I ride the bike paths here in the DC area, specifically the Crescent and Mount Vernon Trails, as I commute to work, and this whole electric-thing-on-the-bike-path concerns me. These trails are marked for non-powered transport and I think with good reason. Here are some thoughts:

It seems fairly evident that there are two types of device, the power assisted bike and the electric bike. The first is a normal bike modified to have an electric motor, but first and foremost it looks like and behaves like a regular bicycle; it has power assist. It weighs little more than a regular bike, can be pedaled, has derailleur or hub gears, or not, is the same width and speed of a normal push-bike - give or take! In effect, this is a machine intended for human power; the electric assist is just that - an assist.

The second is an entirely different kettle of fish. The pedals on an electric bike are clearly NOT intended as the main means of power. These machines are much heavier, are wider and faster, and are intended to be FIRST powered by an electric motor and second, if at all, by pedals.

In a live-and-let-live world, which we are rapidly losing, I think it quite reasonable for power-assist bikes, by the above definition, to use bike trails. Within the confines of the rules laid down for bike paths they must be used in human-power mode only, i.e. pedaled. In reality I would quite expect to see folks adding a wee bit of power up a hill to help their pedaling, something the casual observer would not notice. As long as these machines keep within the normal scope of biking expectations, this would be fine.

Scooters or ANY machine that is not primarily intended for human power do not belong on bike paths.

What will happen if this gets pushed is that the legal weenies will get involved and we shall ALL suffer. Some fathead will note that we have a clear distinction here between power-assist and "electricity as the main driving force" and will require licenses to be issued. This will allow our brave authorities to monitor bike paths and if they see something with a bag or protrudance that MIGHT be a motor, then they may stop that person and issue a fine. They will have a ball with this and we will all need to pay license fees, usage fees and the occasional fine. Then some bright spark will invent automatic bike-path camera surveillance devices... And so on.

Sigh. It'll probably happen anyway.

Lawrence

Hi Lawrence, The argument you present against electric bikes on bike paths has some common misconceptions that are routinely pointed out by "regular bicycle" riders

Here are some valid counter points
In most area's bike riders account for only 1% of the population yet the trails that are being developed use all taxpayers money. Why should only "regular bikes" have use of these trails that are funded by all taxpayers money?
My scooter style bike weighs 150lbs + my 200lbs = 350lbs, Should we not allow larger people to ride regular bikes also?
My scooter can not be assisted with pedaling past 20 mph and when I approach a pedestrian on a trail I slow to a crawl when passing them. Many on "regular bikes" will not slow or only slow marginally so they do not lose their momentum. Which is the safer scenario?

Why do you feel that power assisted bikes must use pedal power only when on trails? What is the difference between someone coasting along at 15mph or someone pedaling at 15mph?

Hi Goletric, I hear your points and they are valid enough, but let me try to clarify my concerns:

First, as to the argument about how people behave on electric bikes, I know of no study that proves any individual, on any type of machine, under any circumstance, is any different in behavior to any other. I know I have behaved idiotically both on foot, on a bike and in a car - and to my extreme embarrassment - on roller blades. On the paths and roads I frequent I encounter idiots on foot, bike, blades and anything else they can possibly mount that has wheels. I have read this argument in many places, that some group of folks behave better than some other because of something they believe in - Sorry, I don't buy it. We'll have nincompoops on all forms of transport.

My Moulton weighs about 26 lbs, my Campy Mondia weighs in at about the same, probably a little less. All up around 220 lbs. Many users are a lot less than that. Certainly there are riders and bikes that weigh more, sometimes much more, but they are the exception rather than the rule. Weight is still a big concern in my mind, getting whacked by a 220 pounder is different to being clobbered by 350 lbs, and the odds of that 350 lbs traveling faster than a bike must also be considered. I would also assert that a bike rider is far more maneuverable than a scooter, and more likely to avoid or lessen an impact should one be impending. Again, I am talking averages here.

I do not know what the average bike speed is on these paths. I max out around 20 mph or so for brief stretches, I average probably around 12 to 14. Many folks younger than I certainly average more than that, but - again - on the whole the speeds are lower and the weight of the speeder is lower.

Then one must consider bikes like the Optibike which weighs in around 50 to 70 lbs. This is more like a power assisted bike, yet it can hit 30mph. Rest assured that someone will ride it at 30 mph and clobber someone on a bike path. One web site states that this bike can reach 35 mph with pedal assist.

