I went for a longer ride on my 800Li today for fun, generally taking it easy on both my legs and the accelerator. I used 3/4 of the battery capacity (16 AH) in 34 miles of bike path, road, hills, dirt road, and single track, pedaling lightly all the time. The advertised 30 mile range is easily attainable - just not at constant full throttle in the city.

By the way, Optibike's bottom bracket incorporates a brushless motor, reduction gearing, cooling system, freewheel, bearings, and spindle. It is the logical extension of taking the sort of motor bdcain is so excited about (though one with about half the power) and developing it into a worthy drive system, including safety, reliability, and usability enhancements.

unime, when you ordered your bike, did you get the option of what kind of tires or seat you wanted? What other options other than the color did you have? And when the bike arrived at your place, was it all put together boxed up on a skid?

Options are listed on the web site [http://www.optibike.com].

There are three tire choices, all from Schwalbe: Marathon Supreme, Marathon XR, and Fat Albert. No saddle options, though the stock WTB feels comfortable enough for me. They also insisted on including WTB momentum pedals which I have no use for (I'm riding with Atomlabs GI platform pedals).

I live in Colorado, so I picked up the bike at the factory. Pictures in the owners manual show it crated up in heavy cardboard packaging with the bike bolted down (to a piece of wood?) at the dropouts. Wheels, pedals, and fenders are separated from the bike.

I'd like to see the Optibike company design and market a bottom bracket pedelec drive that other bicycle manufacturers could incorporate into their products. It could be used on recumbants, commuters, utility bikes, and velomobiles. The Optibike is really nice but too expensive and only comes in one style and frame size. If they don't do it someone else will.

Would people pay $13,000 for an Optibike? Yes they would seeing that the OB1 Limited Edition is sold out. But they only made 24 of those models for 2008. I think the very first time I viewed their homepage they only sold the 400 at the time. Seems like they are getting better and better year after year.

It's safe to sell the best product at the highest price because the rich always have expendable income. US companies seem incapable of making stuff for the mass market.

unime, how do you like your Optibike so far. I was thinking of getting the 800Li

I love my 800Li. Although I haven't ridden one, I assume the 600Li is also a very respectable choice. Optibike is constantly developing improvements (like a real control panel some time in the future), but the fundamental working parts are solid.

I am happy to answer specific questions, but you might prefer to ask them on the optibike google group, where you can get more than one opinion.

Cool, I'll check that site out

A mature couple on a couple Optibikes went by my house about a month ago. I knew they were electric bikes before I saw them as I could hear them coming quite a ways off surprisingly, but I do live on a hill. I commented to my friend that I was talking to out in the drive that "there goes about $16k worth of bikes". He just gave me a blank expression. The woman said something about "Look, no hands" but they were firmly in place on the bars, but she wasn't pedaling. I think she meant to say, no pedaling? Looked like they were having a good time and they were headed the right way as they headed in to the park entrance behind my house. I have never seen them again in town but I would like to run in to them and swap out rides sometime to try one out.

I do agree with the sentiment here that you can build a very trick electric bike for that much. But not everyone can or wants to. Doesn't sound like they are totally problem free yet either, but what mechanical device is?

Another thought I had also was I wonder how Optibike deals with the 20mph limit on top speed for electric assist bicycles that is pretty much the ruling for all states and certainly a Federal regulation? I know it is easy to make your own machine and look the other way at that rule, as it is pretty dumb, but for someone that is engaged in sales and manufacturing that advertises illegal speed for their product I would think it might legal problems at some point? One of the big reasons I have gone to ICE is the speed allowable is 30mph. 20 just isn't enough as I can pedal a bike that fast and it doesn't get you integrated in to the flow of traffic on surface streets.

Hopefully the face of all motor assist bikes will have changed immensely in 5 years time. Along with the attitude of the general public and the laws governing their use.

Since they are constantly improving on the Optibikes, it makes me wonder if today's Optibike might look obsolete in 5 years.

I'm sure Optibike builds a great product - but I really can't believe someone would spend so much money for an electric bike! With such a wide range of options available (ie: IZIP Electric Bikes, EZIP, EG, eZee, conversion kits, etc), why pay $10,000 for an electric bike when you can pay $500 to $2000? Just seems rediculous to me even if they include some extra features and more power. It's only 800 watts! You can buy an electric scooter (from X-Treme) with 3500 watts of power for $4600! Just my 2 cents...

