36v v 48v system..... 36 is my choice
02-25-09, 11:52 AM
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52 mph... with only 48 volts!
I'll get back to the banter later...
Just the first speed run:
52 mph on the flat with only 48 volts.
Previous BEST for 48 volts was 48 mph.
Previous BEST for 72 volts was 52 mph.
...I'll see if I can break my old speed record later today. (at 52 mph the wind resistance makes it hard to get going much faster)
The motor did not even get close to overheating... it was very, very cool.
The Triple is an enormous success. (which is good)
The Theory of parallel winds allowing more current (more top end power without heat) works:
"Somehow"
(Litz wire?, Inductance?, Parallelism?)
.
02-25-09, 01:00 PM
#52
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58 mph... at 72 volts!
Damn that was fast.
(flat land, no wind, held for about three seconds)
Output is estimated as 2800 watts. (3.7 hp)
The range dropped to near nothing.
The Triple was able to deliver that much power without overheating, so as far as raw power is concerned it certainly beat my old Double wind. The old Double could manage about 52 mph on the flat and it produced a lot of heat in doing it.
In principle the concept of switching from Double to Triple works for peak power, but the range is naturally going to go way down. Overall efficiency remains good, but the simple fact of using all your battery so quickly means that there is less to spread around. One cannot ride the Triple and get the same range as you could with the Double because the Triple needs to be fed a lot of amps to make it function. The best argument for the Singles and Doubles is that the range is better. (they run better when batteries are more limited)
What do you want? Power or Range?
--------------------------------
Note: I managed 58 mph while only in fourth gear out of six while in 72 volt mode. The last two gears were essentially worthless. In 48 volt mode the sixth gear matches up perfectly with 52 mph, so from a practicality standpoint it makes more sense to ride the bike at 48 volts.
.
Damn that was fast.
(flat land, no wind, held for about three seconds)
Output is estimated as 2800 watts. (3.7 hp)
The range dropped to near nothing.
The Triple was able to deliver that much power without overheating, so as far as raw power is concerned it certainly beat my old Double wind. The old Double could manage about 52 mph on the flat and it produced a lot of heat in doing it.
In principle the concept of switching from Double to Triple works for peak power, but the range is naturally going to go way down. Overall efficiency remains good, but the simple fact of using all your battery so quickly means that there is less to spread around. One cannot ride the Triple and get the same range as you could with the Double because the Triple needs to be fed a lot of amps to make it function. The best argument for the Singles and Doubles is that the range is better. (they run better when batteries are more limited)
What do you want? Power or Range?
--------------------------------
Note: I managed 58 mph while only in fourth gear out of six while in 72 volt mode. The last two gears were essentially worthless. In 48 volt mode the sixth gear matches up perfectly with 52 mph, so from a practicality standpoint it makes more sense to ride the bike at 48 volts.
.
Last edited by safe; 02-25-09 at 01:13 PM.
02-25-09, 01:21 PM
#53
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Very cool, and I know this is slightly OT but I have a question.
How do you calculate output?
I know how many watts input I plan to put into a motor, but I don't know what the output will be and I'm told that those silly laws are based on output, not input.
If I should have started another thread I apologize, I generally frequent forums that are quite relaxed in that regard but I know not all are.
How do you calculate output?
I know how many watts input I plan to put into a motor, but I don't know what the output will be and I'm told that those silly laws are based on output, not input.
If I should have started another thread I apologize, I generally frequent forums that are quite relaxed in that regard but I know not all are.
