Oh, that's funny. The part number for the SLA you wrote up is exactly the same as the LiFePO units I was going to get ... My bad....

yeah, I meant these if you are going to go with SLA

http://www.powerstream.com/bb/EB20-12.pdf

The criteria I had for SLA was all about Ah to weight. The older style SLA batteries, while cheap, also weigh a ton. I had considered AGM batteries which are SLA, but seem to have several advantages over conventional SLA batteries.

The obvious one is weight - a single 12V 26Ah AGM battery I looked at was 12 lbs compared to the 20+lb "conventional" SLA batteries of the same Ah rating. Second, AGM batteries seem to charge and draw at a higher rate, and leakage becomes less of an issue if the cells crack.

Once I priced everything out - including the charger, I found that the high end SLA's and LiFePO were so close in price that there isn't much of a saving...

The recent price drop of the LiFePO batteries caused me to rethink and I'm buying a 20Ah LiFePO pack and skipping the SLA stage. It just makes sense because I won't have to "tweak" anything, simply upgrade to the 40Ah cells once I have the BMS built and tested on the 20Ah cells.

Good idea. That's what I would do because Lifepo4 can be got for only $100 more. did you see the price of the 36v20AH at elitepowersolutions.com? $312 for 36v20AH. No BMS but for that price, it doesn't really matter because it's so cheap, it's still a great buy because even without a BMS, it will still last 3 or 4x longer than SLA. You could essentially just use 50 - 60 % of it and not worry about a BMS and still get a hell of a lot more usage out of it than a SLA battery.

Yes, I've been watching those prices daily. They dropped last week prompting me to drop the SLA idea. If they drop further, I may just bite the bullet and buy them 2 weeks earlier than I expected to.

I'm not so worried about a lack of BMS right now, riding will be very light and short distances, and the Infineon and Cycle Analyst can help in terms of making sure I don't pull the batteries too low.

Still, I wouldn't want to go with my overall plan without a BMS, and your suggestion of the Cell Monitor is a good first step. HobbyKing sells 3 types of these beasties and they are all very inexpensive. Considering the replacement cost of a cell, I'd say it's a great investment.

Hello fellow Calgary ebike rider.
I thought I was the only one riding ebike in Calgary .
I am typing this from SE 58Ave/11St where I work.
I have bben commuting on my Tidal Force for like 4 years, before I was using Merida.
I strongly advice to get LiFePo battery.
I am riding on LifeBatt/BMI 36V 10 Ah pack made in Taiwan.
My pack had been day and night comparing to my oldNMH battery original on TF.
Original NMH batt lasted only 3 years.
My LFePo doesn't show any signgs of wearing out despite 1 and a half winters and 2 summers
However you must keep in mind than this chemistry losses capacity in cold but not as much as Lead.
I don't know what your budget but I would get E+ ebike made in USA which is improved version of TForce.
Where is made make all of difference.My TF is approaching 15 000km on the clock and is smooth, totally sillent pleasure to ride. Regen is just wondefully well modulated, treasure when your rims get wet. You must have regen on very heavybicycle , for saving brakes, shorthening braking distance.
Anyway if you want to check out my bike please, call
dial extension please.
Miroslaw

I just ordered my kit, I'm like an expectant father waiting for this stuff to come in, but I'm patient enough to wait 'cuz I won't have my LiFePO's for another 2 weeks. Yes, please let's put that to rest. I AM going LiFePO, now let's move on.

It's funny, I looked at the kits sold by Canadian retailers and I saw price tags of like $1900 for a bike and choked. Now after reviewing everything I am going to buy, I know I'm good but it's pretty close to that figure without the bike and frame.

I'm an IT guy, programmer and old hardware hacker (down to being HAM licensed) and mountain biked to/from work a lot when I lived in Victoria (15KM each day), ran 5K at lunch and worked out a lot. I'm itching to get out there now that I've shifted my thinking, an eBike will relieve the boredom on weekends, wondering if anyone's gonna call me to go fishing.

