Why modify a legal ebike?
10-19-08, 01:42 AM
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Why modify a legal ebike?
Hi,
I was wondering if we are taking a good thing, and a legal thing, and screwing it all up for ourselves when we push the limits of ebike design?
My schwinn is barely legal, if I overvolt it, or add a faster gear ratio, or put on a stronger motor....all of these things destroy the legal protection that I have by the new classifications for power assisted bicycles.
In affect, I'll be riding a motorized vehicle without the correct insurance and licensing.
Isn't that one of the reasons that we used to put off buying an electric bike? I know that I never really took the idea serious until I learned that it was legal.
Anyways, I don't mean to put anyone on the spot. I have been drooling at some of the modification that are being made to ebike. I've even considered overvolting my bike, too.
Except, if I ever meet a knowledgeable police officer that enforces the law, I could find myself up on charges for operating an uninsured motorvehicle on public streets.
I'm not sure that this is worth it to me, heck, part of this hobby is still the exercise, right?
all your thoughts will be apreciated
Regards
Tyler
I was wondering if we are taking a good thing, and a legal thing, and screwing it all up for ourselves when we push the limits of ebike design?
My schwinn is barely legal, if I overvolt it, or add a faster gear ratio, or put on a stronger motor....all of these things destroy the legal protection that I have by the new classifications for power assisted bicycles.
In affect, I'll be riding a motorized vehicle without the correct insurance and licensing.
Isn't that one of the reasons that we used to put off buying an electric bike? I know that I never really took the idea serious until I learned that it was legal.
Anyways, I don't mean to put anyone on the spot. I have been drooling at some of the modification that are being made to ebike. I've even considered overvolting my bike, too.
Except, if I ever meet a knowledgeable police officer that enforces the law, I could find myself up on charges for operating an uninsured motorvehicle on public streets.
I'm not sure that this is worth it to me, heck, part of this hobby is still the exercise, right?
all your thoughts will be apreciated
Regards
Tyler
10-19-08, 02:46 AM
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People often do want a little extra speed or output - for me, it was certainly torque which was the deciding factor, as the Crystalyte 408 wasn't up to my standards for heavy cargo use in hilly areas. From a human view, novice riders may find high speeds intimidating, but a good rider can handle speeds well above the limits, and that desire to do so can be nagging.
Ultimately though, due to the very low aerodynamics of my old Xtracycle, not even overvolting it brought it above legal speed limits, interestingly enough - so in this case, modifying it simply brought it up to snuff, and not above and beyond. It was pretty gutless in extremely demanding conditions before the increase.
To some degree, I believe that the legal limits are often poorly designed - particularly in wattage limitations, which do nothing to regulate the actual real output of a motor (compare a 400w direct drive hub to a gear reduction hub, then to a frame mounted motor that runs through the drivetrain. *Big* differences all around). I would have no qualms about completely ignoring this poorly designed section many jurisdictions seem to have, as its quite useless as a true power gauge.
I think though, if someone is wanting to far exceed legal design that they should take it upon themselves to simply have the responsibility to get the proper vehicle and licensing. More than individual risk, e-bikes are "pilot" programs in many areas, and the sins of the few could affect the ability of the many to enjoy electric bikes at all.
Due to a recent accident where I was hit by a rogue driver, I can no longer put in as much effort on my own behalf as before, so the new bike will have an even higher output, as it may be needed to operate entirely without me in some cases.
Ultimately though, due to the very low aerodynamics of my old Xtracycle, not even overvolting it brought it above legal speed limits, interestingly enough - so in this case, modifying it simply brought it up to snuff, and not above and beyond. It was pretty gutless in extremely demanding conditions before the increase.
To some degree, I believe that the legal limits are often poorly designed - particularly in wattage limitations, which do nothing to regulate the actual real output of a motor (compare a 400w direct drive hub to a gear reduction hub, then to a frame mounted motor that runs through the drivetrain. *Big* differences all around). I would have no qualms about completely ignoring this poorly designed section many jurisdictions seem to have, as its quite useless as a true power gauge.