02-25-09, 03:24 PM
#54
ǝıd ǝʌol ʎllɐǝɹ I
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Well, there<s a simulator at ebikes.ca, if you know what unloaded top speed to expect at a given voltage for your motor, then matching it with something similar on the simulator should give you a reasonable idea what power out to expect. Power in isn<t indicated on it, but it stays at max amps until the lump in the curve where it gradually drops to nothing.
https://www.ebikes.ca/simulator/
You can compare that for power use at given speeds/slopes on kreuzotter simulator to get an idea what it would yeild in real life.
https://web.archive.org/web/200504080...ish/espeed.htm
https://www.ebikes.ca/simulator/
You can compare that for power use at given speeds/slopes on kreuzotter simulator to get an idea what it would yeild in real life.
https://web.archive.org/web/200504080...ish/espeed.htm
02-25-09, 05:30 PM
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In Missouri they have something called the "Missouri Moped Law" and my bike fits into that when it's running below 3 hp and I keep the speed down. (below 30 mph)
This 58 mph bike is just for testing purposes... I'm working on another that is more of a true "ebike" with a 750 watt power output.
Nearly 4 hp is a bit much for an ebike.
---------------------------
I've writtedn my own spreadsheets for simulations, modified simulation that have been posted online (GNU language) and also I've matched my results in real life with the simulations.
When I made the 52 mph run my simulation projected 51.7 mph.
For the 58 mph run my simulation projected right about 60 mph.
.
This 58 mph bike is just for testing purposes... I'm working on another that is more of a true "ebike" with a 750 watt power output.
Nearly 4 hp is a bit much for an ebike.
---------------------------
I've writtedn my own spreadsheets for simulations, modified simulation that have been posted online (GNU language) and also I've matched my results in real life with the simulations.
When I made the 52 mph run my simulation projected 51.7 mph.
For the 58 mph run my simulation projected right about 60 mph.
.
Last edited by safe; 02-25-09 at 05:34 PM.
02-25-09, 05:36 PM
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Wow, it would be a lot easier with a 44 mph limit. The cars around here travel really fast and I need all the speed I can get to stay ahead of cars and keep from getting passed. The roads here have no bike lanes... so it gets scary when you can't keep up.
.
.
Last edited by safe; 02-25-09 at 05:40 PM.
02-25-09, 07:49 PM
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My problem is that I'm a very heavy guy. I hear the biking term is Clydesdale. So to keep the motor under 1500W and still make it up to that speed is posing a challenge.
Right now I'm considering a 48V 48A Crystalyte 5303 but that just barely goes over the 1500W limit and finding a battery pack that can take that abuse is looking pretty expensive too.
Right now I'm considering a 48V 48A Crystalyte 5303 but that just barely goes over the 1500W limit and finding a battery pack that can take that abuse is looking pretty expensive too.
02-26-09, 07:51 AM
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48V 48A Crystalyte 5303 is a good start.
Going up to 72 volts would be better.
Batteries are the weak spot with so much power. This Triple wind produces amazing power (for what was normally a small motor) and for short speed runs it's great, but now I'm trying to figure out how to make the range longer. (the Triple prefers to run with a lot more current than the Double or Single)
$$$ is the easy way to solve the problem... just buy those expensive batteries.
There is no easy answer.
In the American marketplace the manufacturer is limited to roughly 750 watts for ebikes, so the more creative solutions are going to be focused on that power level. The Crystalyte hub motors are the only motors (that I know of) that are built from the start to produce large amounts of power without overheating. But the negative of the Crystalyte hub motors is their weight... 25 lbs trapped in the insides of your rear wheel. My home built bike with gears locates the motor in the bike (which only weighs 10 lbs) while producing (with the Triple) high power levels.
.
Going up to 72 volts would be better.
Batteries are the weak spot with so much power. This Triple wind produces amazing power (for what was normally a small motor) and for short speed runs it's great, but now I'm trying to figure out how to make the range longer. (the Triple prefers to run with a lot more current than the Double or Single)
$$$ is the easy way to solve the problem... just buy those expensive batteries.
There is no easy answer.
In the American marketplace the manufacturer is limited to roughly 750 watts for ebikes, so the more creative solutions are going to be focused on that power level. The Crystalyte hub motors are the only motors (that I know of) that are built from the start to produce large amounts of power without overheating. But the negative of the Crystalyte hub motors is their weight... 25 lbs trapped in the insides of your rear wheel. My home built bike with gears locates the motor in the bike (which only weighs 10 lbs) while producing (with the Triple) high power levels.