I'm such a tinkerer that I had to understand almost every facet of an eBike before I'd spend any money, and cheap enough to go demonstrated quality versus ease of purchase. I looked for people who *really* knew what they were talking about, and demonstrated an interest in the subjects they investigated and followed their *advice* (if you can call it that.) I've made enough mistakes and will gladly learn from others'.

I'd love to see your bike...

One point, and I think all you folks stress it enough - learn your battery and how to give it your *love* and it will *love* you in return. I don't know why nobody seems to stock battery meters with battery kits - it's always chargers that seem to be included. Go spend the $40 or so, get a cell monitor and single cell charger. After talking to one courier, it seems that this point is overlooked by the masses.

Anyways, pictures later and...

Oh, one thing... I was writing an email last nite (which Justin was very good to answer) and I had an idea...

I'ma go get the USB cables for both the controller and Cycle Analyst for obvious reasons, but then I went one step further adding a netbook, some USB headset (I think I'm gonna hack the Logitech) and a camera (5 megapixel, fast frame rate USB webcam)..

For all of you that post Youtube videos, you are always aimed at the meters which are usually unreadable. I'd love some scenery shots and stuff to give me the visible effect, and since I plan on biking in some beautiful country, I'd love to capture and share it.

So I'm thinking of a USB wireless 4 port hub wired into all this stuff and the netbook receiver in the trailer.

Justin's feedback related to EMF (I suspect from the hub motor and controller) andsuch. I figured high DB gain antennas and proper gear placement might solve some of that.

Total cost + helmet = about $200, hub is about $160 and netbooks are about $500

Anyone else trying such a thing? I'll keep you posted.

PS. Stage 2 includes a wirelss hub, roaming LAN, VOIP server for others in similar gear.

Good advice, hope you took tel number.
I edit my post.
Did you really gave up on the car , that is impressive in Alberta climat.
I had similar plans to yours, always wanted to travel West of Calgary initially to Cochrane.
I think I could do it easly in NORMAL power mode. Tidal Force has NORMAL and Turbo settings.
Calgary is heaven for stealth opportunity chargin.
recepticles all over the place, usually power not turned off for summer.
look at softdrink machines, schools , churches, etc.
I am almost sure there must be some public institution between Calgary and Cochrane.
Electric bike is like addiction for me I never have enough, always look for pretects to go for a ride.
Again few bike can match refinement of TF and E+ bikes and according to at least one owner E
++ is even more efficent than TF.
as a routine I tipically used only 2.5Ah on 9km trip day after day in summer not even on slicker tires and not
pumped even to 40PSI. for comfort.
Do you know if there is eny problem with posting photos on this forum?
Miroslaw

Photos are only a problem if you're not signed in... They work.

Cochrane is only about 26 mi via Hwy 1A, I hadn't planned on recharging before I got there. Of course, I planned on having a 20Ah pack.

I guess I'll have to see when I do my Ghost Lake trip... I'll be marking these spots and maintaining a database of them as I expand from the city limits. For now, I don't have a clue...

Miroslaw, moved the Calgary specific stuff to this thread as it's better in the regional forum.
http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...errerid=187309

We should probably call it "Calgary and Area Guerilla Charging" but we'll see how it develops. I'm going to keep this thread for the bike build related discussion.

Yes, I stashed your number....

So, I started with this older model Norco Katmandu I got from a local pawn shop. I found out the front forks were aluminum, and now it seems that the whole bike is. It was nice when I had nothing on it...


http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=138860
So the first thing was to add "stealth capability" - actually I just wanted fenders and a good cargo rack on the back for batteries and such.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=138861
Then the kit arrived.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=138862
The controller needed modding for regen, so I pulled it apart and thought I'd get a snap of the pads before I started.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=138863
In typical fashion, I had to finish the job as follows:

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=138865
And here it is from front to back:
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=138866
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=138867
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=138868

So the last few days have been endless "tweaking", just trying to be happy with the job I did. I had some issues with the kit which were dealt with easily by emailing the vendor. This is one of the reasons I prefer a supplier in my country.