I think though, if someone is wanting to far exceed legal design that they should take it upon themselves to simply have the responsibility to get the proper vehicle and licensing. More than individual risk, e-bikes are "pilot" programs in many areas, and the sins of the few could affect the ability of the many to enjoy electric bikes at all.
Due to a recent accident where I was hit by a rogue driver, I can no longer put in as much effort on my own behalf as before, so the new bike will have an even higher output, as it may be needed to operate entirely without me in some cases.
Last edited by Abneycat; 10-19-08 at 02:50 AM.
10-19-08, 03:41 AM
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It makes sense to stay legal for the reasons you outlined. ...But the speed is just so addictive. I know that I can disable the speed controller on my Bionx, and I keep going back and forth on this. It's good to have the control that makes me legal, but it sure would be nice to have a few more mph on a few of the roads I travel.
10-19-08, 08:23 AM
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I have an insurance policy for my ebike with moped coverage (no license required where I live). For me, the benefits of being on a bicycle with assist is the driving factor, and I'm willing to deal with insurance (and licensing if needed).
But, I will say that courtesy to other user of the roads is still critical. A bunch of hot headed modders blasting past pedestrians or treating the bike lanes like Le Mans can make regulaters sit up and notice. I've talked to bicycle advocates in my city who are already none too happy with us.
But, I will say that courtesy to other user of the roads is still critical. A bunch of hot headed modders blasting past pedestrians or treating the bike lanes like Le Mans can make regulaters sit up and notice. I've talked to bicycle advocates in my city who are already none too happy with us.
10-19-08, 11:27 AM
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I'm not sure if I can get insurance for my ebike. I would be very interested in that if it would allow me to make modifications within the moped classification.
I agree with you on the courtesy and safety, I plan on doing both to the best of my capability.
Yet, I still fear that I'll get some prejudicial responses from bicycle advocates. I think some people will always object to thie idea of an overweight person being able to reach the same speeds as fit people. It's almost like we are crashing their party.
I agree with you on the courtesy and safety, I plan on doing both to the best of my capability.
Yet, I still fear that I'll get some prejudicial responses from bicycle advocates. I think some people will always object to thie idea of an overweight person being able to reach the same speeds as fit people. It's almost like we are crashing their party.
10-26-08, 02:29 AM
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You also need to consider that, for many people, tinkering is its own reward. Its the gearhead mentality. You either find a pile of parts and a well stocked toolbox to be a source of great relaxation, or you just don't get it.
10-26-08, 10:27 AM
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people you need to realise there are no rules(laws) out
in canada we are on a pilot program till fall 09
you need no LISENCE no INSURENCE or no REGISTRATION
so the law has no hold over you...know who you are
have you ever added a k&n filter to your car or speed parts?
its all in how you use it...just because my bike will go 50
doesn't mean i drive it to the bar all the time
in canada we are on a pilot program till fall 09
you need no LISENCE no INSURENCE or no REGISTRATION
so the law has no hold over you...know who you are
have you ever added a k&n filter to your car or speed parts?
its all in how you use it...just because my bike will go 50
doesn't mean i drive it to the bar all the time
10-26-08, 04:34 PM
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people you need to realise there are no rules(laws) out
in canada we are on a pilot program till fall 09
you need no LISENCE no INSURENCE or no REGISTRATION
so the law has no hold over you...know who you are
have you ever added a k&n filter to your car or speed parts?
its all in how you use it...just because my bike will go 50
doesn't mean i drive it to the bar all the time
in canada we are on a pilot program till fall 09
you need no LISENCE no INSURENCE or no REGISTRATION
so the law has no hold over you...know who you are
have you ever added a k&n filter to your car or speed parts?
its all in how you use it...just because my bike will go 50
doesn't mean i drive it to the bar all the time
Although I understand what you are saying, if you modify your bike to a point where it is too powerful, or too fast....you will not be protected by the new federal and provincial classifications that protect you now.
a bike that can go 50 is effectively a motorvehicle that is not protected by the new laws. You wouldn't drive a motorcycle with no insurance, why would you be lulled into the idea that it is safe to do so with your ebike?