.
Last edited by safe; 02-26-09 at 08:02 AM.
02-26-09, 10:50 AM
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That looks pretty cool. 70Kph is the Limited Speed Vehicle limit, I'm not sure I want to go the ebike route at 32kph (20mph) because finding anything with enough power to make the 10+% grade hills we have here with my body mass is even more of a challenge.
02-26-09, 10:57 AM
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You might look at the Cyclone motors and then get some low gears to use with it. Hub motors are really poor at dealing with non-optimal conditions like hills.
I'm actually starting to look into long range as an area to investigate next. 58 mph is enough top speed... no need to search for more.
At 24 volts my range could go all the way out to 30-40 miles, but the top speed will have dropped to 30 mph.
It's all about "trades"... power, range, hill climbing...
https://www.cyclone-usa.com/store.php?crn=199
I'm actually starting to look into long range as an area to investigate next. 58 mph is enough top speed... no need to search for more.
At 24 volts my range could go all the way out to 30-40 miles, but the top speed will have dropped to 30 mph.
It's all about "trades"... power, range, hill climbing...
https://www.cyclone-usa.com/store.php?crn=199
08-31-16, 06:49 PM
#63
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36v vs. 48v
Hi, Should I get 48V ? We have a hilly area here and I am 45 pounds overweight, one of my reasons to add an ebike to excersizing. Thanks
08-31-16, 11:42 PM
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I just add rear kit 26" 48v 1000w , no brand (china)..had SW900 LCD control....I can set cruise control any speed I want , I love it...now can ride pedal + electric motor.....or just want ride like motorcycle with no pedal...Thanks for technology....Be careful make sure your bike frame compatible with it.....This kit very powerful and fast too....
Problem I don't like If you brake will turn off cruise control and you have to set it back....look like CAR......
Lionbass
Problem I don't like If you brake will turn off cruise control and you have to set it back....look like CAR......
Lionbass
Last edited by lionbass; 08-31-16 at 11:46 PM.
09-01-16, 10:52 AM
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So I've been looking forward to getting an e-bike one of these days and I've been wondering whether to go 36v or 48v... i won't even consider 24v cause of all the hills we have in southern california. I've tested out a 36v system before... and just this past weekend I tried a 48v system that my friend got! w00t!!! 
I was curious and excited to know how much faster this 48v was going to be. Right off the bat I noticed the bike was faster and the top end had to be quite a bit higher because I can feel the wind resistance so much more than 20mph... That is the good part... it feels very zippy and fun and just goes probably like 5mph faster, but I can't say cause there was no speedometer.
This was good in the beginning but after a couple miles I realized that bicycling was not the same anymore, like at all.
The reason I say this is because with the 36v, pressing full throttle, the gearing on the bike was still very useful and I could pedal continually and help ease the load off the battery very effectively.
But with the 48v... the gearing was almost useless, I was just sitting there pressing the throttle all the way like usual. Only when going uphill was I able to pedal and be of some help. Otherwise I felt like I wasn't even getting any exercise cause pedaling was useless. I tried pressing 3/4 throttle consistently so my speed would lower but that's just weird and it's not intuitive and you want to just press it all the way all the time.
So... I think i'm going to go for a 36v system, it'll cost less, the bicycle will still be a bicycle i can pedal and exercise with and at least I'll be within the legal 20mph limit as well probably. Those are my priorities so to speak (price and exercise/health benefits!). If you want to mountain bike off road and up lots of hills, then for sure 48v will be for you, but i'm always on the streets and trying to commute by bike is a lot of fun.
I was curious and excited to know how much faster this 48v was going to be. Right off the bat I noticed the bike was faster and the top end had to be quite a bit higher because I can feel the wind resistance so much more than 20mph... That is the good part... it feels very zippy and fun and just goes probably like 5mph faster, but I can't say cause there was no speedometer.
This was good in the beginning but after a couple miles I realized that bicycling was not the same anymore, like at all.
The reason I say this is because with the 36v, pressing full throttle, the gearing on the bike was still very useful and I could pedal continually and help ease the load off the battery very effectively.