Just finished with the battery connectors and I've decided to go with LiFePO, the ones Morph recommended, but the 20Ah set that comes with a charger. They disassemble nicely and I was going to re-form those into 2 * 6 cell packs. The RC chargers and balancers I was looking at (with seperate DC 18V input) will do 4 packs at a time, and there is going to be some minor connector hacking involved.

This leaves the BMS and then an upgrade to 6 cell 40Ah packs * 2 = hooked in series. I'm waiting on this with baited breath really. There's 3 systems I've identified for ThunderSky cells, but I'm waiting for one I know is almost ready.

Outstanding work:

1. Install waterproof on/off switch on battery cable.
2. Clean up the rack install and install the spacer washer (I have yet to order) for my 7 speed freewheel.
3. Connect the USB cable in the CA (no rush there)
4. Mod the controller for programming. (many questions on that...)

That last point is going to be a little tough, but not impossible. I hadda upgrade my soldering kit and get a bit of heat-shrink tubing, but so far it's been a constant state of engineer, build, tweak, sit and wait for the next load of stuff to arrive.

Had some extra cash and bougth the panniers, finished all the handlebar mounting and all I have left is to build the battery and power it up. *Tweak* *Twitch*
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=139062
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=139061

The batteries arrived... Before they did, I upgraded the 1.4 slicks I had to 1.95.. They fill the fenders well, hope I don't have to ride in mud.

Of course, the regular camera is down, but I ripped the packs apart, added a waterproof fuse to one and a SPST pigtail switch on the positive lead near the main connector. Made it handy since I used the fuse for the missing hardware from the original battery. They interlocked easily and I had some velcro straps I recycled. Packs are:

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=143021

The charger was a bit of a hassle, but once I figured it out and learned brown was negative (and of course I had to replace the fuse...)
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=143022

I also padded the bottom of the panniers with some high density packing foam (recycled) and here it is. (Yes, I double checked each connection, solder joint, voltage and so on - carefully when I did this, time well spent.

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=143023

This is the first charge, so I'm watching the batteries like a hawk... All I need now is the spacer I forgot to order and a helmet. *twitch*

The charger worked a lot better after I realized I hadn't tightened the battery connectors down on one bank (noticed on the first test.) After about 2 hours, it finally registered as charged, so I tested the cells. They were all over the place - from 3.55v to 3.43v. Packed it up, went to bed and vowed to deal with it tomorrow.

The only solution would be to adjust the charger to shut off at a higher voltage (not easily doable in a day, no adjustments and I would have to hack it without schematics), or I find a 3.7v single cell charger. Seems Canon and Sony cameras and some cell phones use Lithium-Ion batteries and after 4 hours of searching on the net, I went to the dollar store half a block from work. I found a cell phone charger, 3.7v, 355ma and got some alligator clips from a local Radio Shack.

I re-tested the cells when I got home and now they all were within .01v of 3.43v.... Strange, but I want those cells topped off (the RC balancing charger is on the next purchase, along with all the hardware I need - budget) I figure (after testing everything a few times) it'll take about 105 minutes to top off each cell. I have 12 cells... *sigh*

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=143246

Looking good. I've got 30 cycles on mine and still going strong. These can even handle a 10 amp charge if you want. That's what I use sometimes when it's half depleted. If you can manage it, I think the cells are better off inside the silver plastic case that they came in. The reason being that Thundersky has said that it's a good idea to keep the cells clamped and the casing would provide the clamping together to keep them from bloating. I know one person who is also not using the case and has never used the case for a year so it might be okay but I left mine in the silver case just to be sure. They also sell those clamps somewhere if you want to get them. Mine have never gotten even warm to the touch so you may never have a problem.

EDIT: oh are those velcro straps around the cells? If they are tight enough, that might work also.