10-26-08, 07:03 PM
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people you need to realise there are no rules(laws) out
in canada we are on a pilot program till fall 09
you need no LISENCE no INSURENCE or no REGISTRATION
so the law has no hold over you...know who you are
have you ever added a k&n filter to your car or speed parts?
its all in how you use it...just because my bike will go 50
doesn't mean i drive it to the bar all the time
in canada we are on a pilot program till fall 09
you need no LISENCE no INSURENCE or no REGISTRATION
so the law has no hold over you...know who you are
have you ever added a k&n filter to your car or speed parts?
its all in how you use it...just because my bike will go 50
doesn't mean i drive it to the bar all the time
Due to the fact that the only way to be punished/fined as an individual at the moment is to be caught in the act by an officer who will take the time to pull you from traffic - something which isn't likely to happen, people get the feeling they can easily get away with extreme violations of the guidelines.
The notion that the law has no hold over you though, is poor thinking. It simply currently makes you harder to catch as an individual at the moment, but the very phrase "pilot program" implies that the ramifications of your actions now will have even greater effect on not only you, but everyone seeking e-bikes later on. They've offered light electric bikes and vehicles a chance on the road, but will be none too happy to see mini motorbikes instead.
Even in areas where the rules are "set and finalized", they could be subject to revision if the community gets agitated enough to lobby for it. How often do you hear motorists complaining about the cyclists presence, for instance? Not even many cyclists are happy about electric bikes, leaving them in a clear minority situation.
Whatever you're doing out there on the road, make sure it doesn't ruin it for the rest of the e-bike community.
Last edited by Abneycat; 10-26-08 at 07:13 PM.
10-27-08, 10:12 AM
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i won't take it personaly
there are NO laws on the books...if i'm wrong
than show me the law...
if you feel they have a right to charge you
with a modified ebike with no laws in the ccc
show me 1 act or statute that has the force of
law and i'll eat my words...the pilot program
expires in 09 oct or nov...then they can ask
parliment for laws...not before
there are NO laws on the books...if i'm wrong
than show me the law...
if you feel they have a right to charge you
with a modified ebike with no laws in the ccc
show me 1 act or statute that has the force of
law and i'll eat my words...the pilot program
expires in 09 oct or nov...then they can ask
parliment for laws...not before
10-27-08, 11:25 AM
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electri...le_laws#Canada
Laws and regulations are listed there. Please note that there are both regulations imposed by the federal government, as well as regional regulations which can vary by province (or even by municipality, such as how Calgary follows Alberta guidelines with some minor revisions)
Typically, the guidelines simply state speed and wattage limitations. Some regional laws have additional muck over the top of that.
Failure to comply with vehicular guidelines is an offense in itself (with *any* vehicle), as will you suffer from additional potential problems if your vehicle is then legally determined to fall under another category - once your e-bike steps out of bounds of its particular designation, it can be placed under the next category, where you are then subject to facing fines/charges for riding an unlicensed, un-plated moped or motorcycle.
Thats not something electric bicycles magically circumnavigate. Vehicles are required to conform to certain specifications and standards within a category while on the road - and electric bicycles have a category defined - failure to remain within those bounds puts you in another category, and makes you subject to the laws of that category, including the potential to be charged accordingly.
In short, they wouldn't charge you with "owning and operating a modified, out of spec electric bicycle", they would (and could easily) charge you with operating a different class of motor vehicle (likely a moped, unless you have considerably pushed your vehicle up to motorcycle level, definitions of both are also available online) - so you are then looking at the possibility of getting:
operating without a helmet (a bicycle helmet will not save you this one either, cops know they're not DOT/Snell)
operating without signal lights
operating without a license (unless you had one)
operating without registration, plates, possibly insurance
unsafe operation charges (if you were found on a path, etc)
other possible misdemeanors
You can read on vehicle classification, particular licensing needs and operating requirements in a learners driving manual which can be found at a local registry.