But with the 48v... the gearing was almost useless, I was just sitting there pressing the throttle all the way like usual. Only when going uphill was I able to pedal and be of some help. Otherwise I felt like I wasn't even getting any exercise cause pedaling was useless. I tried pressing 3/4 throttle consistently so my speed would lower but that's just weird and it's not intuitive and you want to just press it all the way all the time.
So... I think i'm going to go for a 36v system, it'll cost less, the bicycle will still be a bicycle i can pedal and exercise with and at least I'll be within the legal 20mph limit as well probably. Those are my priorities so to speak (price and exercise/health benefits!). If you want to mountain bike off road and up lots of hills, then for sure 48v will be for you, but i'm always on the streets and trying to commute by bike is a lot of fun.
This was posted in 2009. Not sure what type of controllers were offered back then, but today I "think" you can limit the watt/volt/amp output to your desired levels. Personal control over your system is a huge advantage in my book. Many of the purpose built E-bikes don't give that advantage.
This was an interesting read. Very educational. Thx!
09-07-16, 11:34 AM
#66
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Blast from the past, eh?
There is so much that could be said here.
But yes, on the same motor, 48v is 33% faster. 48/36=1.333. Volts is speed. Generally it will have 33 % more power too, as Watts is Volts x amps.
Personally I like a light 36v system, because it has similar power output to my legs at a modest 10 amps. More Voltage or current will quickly overpower anyone’s legs. But, if you want to sit back and let the motor do the work for ya, 48V has 33% more power and speed than a 36v system (ceteris paribus).
(P.S. Yep, a throttle will limit the voltage, and you can sometimes purchase a programmable controller (or cycle analyst V2 Cycle Analyst Info Page) to limit the current).
There is so much that could be said here.
But yes, on the same motor, 48v is 33% faster. 48/36=1.333. Volts is speed. Generally it will have 33 % more power too, as Watts is Volts x amps.
Personally I like a light 36v system, because it has similar power output to my legs at a modest 10 amps. More Voltage or current will quickly overpower anyone’s legs. But, if you want to sit back and let the motor do the work for ya, 48V has 33% more power and speed than a 36v system (ceteris paribus).
(P.S. Yep, a throttle will limit the voltage, and you can sometimes purchase a programmable controller (or cycle analyst V2 Cycle Analyst Info Page) to limit the current).
09-07-16, 05:06 PM
#67
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You have to ask yourself - do - I have to carry 48V ???
And have a look at ALL drive not just motor.
Of course bare motor turns faster on higher voltage.
And what does controller do with this 48V or 36V????
Square PWM controller ,sinus controller, Field Oriented FOC controller?
My EPLUS reaches 30mph on its own, flat, zero wind , tires 40PSI , me 66kg,
Why would I need to carry heavy 48V??
But it is FOC sophisticated edrive which allows for this.
And have a look at ALL drive not just motor.
Of course bare motor turns faster on higher voltage.
And what does controller do with this 48V or 36V????
Square PWM controller ,sinus controller, Field Oriented FOC controller?
My EPLUS reaches 30mph on its own, flat, zero wind , tires 40PSI , me 66kg,
Why would I need to carry heavy 48V??
But it is FOC sophisticated edrive which allows for this.
09-07-16, 07:28 PM
#68
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Just because you have it , it doesn't mean you's got's to use it... My 48v system works so well I don't even know/notice it's on, on level 1... So there is more to it than power, it's how you control it, and how you want to use it. On level 4 I barely put in any pedaling effort and viola, I am going 32 Km/Hr, on level 1 I am sweating and putting everything into it and... 26 Km/Hr... 
09-08-16, 06:39 AM
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Great information @safe
I have no idea how electicity works and your explanation of motors, while interesting, explains a lot.
You seem to be saying that electric motor design can have simple difference that create huge differences in performance and battery drain.
I have no idea how electicity works and your explanation of motors, while interesting, explains a lot.