Still and all - I could be convinced that such a machine could share a bike path. I would hold to my argument that bike paths should be for human powered devices only, but such machines fall, albeit "marginally" in my opinion, into the electric-assist category and I could see them on a bike path.

It is when you get into the larger scooter range that I draw the line. Scooters like the Vectrix VX-1, which is clearly a road machine. More reasonable machines like the little E-Moto or RideGreen Capri weigh around 250 and 187 lbs, and these are classified as a mopeds. Their weight, size and speed make them inappropriate for a bike path.

There are places on the Mount Vernon trail where it narrows considerably, and one place - Memorial Bridge I believe - where it would be difficult for a scooter to traverse without causing folks from the other direction to back up. And to do so under power without clobbering the sides of the trail would require some skill.

I am sorry, but I for one am unconvinced. I like electric machines. I build and fly R/C helicopters and planes - all electric. I simply think there is no place on a bike path for any machine that is not intended to be powered primarily by a human.

Your ask two questions: "Why do you feel that power assisted bikes must use pedal power only when on trails? What is the difference between someone coasting along at 15mph or someone pedaling at 15mph?"

As I noted above, the LAW states that power assisted bikes must only use pedals on bike paths, I do not necessarily agree. I think it not unreasonable that the users of such bikes will use power to give them that assist they have paid for. In all probability this type of bike will perform and behave pretty much like a regular bike.

The answer to your second question depends on the weight, stopping power and maneuverability. And so again I go back to my original assertion - that although I could accept the "power-assist" bikes being used on bike paths - AND with the judicious use of the power they are equipped with - there is no place for the larger machines intended to be powered primarily by an electric motor.

We have all seen pile-ups, folks falling off their bike, and others riding into pedestrians, bushes, trees and other bikers. These paths are shared by kids, young mothers, wee babies in push-chairs. Sharing these paths with bikes is already scary enough, there is no question in my mind that if these heavier electric two-wheelers get to use bike paths, it will not be long before we have some serious accidents.

And then the legal weenies will get going and we'll all be done in.

Which, as I noted, will probably happen anyway.

Sorry - not convinced.

Lawrence

Lawrence

5 years ago I would have agreed with you, until my involvement with them, which is now seasonal, but heavy.

Alternatives were desperately needed for short commutes of 20 km and less. The cycling market which represents only 2% of commuters is a start and these in time will add another 2%.
There are people who would never turn their car in for a bicycle but will for a scooter style e-bike. BC was first to adopt these without a pilot and without any major resistance albeit from certain cyclists, who seem to be the most threatened, when they shouldn't be.
With over 10,000 e-bikes in 6 years there was alot of information collected by the ministry, and by police as well as other unions. In 2 and half short years in Ontario, I am willing to bet there are several thousand on the roads. If there was a hint of a problem, bill 126 would have corrected the wording to exclude these. I have said before in other posts, if the bicycle just came onto the roads in todays market it would be scrutinized by public opinion as well and quite possibly be licenced and insured. Helmets would be mandatory and stricter laws. Commons sense is needed on all vehicles and there will always be jokers on the road.
I love my scooter style e-bike and ride it as much as I can 8 months of the year in place of my Ford Clubwagon which is needed somedays for work. What a fun vehicle to ride and it gets me from point A to B. Bicycles are great too, don't get me wrong, but this is another alternative to a car that attracts another crowd.
More choices for motorists will give a larger voice for more paths, cleaner paths and necessary education towards sharing the road. As a pedestrian I do not feel threatened by them. Trucks, cars and buses, well that is a different story.
They are new to the world and they are necessary stepping stone for what is to come. As battery technology improves so does our range, another increase in demand. As cycling infrastructure goes through its evolutionary changes, perhaps one day we will have our own lane, cars will have theirs, bicycles theirs. Until then, why stop progression for the sake of tradition.
The Horse and Buggy mentality couldn't stop the motorized car, even if it was scaring the horses.

Hi Dewdad,

I do not think you have said a thing I can disagree with. I share the road with cars, trucks, bikes, pedestrians, scooters - you name it. Powered by internal combustion, electric, a combination of the two and occasionally perhaps something even weirder! No problem.

Well - except for the twits who nearly knock me off by passing too close.