As for the legal limitations of electric bicycles within their own category, you are somewhat on the mark - there are no additional legal requirements in most jurisdictions, save that the laws of the road are followed as necessary for a cyclist.
Laws and regulations are listed there. Please note that there are both regulations imposed by the federal government, as well as regional regulations which can vary by province (or even by municipality, such as how Calgary follows Alberta guidelines with some minor revisions)
Typically, the guidelines simply state speed and wattage limitations. Some regional laws have additional muck over the top of that.
Failure to comply with vehicular guidelines is an offense in itself (with *any* vehicle), as will you suffer from additional potential problems if your vehicle is then legally determined to fall under another category - once your e-bike steps out of bounds of its particular designation, it can be placed under the next category, where you are then subject to facing fines/charges for riding an unlicensed, un-plated moped or motorcycle.
Thats not something electric bicycles magically circumnavigate. Vehicles are required to conform to certain specifications and standards within a category while on the road - and electric bicycles have a category defined - failure to remain within those bounds puts you in another category, and makes you subject to the laws of that category, including the potential to be charged accordingly.
In short, they wouldn't charge you with "owning and operating a modified, out of spec electric bicycle", they would (and could easily) charge you with operating a different class of motor vehicle (likely a moped, unless you have considerably pushed your vehicle up to motorcycle level, definitions of both are also available online) - so you are then looking at the possibility of getting:
operating without a helmet (a bicycle helmet will not save you this one either, cops know they're not DOT/Snell)
operating without signal lights
operating without a license (unless you had one)
operating without registration, plates, possibly insurance
unsafe operation charges (if you were found on a path, etc)
other possible misdemeanors
You can read on vehicle classification, particular licensing needs and operating requirements in a learners driving manual which can be found at a local registry.
As for the legal limitations of electric bicycles within their own category, you are somewhat on the mark - there are no additional legal requirements in most jurisdictions, save that the laws of the road are followed as necessary for a cyclist.
Last edited by Abneycat; 10-27-08 at 11:29 AM.
10-27-08, 04:05 PM
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Any modifications to your e-bike that changes any of this makes your e-bike not an e-bike and the police can take appropriate action...and the fines are heavy. An e-bike that can attain 33 km per hour and greater is no longer classified as an e-bike. The fine for riding with no insurance is a heavy one, not to mention no licence.
11. How did the Ministry of Transportation come up
with the definition of "a power-assisted bicycle"?
Ontario adopted the definition contained in s. 2(1) of the
Motor Vehicle Safety Regulations (Canada) and that is:
"power-assisted bicycle", means a vehicle that:
a. has steering handlebars and is equipped with pedals,
b. is designed to travel on not more than three wheels in
contact with the ground,
c. is capable of being propelled by muscular power,
d. has one or more electric motors that have, singly or in
combination, the following characteristics:
i. it has a total continuous power output rating,
measured at the shaft of each motor, of 500 W
or less,
ii. if it is engaged by the use of muscular power,
power assistance immediately ceases when the
muscular power ceases,
iii. if it is engaged by the use of an accelerator
controller, power assistance immediately
ceases when the brakes are applied, and
iv. it is incapable of providing further assistance
when the bicycle attains a speed of 32 km/h on
level ground,
e. bears a label that is permanently affixed by the
manufacturer and appears in a conspicuous location
stating, in both official languages, that the vehicle is a
power-assisted bicycle as defined in this subsection,
and
f. has one of the following safety features,
i. an enabling mechanism to turn the electric
motor on and off that is separate from the
accelerator controller and fitted in such a
manner that it is operable by the driver, or
ii. a mechanism that prevents the motor from
being engaged before the bicycle attains 3
km/hr
with the definition of "a power-assisted bicycle"?