You seem to be saying that electric motor design can have simple difference that create huge differences in performance and battery drain.
09-08-16, 09:08 AM
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Great information @safe
I have no idea how electicity works and your explanation of motors, while interesting, explains a lot.
You seem to be saying that electric motor design can have simple difference that create huge differences in performance and battery drain.
I have no idea how electicity works and your explanation of motors, while interesting, explains a lot.
You seem to be saying that electric motor design can have simple difference that create huge differences in performance and battery drain.
All geared hub motors are basically the same (or at a higher level, Direct drive and mid drive motors operate on the same principle too).
- Power = Watt = Volts x Amps
- Volts = speed
- Amps = torque (the feeling of power/acceleration).
There is not a huge difference in designs of a basic hub motor. In general:
- Bigger motors can handle more power without overheating.
- Motor speed (rpm) needs to be matched to the voltage
Voltage relationship to speed: A motor that is nominally 200rpm at 36volts is going to be about 33% slower on 24 volts (24/36) or 33% faster at 48 volts (48/36). Some people get more speed by putting in a higher voltage battery, although this can lead to overheating problems if you run high power at low speed.
Another way to look at this: speed can be controlled by voltage or the motor design (the number of windings in the motor). For example:
Given two otherwise identical motors that run at 200rpm and 260rpm respectively at 36volts,
Over volting the 200rpm motor will run it at 266rpm at 48volts, matching the speed of the 260rpm motor @ 36volts. Of course, the 48volt motor will have 33% more power (and 33% larger/heavier battery), but the speed will be the same.
09-08-16, 09:57 AM
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Thanks Chas58
That explains what the controller on these machines is doing. From my limited experience I really like the Mid drive motor bikes I have ridden---mainly Bosch--- and it kinda makes sense that since the human has a very narrow rpm band the mid motor can easily be designed to boost in that narrow rpm band too.
That explains what the controller on these machines is doing. From my limited experience I really like the Mid drive motor bikes I have ridden---mainly Bosch--- and it kinda makes sense that since the human has a very narrow rpm band the mid motor can easily be designed to boost in that narrow rpm band too.
09-08-16, 12:33 PM
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Well, I have a pretty broad RPM band (0-150rpm).
Electric motors like to spin fast. Full power and slow speed on the motor causes overheating. Full power, and high speed, makes the electric motor happy.
Mid drives allow the bike to go slow and the motor to go fast, or both the bike and the motor to go fast (by taking advantage of the bike's gearing).
I use a hub motor, because I can do everything I need to in one gear. I don't need to shift, and I like that. However, my bike won't go up a long steep hill or go off road. I would need a mid drive to do that.
Electric motors like to spin fast. Full power and slow speed on the motor causes overheating. Full power, and high speed, makes the electric motor happy.
Mid drives allow the bike to go slow and the motor to go fast, or both the bike and the motor to go fast (by taking advantage of the bike's gearing).
I use a hub motor, because I can do everything I need to in one gear. I don't need to shift, and I like that. However, my bike won't go up a long steep hill or go off road. I would need a mid drive to do that.
09-08-16, 08:08 PM
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Please help....
My add kit 26" 48v 1000w.....use 4 SLA 12v 8AH.....Is bad or good for motor ?.....if I set cruise 5.5 m/h and add pedal to ride for exercise....( love slow speed for work out )....
My add kit 26" 48v 1000w.....use 4 SLA 12v 8AH.....Is bad or good for motor ?.....if I set cruise 5.5 m/h and add pedal to ride for exercise....( love slow speed for work out )....
09-09-16, 10:44 AM
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Well, SLA is a pretty heavy battery. Are those in series or parallel? 8Ah isn't going to get you much current, but you are not riding fast. That isn't going to do anything to particularly hurt the motor.
09-09-16, 11:20 AM
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Thanks Chas58 for reply , the battery is 48v = 4SLA 12v - 8A in series-20 pounds..... so I am very happy with my e-bike..You have a nice weeken...
Last edited by lionbass; 09-09-16 at 11:25 AM.
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