I think I shall add one qualification here to my previous two posts that perhaps might be significant - and that is the trails I ride. As far as the roads go, there is no issue as to what uses them. The two trails I use here in the DC area, the Crescent Trail and the Mount Vernon Trail, it is these with which I am principally concerned and to which my remarks pertain. They are narrow, in some places, EXTREMELY narrow. They go up and down and twist and turn to a most delightful degree. They are used by all sorts of folks, on feet and wheels of all sizes.

Realizing - perhaps belatedly - that I do not know the types of trails other folks use, it strikes me that perhaps they are quite suitable for larger, heavier and faster vehicles. I know the two main trials I use are not suitable at all and I cannot believe that electric scooters would last long should they start using them.

And to strengthen your last statement, if we were to get more folks onto electric scooters - or into small electric vehicles based on the form-factor of the smart-car - then we could put more of the same onto the very roads jammed with motor vehicles today. Traffic would flow better, the air would be cleaner, gas prices would plummet, noise pollution would drop and, if the roads become safer we might attract more folks onto pedal-powered machines which would improve general health as well - with a corresponding drop in health-care costs.

The mind boggles!

It would be wonderful here in DC! It's a beautiful city and with less cars it would be simply fantastic!

Cheers - Lawrence

haha! that one was cool!! is that a rechargable one? do i need a gasoline for that to run? i don't think so.. that is electronic bike! no need to fill up with gasoline! haha! that is really cool!!

I am all for scooter style e-bikes to be allowed everywhere a bicycle is allowed including bike paths.
The only exception would be congested pedestrian paths with kids and dogs. Then I will conceed that no bicycles of any kind be allowed on those paths. I have no problem on paths with people myself and slow down accordingly. Everyone in my area knows me and I have never had a problem. Still there are nuts flying by on regular bicycles. So it goes back to, the problem lies within the rider of the bike, regardless whether it has a battery or not. I can safely cruise at 5 km per hour and enjoy my ride on the path, and speed up when no one around...A little common sense goes a long way regardless whether it is pedal driven or battery.

the problem with the scooter style ebikes are that they are designed to look and feel like a gas scooter, which are usually bulky and takes space on the road/path

they are not fast enough like a real gas scooter to go safely on the open roads, yet not fit enough to be call ebikes to share the bike lanes and recognized as bikes to be used on parks paths, etc.

it just gives mixed feelings to normal bikers.

and it's extremely annoying when the big fat casing of the scooter shell blocks the bike lane, when normally it can fit 2 or 3 bikes at the red lights.

Handlebar to handlebar they are the same size as a bicycle, the fairings do not exceed the handle bars so they only seem wider but are not. What about cyclists with saddlebags? That issue was addressed 6 years ago in British Columbia and never again because it was rediculous. Believe me if the Department of Transportation, and the Insurance Companies do not feel a need to step in, it is because they did their homework first. Bill 126 passed including scooter style in the power assisted bicycle mix.
A human being exerts 480 watts of energy to propell their bicycle 30 km per hour. That is why they limit the motor to 500 watts. The 32 km per hour is deemed to be a safe cycling speed after years and years of case studies from other countries and BC. There are over 10,000 e-bikes in BC for the last 6 years, safely riding on the roads and bike lanes....Your concerns were the same as mine, so believe me, I understand your concerns...rest assured 3 years later with lots of reading and statistics proved otherwise.....as far as mixed feelings from cyclists...."methinks they protest too much"

Apparently Yvonne Bambrick was on @CBC tonight talking about E-Bikes...Does anybody know what the jist of the conversation was? If so please post it here. I am interested to see if she is still Anti-E-Bike. She claims she doesn't want them banned, just not to be allowed on bike paths. I fail to see the difference.

From the "it ain't over yet, dept." - Ontario
 

Just posted (June18) by the Ontario government:

http://www.ontariocanada.com/registr...postingId=1942

New Electric Bicycle Proposal

http://www.ontariocanada.com/registr...achmentId=2451

I don't quite see what you might be pointing out or criticizing.

In the United States, most if not all motorized bicycles and scooters must be licensed to persons of legal driving age and are categorized as a motor vehicle, subject to the regulations applicable.

Were you meaning to emphasize a connection between lightweight motor vehicles and accidental fatalities during their operation?

Thank you for posting this. The insight was good to have gained!

i don't see anything that worth worrying about.
unless you bought one of those gas scooter looking ones.

the laws remain the same, and it has not changed since it was introduced, so that is a good thing.

