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Any one with any idea of charging the battery meanwhile biking?

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Any one with any idea of charging the battery meanwhile biking?

Old 12-23-10, 09:32 AM
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GTALuigi
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Any one with any idea of charging the battery meanwhile biking?

it's a given that REGEN is not practical to recharge the battery.

REGEN works great as a break, very fast stop in short distance and stable.

I've been toying with the idea of using a front wheel dynamo to generate current/power to feed into the battery, or if possible feed it directly into the rear motor wheel.

i've seen pictures of a few of those setups, but never heard the full story, and no one ever got into details, nor a how to, or the parts that they used.

another idea i've been considering is to convert the bike into a single speed, and use a sort of pedal powered generator to drive the motor, and have the electric motor do all the work, and have a 2 settings (speed or torque), so the rider will always be pedaling at the same rate regardless of the actual difficulty of the road.

the idea is simple, but getting it down on paper with working math and up conversion is trickier than realistically feasible as it usually ends up being a big mass of components that defeats the purpose, it'll basically end up something similar to the e-rocket which is not what i want.

it should remain fairly light (less than 100 lbs), and still look more or less like a pedal bike, unlike the e-rocket that is more like a motorcycle than a e-bike



currently i'm using a BionX 350w PL ... it performs well, but the speed and distance range leaves one wanting for more. i'm lucky to get 50+ Km on 1 charge, i'd like a system that can at least do 100+ km per charge

speed wise it's fine for the street legal limit of 30km/h with the BionX 500 you can get 50Km/h but the battery gets sucked dry with just 25Km range (pretty useless)

now if i could marry the BionX 500w into a sort of live charger say a combination of crank power + generator hub power, and then up convert it, and feed it back into the system, that should give the rider a very nice and long ride to anywhere one wishes to go without having to worry about a power outlet being 100km away i middle of the great outdoors.

Last edited by GTALuigi; 12-23-10 at 09:42 AM.
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Old 12-23-10, 10:32 AM
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I'll get back to you on that...
I think there might be an easy way..
I have this freewheeled mini motor that if run backwards will give good regen..
How much resistance it creates remains to be seen.
I'll ask a colleague who might now how much resistance is created and let you know.
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Old 12-23-10, 11:35 AM
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I think the laws of physics usually will not allow a recharging system that is built into this type setup, to work efficently and recharge the system you are depleting , by any real large amounts.

In other words...if you have a 48 volt system that drives your bike , that same system is not gonna be able to generate 48 volts or more, for any length of time , to significantly recharge the battery pack you are depleting....even if you pedal assist .

Now...perhaps there is a way if you can use TWO systems on the bike, to recharge the battery pack..

example..

Using a 3 wheeled trike bicycle

One system is strictly to drive the bike and that is used on the single front wheel ..lets say that is a 48 volt rear brushless hub..and a 48 volt -800 watt battery pack...


now , on the TWO rear wheels , install TWO seperate - 36 volt brushless hub motors wired in SERIES...so you have a possibility of 72 volts peak being generated..which is more then enough volts to recharge the 48 volt battery pack.


since all 3 systems on the trike are brushless hub motors , the total resistance should be minimal, but you may have a setup capable of significant recharging of the battery .
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Old 12-23-10, 11:49 AM
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to do this on a 2 wheeled bike...you would use the rear hub as your drive system...and put a hub system on front wheel...and then some type of hub system on the middle crank where the pedals are attached...and wire the two recharge systems in series.

OR...

if you are using a 24-36 volt drive system..use a singular 48 volt recharge hub system...you will always need to have the recharge system have 20% or more volts then the main drive system .

in other words..a 48 volt recharge system is not gonna do much to recharge a 48 volt drive system...

Last edited by sunnyday; 12-23-10 at 12:00 PM.
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Old 12-23-10, 12:00 PM
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I'm confused (a somewhat normal situation) I thought the bionx system recharged the battery when in exercise mode. Did I misread the web site or are they blowing sunshine?
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Old 12-23-10, 12:19 PM
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Theyre thinking just a dynamo of some type..
I'm finding out soon as to whether a freewheeled motor running backwards will not produce too much resistance while moving to offset the gains from running it that way.

