfect solution just skip the steep hills and dirt fields unless you pedal.
Relatively flat to work? Just switch to lipoly on a hub motor and go double the distance with half the battery weight.

The weakness of the front wheel hub motor is it can not supply low speed torque and high speed riding in one package.
To bring us a dynamic speed and torque range, more fun and lower cost we need chain assist.
With chain assist we still get our gears and the motor is able to help with much force at slow speeds or much speed when traveling fast.
From the first video where the motor is direct drive one person made a nice chain assist.

If we can have a machinist make an adapter for the motor we are able to have a bikeforum open gear project.

I hope for something easier however.
The project calls for gearing through chain.
The brushless motor rpm is reduced to turn small sprocket which powers bike chain with high torque.
First version needs no freewheeling it is a flat ground power test. Legs in the air with pedals spinning around.

How about a piece of wood with the motor mounted on it facing up.
The sprockets are bolted on the wood and the reduced sprocket spins off the side.
The board is simply mounted on the frame and presses down on the chain either behind the main sprocket or in the middle if it has a guide to keep the teeth in the chain under torque.
Does that sound feasible?

Last edited by outrunner; 11-12-08 at 09:09 AM.
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Old 11-12-08, 09:21 AM
  #47  
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Thanks it is elegant for 1:1 ratio thanks!
80tooth/9tooth is about a 9:1 ratio, not 1:1



Oh, but my explanation would run the motor through an unchangeable gear ratio rather than multi-speed, it's true.
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Old 11-12-08, 09:59 AM
  #48  
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It is great for high torque I meant to say consistent ratio.

Well after nobody helps with the geared one or just helps themselves I may give it a go!
Any ideas how to adapt a 6mm or 9mm shaft to one of those bike sprockets with a larger center?
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Old 11-12-08, 04:26 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by outrunner View Post
It is great for high torque I meant to say consistent ratio.

Well after nobody helps with the geared one or just helps themselves I may give it a go!
Any ideas how to adapt a 6mm or 9mm shaft to one of those bike sprockets with a larger center?
You probably know this, but a Crystallite 5303 with 84volts will have tremendous torque and also travels around 65km/hr.

That's a hub motor. I have mine in the front and it's awesome.

You started a great thread and many good ideas on it. Thanks.
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Old 11-12-08, 08:27 PM
  #50  
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The motor is 24lb? Darn that is heavy.
My 1000w motor is less than one pound!

See my point about outrunner motors and lithium polymers not being utilized anywhere but the RC airplane industry.

I had the same issues with the RC airplane industry and their last motors and batteries.
Now the whole industry is switched over.

I'm suprised the first youtube video showed how many people do not understand amps, watts, volts, torque, kv, ac, dc to the point of being totally confused.

I hope someone who knows the lingo people like to hear can take off with this!

Point is the stuff out there is too heavy or too expensive and we have $200 6500w motors that weigh 6-7 pounds or so and the batteries to make it go.

One of you has over $50k in your account and owes it to the world to put something nice together

Thanks!!
By the way I've retired from all this innovation stuff after 20 years of doing it non-stop.
I do not find this rewarding and spent thousands researching ebikes.

The entire Bike kit will go on sale on Ebay tomorrow I'm hoping!!

Thanks again!
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