Hey Doug, That just goes to show how silly the Ontario MTO is and what a waste of taxpayers money. What have they been doing for the last 3 years? Then they don't even do their own homework, they listen to the arguments of an elitist group of people that have nothing better to do then come up with false saftey concerns and state that scooter style ebikes are too quite?? What kind of argument is that?

As you know there was only one province with a pilot (Ontario) and one province with a weight restriction (Alberta). As of July 1st Alberta is adopting the Federal Definition of E-Bikes and lifting the weight restriction.

Harmonizing the federal and provincial definitions for these vehicles will eliminate uncertainty in consumer transactions and add clarity to enforcement of the regulation.
Ontario Should be the leaders not the laggers when it comes to alternative and sustainable transportation options.


http://www.transportation.alberta.ca/Content/docType41/production/FAQCVSR.pdf


Effective July 1, 2009:
A moped will have a top speed of 70 km/h and no weight restrictions. A moped includes a vehicle with an electric motor or one that is propelled by an engine that has a displacement of not more than 50 cc.
A power bicycle will have a top speed of 32 km/h, an electric motor with a maximum power of 500 watts, and no weight restriction.

Prior to July 1, 2009:
A moped has a top speed of 50 km/h and weighs between 35 and 55 kg.
A power bicycle has a top speed of 35 km/h, one or more electric motors with a maximum electric power of 750 watts or has an engine displacement of no more than 50 cubic centimetres, and has to weigh less than 35 kg.

(much thoughtful content elided)

Sorry to necropost here, but I've gotta say: Lawrence, posts like this one are what is best about the internet. Gentle, thoughtful, compelling. I don't agree with all your points but I am grateful you took the time to flesh out your thoughts on the matter.

Thanks for contributing to the "light" side of the "light/heat" ratio.

Wouldn't it be rediculous if scooter style riders had to be licenced and insured travelling 30 km per hour, while our kids rode passed us on their pedal bicycles doing 40 km per hour and without a helmet. Why the MTO is even considering this is the result of the TCU trying to be "protective" of limited bike paths downtown Toronto. First, who cares about downtown Toronto except those living in it. There is an over abundance of unused paths and roadway suitable for scooter style across Ontario. To consider a provincial ban as a result of downtown congestion is beyond comprehension, and shows the tunnel vision that the TCU has with this issue. I appreciate the work this union is doing, and at the same time am disgusted with their attitude on e-bikes. Todays e-bike riders were yesterdays cyclists and most of us have paid for the right to use these paths long before some of these kids were even born.
The TCU and others like them may try and slow down the future, but they cannot stop it. If there is a congestion problem these bikes are a partial solution to that problem. One Less Car.

Which controller model?
 

Hello everyone.

I'd like to know, which controller model is the most popular?
Meaning, which one is the one installed in most of the different models electric scooters, bikes and mopeds?
I am inquiring on this because I have a big problem with three electric scooters of mine.
All of them have defective controllers (the controllers of these scooters is installed close to the front wheel and is not water resistant, so water gets in ...).
I bought some controllers and tried to fix one of them, but now it runs too slowly and the ignition key does not work (it does not cut-off the power).
Here's the pic of the bike: http://i84.servimg.com/u/f84/13/44/89/85/ebike-10.jpg
So, in order to avoid such problems in the future (given the fact that these scooters are made in plants that have no standards, and you can not go by a model, year or part number in order to find the right part you need), I'd like to buy a bike or a scooter that will have adequate parts support.
Please, help me with an advice accordingly.

Regards.

(adequate parts support) one word veloteq. i had the same model. the problems your having now are just the beginning, add on wiring lights speedo and sla's. post it on kiijii as is and walk away.

Thank you Karma.

veloteq wanted
 

I'm located on the East End of Long Island, NY and looking for a used Veloteq. Hoping that one of the dissatisfied owners will be happy to part with his/hers. Something that runs please and is not a basket case.Will travel to pick it up. Thanks, Ken:roflmao2:

I don't know why there's so much hate to these scooters. It's the buyers that's going to have to take care of it but why does everyone else hate it? The only objection that I have with theses things are that some are riding it on park paths with children running around. There is a difference being hit by a 30lbs bike compared to a 75lbs one. Else on the road I'm totally ok with them.

Heck there would be one less car for each one of these on the road I wish my city was like Copenhagen! but unfortunately North America is a very lazy continent. And seems like even an escooter is too much work. hahah!

