poet

i'm going for speed. around 35mph top speed + decent range, around ten miles at top speed, or around 15-20 at a "quick" pace. what would be a better setup? i have around a 1000-1500 to spend.

so far i've been looking at these kits:

Cyclone 500 Watt Bicycle Motor Kit

or

the Phoenix 4840

which do you guys think would be better?

also what batteries should i go with?

braxas

Depends, do you plan on pedaling at all?

lol

braxas

poet

yes i do, but i'd still like it to be able to hit a top speed of 30-35mph on motor power alone.

JeanCoutu

If you look up second hand motorcycles, you'll find you can get a good scooter for that price.

BroadwayJoe

Yeah, what he said - while people do it, bicycles were never designed with 30-35mph powered speeds in mind. Frame, wheels, brakes, tires, etc. plus weight of motor, batteries were never intended for that much stress and it's simply not realistic to attempt IMO. 20mph peak is about all air resistance is gonna allow on upright bikes. I'm happy with 15mph and sticking to bike lanes, trails, etc. Still moves faster than traffic - at least I'm moving forward and finding free friendly electricity at most destinations.

Recumbents - different animal altogether and you could reach high speeds fairly safely but not with that budget.

CGameProgrammer

Uh, dude, I've gone 50 mph on a $250 upright Trek mountainbike (with disc brakes added). The air resistance is not a problem at all.

BroadwayJoe

Uh, dude, I said people do it but that doesn't make it sound/safe engineering.

CGameProgrammer

30 mph is perfectly safe, and 35 mph isn't too bad either. Beyond that, it gets dangerous, at least with a regular cheap bicycle (good road bikes or downhill bikes should be fine though).

krushnoi

Perfectly safe if you don't crash that is... Most motorcyclists are doing 30-40mph when they crash and some are fatalities or lingering injuries, on an upright bike it might be worse since you have farther to fall than on a scooter or motorcycle. Plus a bicycle helmet is probably useless at a crash 30+mph.

Abneycat

The "Phoenix 4840" kit is a Crystalyte series 5 running at 48v. In particular, the one which would get you the most speed would be the "Racer" which is probably a Crystalyte 5303, definetly a lower winding count motor at least.

That Cyclone motor is listed as reaching 27mph @ 24v, you would need to increase the voltage to have it match up to the Phoenix and i'm not sure that the Cyclone is meant to do so. Conversly, if you're not attached to your well being, the Phoenix will run at 72v, allowing you to ride down a highway. Thats really not a good idea.

My personal suggestion would be the Crystalyte series 5 (Phoenix) hub, but thats mostly due to personal knowledge of that particular hub and the fact that I know firsthand that they go like rockets if set up properly. Crystalyte is also reliable, and their parts are very open ended and interchangeable, which is the other reason for the vote.

As for the batteries, you should get some idea of personal preference. Reading https://ebikes.ca/batteries.shtml could help you figure it out some more. One thing to mention though, is that a 5 series is already a heavy beast. Packing on another 25lbs in SLA is going to make your bike weigh down like a cow.

I'd be worried about safety. Like others have said, thats a lot of speed to be putting on a bike. I don't personally feel safe with my 48v Crystalyte 406 at full throttle, and the Phoenix will probably put out noticeably more than that. Not going to tell you what to do, but watch yourself and research your setup!

CGameProgrammer

Yes, the only reason to wear a bicycle helmet is so the vents allow you to stay cool when you're working hard pedaling. Anyone who is not pedaling should wear a motorcycle helmet, particularly at those speeds, and they should wear padded motorcycle clothing as well.

BroadwayJoe

30-35mph perfectly safe on a bike that was never intended to be "powered" while carrying an additional 30-90lbs in addition to the rider?

Seriously, I'm not trying to argue or flame here - I admire high performance and pushing things to their limits. I've done it myself - but, that's R&D, testing, etc. It's not a reasonable goal to grab some bike that was never intended to go much over 20mph in the 1st place, hang a bunch of extra weight on the thing, power a wheel and ride it around in traffic at 30-35mph as if it's built to handle those demands just because somebody saw somebody else do it.

Pot holes, road surfaces, debris always seem to appear at the worst moment. Like when traffic prohibits you from weaving around something in the road, etc. You gotta take the hit and you better KNOW wheels, spokes, tires, brakes, frame, mounting hardware can handle it.

What I'm saying to new riders - start-out with the best odds of good performance with respect to safe operation. Enjoy it for what it is while learning what it needs to be. Then make improvements that will get closer to your goals while maintaining a reasonable working safety margin.

Wind is no more problem at 50mph than 20mph? Anbody care to explain that to me???

I believe m/c statistics indicate helmets are proven most effective when people fall over at near a stand still. The whipping action of this type fall slams the head into the ground/pavement and is the cause of most m/c head injuries. Most head injuries and the cycle isn't even moving!

poet

thanks for all the replies guys, and no i don't plan on going over 35mph. i would mostly be going at a cruising speed of 20mph, but would like to have the ability to go faster if need be. just like any car today can go well over 100mph, even thought theirs no real place to do it. again thanks for all the help guys, i guess I'll probably be going with the Phoenix after a little more research.

CGameProgrammer

The rider's weight is variable. In my case I'm 150 lbs and my bike can safely support at least 100 lbs more than that.

When a bike's gearing reaches over 30 mph, one can assume the bike was engineered to support that speed. Anyway my statement was based on my personal extensive experience riding my bike at those speeds -- it feels very well-planted and secure and has held up very well, and yes I ride on roads with tons of potholes. I don't avoid them.

I never said that. You claimed that wind would actually prevent anyone from going 40 mph and I said that it did no such thing; I've gone faster than that while riding perfectly upright, using about 2.8 kW of power. And I don't even feel much wind at that speed.