Other posters have mentioned the legal issues with this bike, but it should be mentioned again: Federal law limits electric bikes to 750 watts of power and 20 mph (in the U.S.). It sounds like this product exceeds these limitations which means it can't be classified as a bicycle. It's very unlikely law enforcement will ever catch this, but do you want to risk it with a $10,000 bicycle?

I guess if someone is willing to pay this much for a bike, more power to them! But to me, it seems rediculous...

Yes and no. They seem to have dialed in the motors pretty well with the newest (gold anodized) version. I don't expect to see any changes in the frame for while. The controller is easily upgraded at home with a USB connection to a PC. The three LED display is extremely primitive. I hope they will offer the new unit as an upgrade when they eventually bring it to market.

It had been awhile since I had visited the Opti site and it was surprising to see them advertising "2000 mpg" there. I looked for evidence in support of this but couldn't find any. How do you translate amp hrs in to mpg in a scientific manner that would allow this type of statement? Also they claim 100 miles per charge at 30+ mph which seems like a stretch even with an extra battery pack? Their obvious flaunting of the Consumer Product Safety Commission regulations, 750w/20mph, on their site seems riske' also. Not sure what the benefits of that youtube of the mechanical engineer are for their cause either. The guy with two of each was pretty funny also, now that is how to achieve a smaller carbon foot print.

I hope they are putting some time and energy in to getting legislation enacted. Otherwise it just looks like another scheme where those that can afford to flaunt the rules and will be able to hire a lawyer to fix it when necessary.

I've been paying close attention to the e-bike business since buying my Optibike, and the more I learn the happier I am with my choice. There is nothing out there that is really comparable. The motorized bottom bracket is the cleanest chain drive system I can imagine (and I have a pretty good imagination). The internal battery and electronics are mounted out of sight and protected from the elements inside the frame. The heavy parts are isolated from the road or trail by high quality full suspension components. Efficiency to the road was measured at 87% by an owner, and, unlike hub motors which operate without changeable gears, that efficiency is available over a wide range of speeds.

The 800Li is a hybrid bike for people who want to ride pretty fast and well as those who like to ride hard. 25 mph now feels slow to me, and I often ride at 30mph or more. The controller boosts the power to 2400 watts during acceleration, so you might well be surprised at just how lively it is when the light turns green. At least one Optibike owner is an ex downhill racer. Another commutes year round over hills in Colorado's high country. For my part, I ride my mountain bike hard and wanted an e-bike that could take whatever I chose to throw at it. I also love the mountains and needed a bike that could do some serious climbing.

If you can't see the difference between an Optibike and the rest of the field, might I suggest taking your best bike to the base of the Pike's peak road and see how far you get. An Optibike rider made the 19 mile, 7000' elevation gain trip to the summit in 1:40.

Regarding the price, let me say this: The initial cost is often forgotten after you have owned something you love for a while and plan to keep using; while the cost of a bargain that did not meet your needs may remain a bitter memory.

The US Code of Federal Regulations defines the official petroleum equivalent fuel economy as 82.049 Kw = 1 Gal [thanks go to the Tesla owners discussion site for this link: http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...446-filed.pdf].


100 mile range is certainly possible with the 400 model running an extra (external) battery, modest speeds and moderate pedaling. I can't say whether 30 mph is reasonably achievable on the 400 watt model, but 25 mph is easy enough when my 800Li is in 250 watt eco mode. Averaging 30 mph for 100 miles, I'd guess no problem for Lance Armstrong, big problem for me.

The CSPC does not control what can be ridden on the streets - they specify safety requirement for products sold to consumers. Individual states and localities define the requirements for powered bicycles that are used on roads, trails, etc. The low power Optibike models likely meet CSPC requirements. My understanding is that my 800Li qualifies as a moped in Colorado, and I have it insured in that category.

Look more closely at the $5000 Optibike 400 model. It fits within the category and is far more capable than a 400 watt hub motor bike. Still, demand is strong for the more powerful models and I don't blame them for selling what their customers want.
:thumb:

"The CSPC does not control what can be ridden on the streets -"

Actually they do in the case of electric bicycles.

http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-...=f:publ319.107

My understanding is that my 800Li qualifies as a moped in Colorado, and I have it insured in that category.