Any (dc) motor running backwards ("neg current") on it's own energy WILL PRODUCE a current, just like applying power creates the energy to move it in the first place...
That's how regen "works"... (you lose some of either the current or voltage due to heat)
Now Of course, the energy regained in that way is not the exact same amount as used to power it originally. (if it did, then you would have free energy)

Now mind you, I'm not an electrical engineer, but Obviously, regen usually works by using the same motor that you used to ride as the motor to create the regen...

Also, since I'm using two motor and two batteries and two controllers that have regen built in, I get sooo much braking power, that I only have to use my brakes for the last 5' of the stop.
This also has the added benefit of saving my torque arms, because the stopping power is being distributed between the two axles and not just one.
As a matter of fact, I don't even have my rear brake attached, because I don't need it.

Last edited by Sangesf; 12-23-10 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 12-23-10, 02:11 PM
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Do you really think we ebikers are smarter then all the auto manufactures? If there was a simple way to regenerate the lost current from the battery they would be doing it. With the exception of regenerating braking power generation cost more power then you can generate. So yes you can invent a way to charge the pack while riding the the added power needed to offset the added drag consumes more current then you could ever hope to generate. Lets face if this weren't the case then we would only need to charge our batteries once and just ride in order to maintain a full pack. I don't see this happen in my life time.....but then I'm 63.

Bob
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Old 12-23-10, 02:58 PM
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You'll never generate more power than used, but even 50% rather than the 10% from current regen technics would be cool!
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Old 12-23-10, 03:03 PM
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Well the final word from my (electrical engineer) friend was that there is no way to get any decent regen with a motor running backwards, because of the energy required (coefficient of friction) to get back the energy is not efficient enough to offset the power used.
Or something to that effect.
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Old 12-23-10, 03:11 PM
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Well there are technics to generate power while riding... BUT it requires one to pedal... Something, I'm to lazy to do... Lol
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Old 12-23-10, 04:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Sangesf View Post
You'll never generate more power than used, but even 50% rather than the 10% from current regen technics would be cool!
that is what i'm aiming, something worth while, it's a known fact with our current science and technology we can't archive 100% regen power meanwhile the system is being depleted.

but we should be able to convert at least half (50%) of that Kinetic energy back into electric current.

I just want to extend the range we can ride before needed a recharge, and without having to tow a battery cart behind me as we've seen other people do in this forum and other places as well.


I did at one point though about using a Trike setup, but it's cumbersome to park it & lock it, also you lose the benefit from being able to effectively use the narrow room between cars & curbs.

the positive side of riding a trike setup is the added benefit of being able to distribute the extra weight, much more regen options that are worth while.
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Old 12-23-10, 04:19 PM
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by the way, here's a small flash from the past
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regenerative_circuit

it'll be neat, if we could some how develop some sort of up convert generator from thin air (radio waves), and turn it back into electric energy to power our bikes.
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Old 12-23-10, 04:36 PM
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I am convinced there is a more efficient way to recharge the battery on a ebike , while actually using the ebike for transportation...

I have many ideas on possibilities....one I have already mentioned...another one is :

using one brushless hub to power the bike...and another brushless hub that is geared so it will produce usable current to the battery pack . This geared hub motor would have the ability to have the gearing system swicthed on or off via a switch/ button on the handlebars...you would switch it on when going down hills or even on flat land , where the slightly added resistance of the geared hub that produces power to charge the battery pack, would not be to noticeable....then on inclines, you could disengage that geared hub and eliminate the resistance.

These are just loose ideas I have...but I am convinced that regenerative braking will soon be replaced with a better self recharge system.
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Old 12-23-10, 06:26 PM
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Originally Posted by sunnyday View Post
I am convinced there is a more efficient way to recharge the battery on a ebike , while actually using the ebike for transportation...

I have many ideas on possibilities....one I have already mentioned...another one is :

using one brushless hub to power the bike...and another brushless hub that is geared so it will produce usable current to the battery pack . This geared hub motor would have the ability to have the gearing system swicthed on or off via a switch/ button on the handlebars...you would switch it on when going down hills or even on flat land , where the slightly added resistance of the geared hub that produces power to charge the battery pack, would not be to noticeable....then on inclines, you could disengage that geared hub and eliminate the resistance.

These are just loose ideas I have...but I am convinced that regenerative braking will soon be replaced with a better self recharge system.
You might want to consider doing a lot more reading before you try inventing what already exists. If I'm not mistaken a good hub motor couped to a regenerative controller can and will regen the pack while costing down hills. You don't need the added weight of the second motor. But again the gain is minimal compared to your 50% goal.