Have you seen the Trakker watt meter? I think it's a better value than the cycle analyst. I think it's only about $50 - $60.

http://www.plus2city.com/plus2rchobb...onkj1lhafqh362

http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=143259

Hey, be careful with those cell phone chargers. Someone destroyed his lifepo4 with one of those. The reason being, a lot of times those aren't really chargers but just power supplies and the cut off voltage chip is inside the cell phone so it just supplies current to the cell phone and if you leave it on the battery it'll just keep supplying current until the battery is destroyed. I wouldn't use one of those unless you at least monitor the first time and make sure it shuts off.

I haven't balanced my cells for about 4 or 5 uses so it's okay if you go a few times or several times without balancing them.

There is a 3.2v 2amp lifepo4 charger at all-battery.com. That's what I use to top mine off. Here is the one I use. I bought 3 of these.
http://www.all-battery.com/TenergyLi...rger01300.aspx

I use a 12v black and decker for my main charger. Not sure if you knew that or not. I charge 4 cells at a time. I can get them all charged in 3 hours or less. Not bad.

I was more than paranoid using the cell phone charger, first off, I tested the voltage output and realized that the draw from charging the batteries would affect the output voltage of the charger over time. I found that it would take about 5 minutes to add .01v charge, but as the cell voltage increased, this time period decreased. When the cells hit 3.70v, one minute later it was at 3.73v... It'd be nice to have an audible alarm when the cells hit the "sweet spot" (I'm aiming for 3.8v, but the manual that came with them says 4.2 is "fully charged")

I would not let it sit connected and plugged in without supervision - that would be a recipe for disaster as my initial tests showed the charger putting out about 6.34v without a load. It'd cook the cells for sure... No overnight charging for me with that one.

I am curious tho, the 3.2v charger you use, will that charge the cells up to 3.8v or so? I was not sure about those single cell chargers, hence the cell phone 3.7v route.

I had decided on the Cycle Analyst for several other features than measuring power usage, the Low Voltage Cutoff is nice, but there's just so many other features in that little beastie and it integrates well with the Infineon controller... As part of the package, it was hard to refuse.

For those not buying a package like mine, certainly there are alternatives... The Cycle Analyst is now at version 2.2 and there is a new manual posted on the manufacturer's site.

Yes, we had some extras left over from a server room buildout and it turns out they were useful after all. They are really tight and I used the cushion from the bottom of the silver package, cut it in half and placed it under the straps on the ends to add some cushion. They hold the cells together quite well. I was tempted to add the aluminum to the sides to help dissipate heat and add rigidity, and may still.

I've also added straps across the top of the panniers to provide a temporary solution should the clips break or something.

unless you run the batteries to almost 90 - 100 % drained, I doubt you'll see any heat from these batteries. Mine have never even gotten warm. It's amazing. The 3.2v charger takes the battery up to 3.65v and stops. I don't think it's a good idea to charge them to 4.2v. I've never had mine over about 3.76v . They say that the batteries last longer if you only charge them to 3.65v.

There was a lot of discussion on other threads in the Endless-Sphere forums on that, and I had initially selected 3.85 as my target voltage, but on retrospection, 3.65v seems to be the sweet spot.

With the power curve on the battery, I had figured 2.8v as the low end. The Cycle Analyst has a low voltage cutoff to prevent overdraining of the batteries, but it's not granular to the cell level, so I figured on 2.8*12= 33.6v, and this is where having balanced cells comes in handy. I had wanted to go to 2.7v per cell, but the risk that one would hit 2.6v while another stays at 2.8v to compensate is too high.

Oh, the cell I charged to 3.73v last nite was 3.70 when I wnet to sleep and after the day, it was down to 3.55, I took it to 3.66 and am finally working on the second.

Your single cell chargers are sounding better all the time, but when I can afford to get them, I would be able to buy the other charger I ws looking at:

http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/s..._Multi_Charger_