Better read through this:

http://www.state.co.us/gov_dir/leg_d...ersDevMemo.pdf Colorado appears to have some generous regulations regarding light weight vehicles but in order for you to qualify you would need a full compliment of lights including turn signals as an electric motorcycle.

From one of your other posts: "I used 3/4 of the battery capacity (16 AH) in 34 miles of bike path, road, hills, dirt road, and single track, pedaling lightly all the time. The advertised 30 mile range is easily attainable - just not at constant full throttle in the city."

That is 2.125 ah per mile which times 82 = 174.25 mpg. Nowhere close to 2000 mpg.

Fair enough that their 400w model meets the regs. But $5k is alot of scratch for something that you can get for alot cheaper that has similar performance as has been said here before. And it seems like they are trying to push the performance end with their current marketing anyway. But it seems to be working, cheesy leds and all.

I am not out to get Optibike mind you. I just like truth in advertising.

States set their own vehicle laws, and, while IANAL, I have looked at some of them and can't find any reference (direct or indirect) to the CPSC regs. Maybe you can provide one, but simply providing a link to those regs is not evidence that they have any bearing on what I can ride in Colorado. Some states (California, for example) have requirement that plainly disagree with those CPSC standards.

You might be right. I based my claim on a discussion with a the owner of a local gas engine bicycle assist shop.

That's not quite right. 2.125 Ah per mile works out to 85 Wh/mile (since the bike has a 40V battery) or, equivalently, (1/0.085) mile/kWh. If we agree that 1 gallon of gas = 82.049kWh, my mileage equivalence is (82/0.085) = 970 mpg.

I believe the folks at Optibike pulled a fast one when they issued a press release that talks about selling the only 2000mpg hybrid vehicle in the US, and then discussed the best selling 800Li. They were referring to different bikes - the 400 model should get the claimed 2000mpg, whie the 800Li is their best selling model.

You can go faster with a 72 volt Crystalyte 5xxx, but you'll have a much heavier bike with a 23 pound wheel that is far less efficient at low speeds. If that's what you want, I'm happy for you. Really. No other option I know of has anything close to the acceleration of my Optibike, the overall efficiency, the great handling, etc. I asked Jeremy how far up Pike's peak his best bike would make it. How far will yours?

Seriously, I'd like to know what bike you would put up against an Optibike that will get similar performance. It is hard to find peers if you limit yourself to one dimension of performance, but if you consider cruising, hill climbing, acceleration and handling together it is hard to find anything remotely comparable.

I live near enough the factory to have visited them several times and met many of the characters who work there. The company is run by a mechanical engineer whose focus is on the drivetrain and mechanics of the bikes. Marketing, user interface, and growth have clearly been neglected, but they really do build a great product and support their customers. I agree with the general tone of your criticism and have written to the company expressing my opinion in no uncertain terms.

That link is how the Federal Gov't views electric assist bicycles. The other plainly states CO. law as it pertains to them:

[/QUOTE]Low-speed electric bicycle. Electric bicycles are bikes with operable pedals and an
attached battery-powered electric motor. Federal law defines a low-speed electric bicycle
as a two- or three-wheeled vehicle with fully operable pedals and an electric motor with a
power output of less than 750 watts, with a maximum speed, when powered by the motor,
of less than 20 mph (15 U.S.C. 2085). Low-speed bicycles do not meet federal definitions
for motor-vehicles and are subject to U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commission
regulations. [/QUOTE]

[/QUOTE]And CA. Law:

406. (a) A "motorized bicycle" or "moped" is any two-wheeled or
three-wheeled device having fully operative pedals for propulsion by
human power, or having no pedals if powered solely by electrical
energy, and an automatic transmission and a motor which produces less
than 2 gross brake horsepower and is capable of propelling the
device at a maximum speed of not more than 30 miles per hour on level
ground.
(b) A "motorized bicycle" is also a device that has fully
operative pedals for propulsion by human power and has an electric
motor that meets all of the following requirements:
(1) Has a power output of not more than 1,000 watts.
(2) Is incapable of propelling the device at a speed of more than
20 miles per hour on ground level.
(3) Is incapable of further increasing the speed of the device
when human power is used to propel the motorized bicycle faster than
20 miles per hour.
(4) Every manufacturer of motorized bicycles, as defined in this
subdivision, shall provide a disclosure to buyers that advises buyers
that their existing insurance policies may not provide coverage for
these bicycles and that they should contact their insurance company
or insurance agent to determine if coverage is provided.
(c) The disclosure required under paragraph (4) of subdivision (b)
shall meet both of the following requirements:
(1) The disclosure shall be printed in not less than 14-point
boldface type on a single sheet of paper that contains no information
other than the disclosure.
(2) The disclosure shall include the following language in capital
letters:
"YOUR INSURANCE POLICIES MAY NOT PROVIDE COVERAGE FOR ACCIDENTS
INVOLVING THE USE OF THIS BICYCLE. TO DETERMINE IF COVERAGE IS
PROVIDED YOU SHOULD CONTACT YOUR INSURANCE COMPANY OR AGENT."[/QUOTE]


States either follow Fed regs, other states or set their own path for their own regs, but any bikes that are brought in to this country for sale legally should meet those requirements, as well as those that produce them in the US. Not much to be done here other than lobby to modify the regulations in to a more realistic environment for not only electric bikes but all Low Speed Vehicles. But that will take a concerted effort unless someone comes up with a million $'s to throw around like Segway did.


[/QUOTE]You might be right. I based my claim on a discussion with a the owner of a local gas engine bicycle assist shop.[/QUOTE]

And he was correct in his view for gas engine bicycles which are limited to 49cc and 30 mph federally and under many states including CO.
[/QUOTE]Motorscooter and motorbicycle. A motorscooter and motorbicycle are defined as
every motor vehicle designed to travel on not more than three wheels in contact with the
ground, a cylinder capacity not exceeding 50 cubic centimeters, and an automatic
transmission which produces a maximum design speed of not more than
30 miles per hour (mph) on a flat surface.[/QUOTE]

And CA as referenced above 406 (a).


[/QUOTE]That's not quite right. 2.125 Ah per mile works out to 85 Wh/mile (since the bike has a 40V battery) or, equivalently, (1/0.085) mile/kWh. If we agree that 1 gallon of gas = 82.049kWh, my mileage equivalence is (82/0.085) = 970 mpg.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I went to bed last night knowing my math was off, but still I doubt the 400, unless way more pedaling is done than motor, has the battery to pull off 100 miles unless they carry more than one which raises weight level and compromises handling. The mpg is secondary really because there are alternative ways to gain energy for electric and ICE motors that are environmentally non invasive, like wind, solar, hydro and bio fuels. Getting the best mpg or ah out of either is certainly the main goal though for ultimate sustainability.

[/QUOTE]I believe the folks at Optibike pulled a fast one when they issued a press release that talks about selling the only 2000mpg hybrid vehicle in the US, and then discussed the best selling 800Li. They were referring to different bikes - the 400 model should get the claimed 2000mpg, whie the 800Li is their best selling model.[/QUOTE]

That is not clear on their website, as I said they are pushing the performance aspect. More power to them and their product does have good performance, but just don't guild the lily.


[/QUOTE]You can go faster with a 72 volt Crystalyte 5xxx, but you'll have a much heavier bike with a 23 pound wheel that is far less efficient at low speeds. If that's what you want, I'm happy for you. Really. No other option I know of has anything close to the acceleration of my Optibike, the overall efficiency, the great handling, etc. I asked Jeremy how far up Pike's peak his best bike would make it. How far will yours?[/QUOTE]

How about we skip Pikes Peak, it has been done already, how about the Triple Bypass? Or a motor assist RAAM?

[/QUOTE]Seriously, I'd like to know what bike you would put up against an Optibike that will get similar performance. It is hard to find peers if you limit yourself to one dimension of performance, but if you consider cruising, hill climbing, acceleration and handling together it is hard to find anything remotely comparable.[/QUOTE]

Let's just assume that there is. Keep in mind that your bike gains that overall performance through the use of your gearing system that is not automatic as per your states and most others regs, see bold(s) above. Is that a good reg? I don't think so but there it sets and will stay that way until it changes.