Ontario adopted the definition contained in s. 2(1) of the
Motor Vehicle Safety Regulations (Canada) and that is:
"power-assisted bicycle", means a vehicle that:
a. has steering handlebars and is equipped with pedals,
b. is designed to travel on not more than three wheels in
contact with the ground,
c. is capable of being propelled by muscular power,
d. has one or more electric motors that have, singly or in
combination, the following characteristics:
i. it has a total continuous power output rating,
measured at the shaft of each motor, of 500 W
or less,
ii. if it is engaged by the use of muscular power,
power assistance immediately ceases when the
muscular power ceases,
iii. if it is engaged by the use of an accelerator
controller, power assistance immediately
ceases when the brakes are applied, and
iv. it is incapable of providing further assistance
when the bicycle attains a speed of 32 km/h on
level ground,
e. bears a label that is permanently affixed by the
manufacturer and appears in a conspicuous location
stating, in both official languages, that the vehicle is a
power-assisted bicycle as defined in this subsection,
and
f. has one of the following safety features,
i. an enabling mechanism to turn the electric
motor on and off that is separate from the
accelerator controller and fitted in such a
manner that it is operable by the driver, or
ii. a mechanism that prevents the motor from
being engaged before the bicycle attains 3
10-27-08, 08:06 PM
#13
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i won't take it personaly
there are NO laws on the books...if i'm wrong
than show me the law...
if you feel they have a right to charge you
with a modified ebike with no laws in the ccc
show me 1 act or statute that has the force of
law and i'll eat my words...the pilot program
expires in 09 oct or nov...then they can ask
parliment for laws...not before
there are NO laws on the books...if i'm wrong
than show me the law...
if you feel they have a right to charge you
with a modified ebike with no laws in the ccc
show me 1 act or statute that has the force of
law and i'll eat my words...the pilot program
expires in 09 oct or nov...then they can ask
parliment for laws...not before
i.e. a moped or motorcycle, then all the other rules apply, license, registration, insurance etc.
You can get busted for violating those rules.
10-28-08, 07:08 PM
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so were are these laws...show me the ccc section...
i can't believe you sheaple will gladly stand in line
and pay for insurence? on a bike
show me what code(s) you are talking about
even your local ones
i can't believe you sheaple will gladly stand in line
and pay for insurence? on a bike
show me what code(s) you are talking about
even your local ones
10-28-08, 09:13 PM
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wasp, I think I know what you are trying to get at. But, think about "why" the special classifications were created a few years ago.
They were created, because without the special classifications, ebikes were illegal. The were illegal because they were classified as a motorvehicle. And, the laws tend to frown on motorvehicles being operated on public street when they are uninsurable.
If you violate the definition of an ebike, you risk putting your bike into a different classification.
They were created, because without the special classifications, ebikes were illegal. The were illegal because they were classified as a motorvehicle. And, the laws tend to frown on motorvehicles being operated on public street when they are uninsurable.
If you violate the definition of an ebike, you risk putting your bike into a different classification.
10-29-08, 06:22 AM
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It isn't an e-bike.
Therefore, it must be something else. Then whichever rules apply, are the ones you risk breaking.
10-29-08, 07:21 AM
#17
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Originally Posted by wasp
show me what code(s) you are talking about
even your local ones
even your local ones
According to your profile, you're from ontario. Here are the rules in ontario:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electri...e_laws#Ontario
Originally Posted by wikipedia
On October 4 2006 the Minister of Transportation for Ontario Donna Cansfield announced the Pilot Project allowing PABs which meet the federal standards definition for operation on road. PAB riders must follow the rules and regulations of a regular bicycles, wear an approved bicycle helmet and be at least 16 years or older. There are still a number of legal considerations for operating any bicycle in Ontario.
....
....
Originally Posted by wikipedia
-assisted-bicycles are limited to an electric motors of 500 W output and a maximum speeds of 32 km/h. Other safety requirements must also be met.