Have you ridden 35 mph on an e-bike extensively? I have and speak from experience.

JeanCoutu

If you genuinly think that's an ebike you're riding, I'll point out you're as severely reality challenged as Randy Draper and Lowell d00ds.

Lowell_

Considering that people ride 35+mph on pedal only bikes with no suspension, skinny high pressure tires, rim brakes and short wheelbases, I think an E mountain bike with downhill racing components is a lot safer.

You sound like the Ralph Nader of ebikes.

Abneycat

I wouldn't consider it safer. Knobby tires typically found on downhill bikes provide squirrely traction on asphalt, especially as speed goes up. Your overall performance would be poor as well, due to rolling resistance. A bike with a pair of hardpack tires would be a pretty good compromise. High pressure tires are the ideal choice for speed on asphalt.

Downhill bikes also typically feature rear suspension. Having broken a 75kg rated rear rack using only 12kg of SLA batteries before, twice, I would suggest that if you only have a seatpost rack as a mounting option either stick with lithium or mount your batteries in the frame (if applicable). Anything else would be suicide. It would only take one wrong bump packing around a 48v SLA or even NiMH pack on a seatpost rack to send it wedging into your rear tire, bringing your ride to an abrupt and unpleasant end.

You could overcome these problems with hardpack/road tires and a lithium power setup, but,

Honestly, a downhill bike would probably be my last choice for frame style to meet this kind of project. There's a lot to be said for the strength of the frame, but the overall design just isn't optimized for it, not to mention that once its all said and done, downhill bikes are pricey. Very much so. And usually they're used for downhill, but once you add a 20+lb hub motor, attach your controllers, throttle, replace your 8-9 speed cassette shifter with a 7 speed freewheel shifter and so on, you've weakened the bike considerably and pretty much nullified its use as a downhill bike. Those electric hubs would withstand a small drop, but nothing that your bike would. Its pretty much a case of design mismatch.

In my opinion,
If you picked out a cross country bike, you could retain suspension but keep the bike more in line with its design. Going with a steel frame road bike would also be a good choice.

Lowell_

Tires should be pavement types for sure. Maxxis Hookworms are excellent for high speed on road stuff. I've used Maxxis knobbies on pavement, and they definitely wander all over the place at speed, although they do work excellent on the downhll runs of Whistler/Blackcomb.

Note that I said E mountain bike with downhill components. Specifically wheels, brakes and front fork. The frame is open to debate, as the more relaxed head tube angles of downhill frames give better high speed stability, but if you're only talking 35mph it won't make much difference. Same goes for wheelbase, as downhill bikes can stretch out to 48" on some models.

EbikeHawaii

Out of the cheapest mountain bikes Huffys' have quality welds and material in the frames that can take heavy weight and abuse!! This arose out of law suits when huffy had frames that broke at one point from cheaper production methods.Some of the brakes on them also are strong and work great for heavy loads going down hills at 45 MPH.Both wheels should be replaced with quality rims and hubs to support at least a 2.5 wide tire.For the lest resistance in a fat tire you might want to slect one with a small hard rubber flat in the center.Above 15 mph you may also want to invest in steel or Kevelar /Carbon belted tubless DOD style bicycle tires to make high speed rides 99% safer.One blow out next to a highway or solw moving cars you will probably be history! Your life is worth as much as you invest.Pedaling around corners at above 20 mph can be vary foolish inless you are a pro at being foolish... A good high voltage controller will make most 500 watt motors go 45 mph on a bicycle, the question is with how much pedaling and motor efficiency? And how long will it or YOU or both last? Recumbent highway racers may consider a upside down motorcycle skid plate on top or their helmet in case the cars dont see the flag on their antenna..
LOL

geebee

Ebikehawaii, is completely wrong as usual.
eg. 500w on a MTB is ~26mph
1000w is only ~33 mph
And that is running high pressure slicks.

A velomobile will just about hit 45mph on 500w, and a velomobile is along way from a Huffy MTB.

Lowell_

Well he's certainly wrong if he means 500W, but overvolting a '500W' motor might give more power, provided it doesn't turn into a smoking disc like Ken Trough's Hawaii Pancake Special did.

EbikeHawaii

Like I said with a high voltage controller a 500 watt motor should get to 45 mph. Oviously you would need a hi voltage battery pack and your peak motor wattage may exceed 2000 watts your speed will depend on many variubles.

EbikeHawaii

There ya go lieing again.. Any motor will burn up with the wrong gearing and a fat ass 350 lb rider going up a hill with a unfused motor that is not timmed right or a hall sensor is broken.. Gearing a motor WRONG is certanly no falt of the motor.Selling a defective motor is No falt of mine if I had nothing to do with the manufacturing or sale of it.
What is funny is that the same type of design made it up a 10,005 ft volcano in 3 hours and has lasted over 25,000 miles of ebike use.

BroadwayJoe

Well, I never said anything about 40mph, if I did - where? Main point is the wind resistance between 20mph and 50mph is HUGE and if you think otherwise - go right ahead. Enjoy yourself, I'm sorry this thread has become what it has become with "Nader" name-calling and wissing matches to spare.

Nope, haven't ridden an 35mph eBike extensively because I'm a motorcycle rider and after 250k miles street riding, I know what's too fast for what equipment and situation. I do ride about 50 miles per week on an eBike but I'm sure that's nothing for most of you.

Say what you will - this thread has become a disgrace to the chap who started it simply asking about motors. I'm very sorry to have contributed to this downfall and will remove myself from any further discussion. Best of luck to the original poster and I hope they find what they're looking for.

EbikeHawaii

Find a disposable Currie I-Zip. They are lighter, cheaper and have slightly better performance than the two listed.