[/QUOTE]I live near enough the factory to have visited them several times and met many of the characters who work there. The company is run by a mechanical engineer whose focus is on the drivetrain and mechanics of the bikes. Marketing, user interface, and growth have clearly been neglected, but they really do build a great product and support their customers.[/QUOTE]

No doubt they have a good team of folks on this that are interested in the big picture, getting folks out of gas guzzlers for shorter trips for one. And on to bicycles for another. For the greater good though they should be setting a better example in regards to current regs or have a strong lobbying effort going on to make the regs different.

[/QUOTE]I agree with the general tone of your criticism and have written to the company expressing my opinion in no uncertain terms.[/QUOTE]

As I said before, not picking on Optibike as it is on the right track. The legal aspect of motor assist biking interests me because it is the key to its success I feel along with those pertaining to LSV's in general. The current laws are in line with reality up to a point but there are some mods needed that would bring companies like Optibike in to compliance. It won't get done flaunting the existing ones however. Thanks for the interaction on this as it helps me to better understand the situation myself.

Sorry about the quote thing, hopefully tis not too hard to read. And this is a solution to your LED issue? http://www.ebikes.ca/drainbrain.shtml

Optibike took top honors (along side one other entrant) in the 2006 Tour del Sol, by traveling 104 miles in less than for hours. See how far you can get on any other general purpose upright ebike. Yes, it had an extra Li-ion pack, but that's an impressive ride for any ebike. Regarding handling, several Opti owners prefer to carry their external battery in a backpack.

Really! Again, how far can you go on your e-bike? Wouldn't you like more range? Increasing efficiency is like adding extra battery capacity. Even though Optibike puts large batteries in their bikes, the high efficiency (mpg) makes a big contribution toward the vehicle's range. Efficiency also allows motors to be smaller and run cooler. There is a lot more to efficiency than being green (though that's important, too).

And you point is??? Optibike's long distance capability is hard to equal, and I don't know of anything remotely as fun that can go the distance. Regarding the triple bypass, only geared ebikes need apply, ruling out almost everything you could reasonably build at home. And, alas, I am not optimistic about the possibility of a fully electric RAAM capable bike in the forseeable future.

Oh please. They sell a completely legal product and make no claims about the legal use of the high powered models. Enforcement of e-bike laws strongly depends on the jurisdiction. In Boulder, Co, for example, it is illegal to ride any motorized bikes (including those meeting the CPSC requirements) on trail, yet their bicycle coordinator encourages people to ride those trails with the motor off. The Optibike 800Li has a 250 watt mode that would comply with CPSC requirement if it were always on, and I believe there is a very strong possibility that my bike would be treated by local law enforcement as a compliant ebike if I rode in that mode. Frankly, however, there are times when 25mph is the worst of both worlds - too fast to safely ride hugging the curb or next to parked cars (especially if other bikes are present) and too slow to keep up with traffic - so I'm often glad for the extra power and don't lose any sleep over the fine points of law.

By the way, I have served on the board of a non-profit that contemplated lobbying. I think I have a pretty good idea of the effort involved in advocacy and lobbying, and I don't think you have the slightest idea of the work required to mount a "strong lobbying effort". The suggestion that a tiny company struggling to finish their product has the resources to mount an actual lobbying campaign is, in my opinion, laughable.

I'm guessing that $10,000 to an Optibike owner is like us spending $50. It's not a lot of money to some. And why buy an Optibike when you can spend close to $2000.00 for a IZIP. I had an IZIP Enlightened. I sold it in fairly new condition for $250, just so I can get it out of my sight. I would have thrown it over some cliff, but I thought someone could play with it for $250.00. Chinese junk

He who laughs last......
 

Whatever Unime. I believe I have made my point several times here but you keep missing it. So it goes.

I lived in Colorado for 20 years and somehow thankfully escaped the viewpoint that many share there that the sun rises and sets only within its borders and that money can buy happiness.

Just so happens money is one of the worlds few renewable resources. If I had the discretionary income I would love to have an Optibike.

Thanks for reply's
 

I realize I could buy a motorcycle for that price, however unfortunately, I have lost my drivers license for a few years and the law will not permit me to register fuel powered vehicles at this time. Thanks all, anyways

It would be nice to have a motorcycle and an Optibike.