10-29-08, 11:15 AM
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again i see no laws that i can deconstruct
i am still waiting...
just because alot of people say the sky is falling...is it?
were are these laws...they don't exist...yet
why modify a legal ebike (i should have answered this first)
more acceleration for better starts...like crossing a busy street
more top speed ...passing of course(lol) being chased by dogs
just because there is more in reserve doesn't mean it's used
i believe if i'm running at 45kmh in a school zone than i would
be charged if on the other hand i'm on a side road with above
30kmh and i run 50 who am i hurting...who is injured or at risk?
how many are aware of justin from ebikes.ca going across canada
this summer on his ebike? totally illegal in your eyes...x5 and all
i will challenge any court with these so called laws or acts or statutes
if i can pedal a bike at speeds of 45kmh my 7 year old hits 28 on his
pedal bike? its not the equipment its the operater controlling it?
no laws yet...
i am still waiting...
just because alot of people say the sky is falling...is it?
were are these laws...they don't exist...yet
why modify a legal ebike (i should have answered this first)
more acceleration for better starts...like crossing a busy street
more top speed ...passing of course(lol) being chased by dogs
just because there is more in reserve doesn't mean it's used
i believe if i'm running at 45kmh in a school zone than i would
be charged if on the other hand i'm on a side road with above
30kmh and i run 50 who am i hurting...who is injured or at risk?
how many are aware of justin from ebikes.ca going across canada
this summer on his ebike? totally illegal in your eyes...x5 and all
i will challenge any court with these so called laws or acts or statutes
if i can pedal a bike at speeds of 45kmh my 7 year old hits 28 on his
pedal bike? its not the equipment its the operater controlling it?
no laws yet...
10-29-08, 12:21 PM
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I met with Justin on his way through Calgary for a bit, we went out for dinner together with Ken from power in motion.. Justin is a nice guy. And as I explained earlier, ones choice to modify a system is their own doing, but be aware of the consequences.
Therein lies the problem, that 4 people just told you about how vehicle classification works, but you're still oblivious to the fact that there *are* possible consequences. "nothing in place" is a complete fallacy, when you consider that vehicles have had classification types.
https://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dan...e-bike-faq.htm
Read point 12. Summarily, it says what we've been saying.
Therein lies the problem, that 4 people just told you about how vehicle classification works, but you're still oblivious to the fact that there *are* possible consequences. "nothing in place" is a complete fallacy, when you consider that vehicles have had classification types.
https://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dan...e-bike-faq.htm
Read point 12. Summarily, it says what we've been saying.
10-29-08, 12:52 PM
#20
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What law do you want me to quote?
the law that states that it is illegal to operate an unlicensed, uninsured motorvehicle on public road?
I suppose I could find this law, but is it really necessary for me to do so?
I honestly don't think that you are denying that such a law exists, so could we just move on with this discussion?
the law that states that it is illegal to operate an unlicensed, uninsured motorvehicle on public road?
I suppose I could find this law, but is it really necessary for me to do so?
I honestly don't think that you are denying that such a law exists, so could we just move on with this discussion?
10-29-08, 05:46 PM
#22
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again show me the ebike law...
show me a motorvehical is a ebike
you all want to quote it...than what section
is this a act or statute...is it a law
ccc section?
our bikes are NOT registered (unlike a moped or motorbike)
you sheaple want to argue the fact produce the law
and show us all how it "includes" us
still waiting...
show me a motorvehical is a ebike
you all want to quote it...than what section
is this a act or statute...is it a law
ccc section?
our bikes are NOT registered (unlike a moped or motorbike)
you sheaple want to argue the fact produce the law
and show us all how it "includes" us
still waiting...
10-29-08, 07:43 PM
#23
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Location: Base of the Rocky Mountains, Canada. Wonderous things!
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Seriously? I posted the link from the MTO a few posts up. Pay attention rather than calling people names,
because you're starting to look like a troll.
Have it again, one last time:
https://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dan...e-bike-faq.htm
Please read it over, specifically point 12.
because you're starting to look like a troll.
Have it again, one last time:
https://www.mto.gov.on.ca/english/dan...e-bike-faq.htm
Please read it over, specifically point 12.