People do get very excited over these issues, look at the US today with health care! And there are those odd folks who get so excited that they actually appear to hate - which is a very strong word - those whose opinion differs from their own, but so it seems to be. From my perspective it seems that the issue revolves around the park trail thing and whether electric scooters should be able to use them. Here's my take - again, for I have waxed eloquent elsewhere:

Most of the discussions I read do not include the appropriate information about the trail in question. There are trails and there are trails! Some are narrow and crowded, some are wide and empty, many are somewhere in between. It seems to me that only local jurisdictions can decide what type of vehicle is appropriate for any given trail. (as indeed they do for the roads)

In the last fifteen or so years the technological advances in electric power are amazing. I fly electric R/C planes and helicopters, I gave up on IC engines because of noise and restrictions on where they may be flown. Modern brushless electric motors with associated high-output lithium polymer or ion batteries with controllers to match are phenomenal devices. And - here's the point - they are going to get better in the years ahead. The electric scooters of today are going to become seriously powerful machines in the years to come. Already surge power, or instant power, of an electric motor can be equal to or surpasses an IC engines. So a modern, well-equipped scooter, can accelerate up an incline with great alacrity, whilst their human powered compatriots are gasping and wheezing beside them.

Which means that legislation allowing scooters on some trails today may well find itself being reversed later, for the obvious reasons.

I ride the Crescent Tril here in Maryland into DC, across the Key Bridge, and down the Mount Vernon Trail into Alexandria. A 14 mile trip one-way. There are places on the Mount Vernon Trail which are extremely narrow. Their are very tight corners in places where even light machines need to take care. 3-wheel recumbents encountering children's carriages of the side-by-side twin kiddy variety require care and anything but speed. But most folks are walking, biking, jogging and there are few problems when one passes the other. Bikes can stop quickly, whip off onto the grass and are narrow enough to negotiate the tunnel under the Memorial Bridge or the very narrow path over the hump-back bridge without too many problems. Electric scooters with their ease of speed up hills, their lack of maneuverability and general size and weight simply do not belong on this trail. Period.

And in fact there are signs stating such. But what is proper for this trail is not necessarily so for the next.

In my opinion that does NOT apply to power-assisted bikes. Those machine which are bikes first, and have had a small electric motor added. Even here there may be cause for question with some contraptions I have seen, but many of the power-assisted bikes should be fine on trails such as these I mention. In fact, I have seen them on the trails and I think most folks do not realize they have a motor. Certainly they blend in with existing traffic.

Bottom line is that the more bikes, electric bikes, electric scooters, electric cars even; the better. Sure we have the issue of the plants generating the power these things use and all the pollution and whatnot they create, but this can be controlled and is contained. On the roads, in the cities, in towns, the cleanliness and silence of the electric vehicle is a major plus.

As far as trails go I think this is not something that can be generally legislated, it depends on the trail and the people who use it. Let the local folks decide what is best, try it out, monitor it and then see how successful the results are. As in most cases, trying to provide some sort of blanket rule is rarely successful.

alacrity, i learnt a new word today, thank you :D
I like the way you put it lawrence, very nice.. VERY nice :thumb:

I think this is a nice commercial electric bike
 

Some of you have been looking at commercial electric bikes. Here is what I think is a nice commercial ready-made electric bike.

http://cgi.ebay.com/FORD-TH-NK-BIKEF...item5639ae296b

Notice, the tires are regular bicycle tires so they can be replaced by off-the shelf tires. What I like about this bike is that it has a place for a battery. Notice the battery can be pulled off the bike and probably locked down on the bike too (not sure about that, though). This bike isn't perfect because it'd be nice if there was a little bigger area for the battery compartment but someone skilled with fiberglass or plastic could make his own battery container and slide some LIPO batteries in there and make a nice bike. Slide some LIPO down in there and then change the hub motor and you got a really fast electric bike. I'd only buy a commercial electric bike for the frame because none of them would be fast enough for me. This one isn't perfect but it's close. You could probably take the battery out, cut a hole in it, take out the SLA's and put LIPO in it.

I think the eGO cycle is perfect for a commercial bike. Look at all the room below where you could store some lithium battery and the hubs could easily be changed out for a faster one. Unfortunately, I think it's hard to find a cheap used one. I'm not a welder so I like to look around and find bikes that are already built for batteries.
http://i21.ebayimg.com/05/i/001/5f/71/889b_1_b.JPG