About the only way your going to regenerate anywhere near what your consuming is solar panels. I'm sure you are aware there are contests for solar and other ways for power generation ideas. Check them out you may find them interesting.
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Old 12-23-10, 07:21 PM
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One scenario where a regen system could extend range would be in hilly areas. Using regen to hold down your speed going down would cut down on the energy lost in excess drag caused by wind resistance. I think it goes up by a cube. In other words you lose 8 times as much energy by doubling speed. I don't know if present battery technology can handle the charge rates.
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Old 12-24-10, 08:10 AM
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GTA why not just add and additional battery pack to your Bionx? If it is 10 amps you would then double your miles. There are forums about the topic all over the internet. https://www.endless-sphere.com/forums...54&hilit=bionx This one being the most informative. I am planning on buying the Bionx 48 volt system when it comes out. I will use it on a fairly heavey long wheel base recumbent. If I am unhappy with the range I plan on putting on a rack over the back wheel and adding a 10 amp ping battery. I am wondering about the Bionx 500. That might be a more desirable set up for me also. With a fairing on my bike I think it might hold a fairly comfortble 25mph. Either system it has been proven realativly easy to add a extra battery.
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Old 12-24-10, 09:37 AM
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To have all these hubs to generate power while running will never happen with simple physics. There's always energy loss no matter what in the form of heat and friction/sound. If you want almost equal gain of energy while you are biking it's like asking for perpetual motion to become a reality but it can never happen.

What sunnyday is proposing is like holding up a solarpowered flashlight and reflecting it's own like back into it's own solar powered panels, It'll lose alot more power in the end than gain anything. You cannot create energy from nothing and to set it up like that and the amount of energy you need to pedal to get that back into the battery it would be easier to ride a normal non ebike.

Last edited by Azreal911; 12-24-10 at 09:40 AM.
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Old 12-24-10, 09:45 AM
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Regen would work if you're going downhill or braking, where you have excess energy. What you would want to do is switch out the regen for all other times.
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Old 12-24-10, 10:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Azreal911 View Post
To have all these hubs to generate power while running will never happen with simple physics. There's always energy loss no matter what in the form of heat and friction/sound. If you want almost equal gain of energy while you are biking it's like asking for perpetual motion to become a reality but it can never happen.

What sunnyday is proposing is like holding up a solarpowered flashlight and reflecting it's own like back into it's own solar powered panels, It'll lose alot more power in the end than gain anything. You cannot create energy from nothing and to set it up like that and the amount of energy you need to pedal to get that back into the battery it would be easier to ride a normal non ebike.
No...that is not what im proposing....in no way have I indictaed that I expect a recharging system on a ebike to be able to put in 100% back into the battery , that another system is taking out.

So your assumptions on my ideas are false...

I did say " I believe there can be improvements on future regenerative systems , compared to the ones in major use today.

Lets say the regen sets on most ebikes may , on average, put back 10% of the energy depleted during use of the battery/hub system...I believe that percentage could be increased to 20% or more, with new technologys and new ideas applied.

The possibility of adding solar panels has some merrit...but the problem is , if you are using 36-48 volt ebike systems , you would know be forced to wire several solar panels in series to get up to the neccessary voltages to force energy into the battery packs.

I have many solar panels, and have some knowledge on them. If I have a 48 volt ebike setup , then I would need to wire 4 - 12 volt panels or 2-24 volt panels in series and then mount them on the ebike so they would get the most sunlight, but not be in the way of my line of sight , while being aeroydynamicly part of the bike itself.

The problem arises , in that solar panels are relatively large, if you want alot of watts/amps.

wiring 4 - 60 watt - 12 volt solar panels in series on a ebike, is possible , but then again you would only now be pumping 50-60 watts back into the battery pack ..and thats in full sunlight, optimum conditions over a period of 1 hour....this isnt much power resent into the battery system when many people are using 500-1000 watt systems.

Perhaps the best current setup is a hybrid system...using one hub to power the bike, another hub wired with solar panels, to help recharge the batterys.
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Old 12-24-10, 11:14 AM
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I think that all your points are valid at least to some degree. A year or 2 ago I saw an ebike (sold in Canada I think) that built solar panels into the wheels covering the spokes (assuming it actually had spokes as we think of them). I'm assuming it was trying to use the panels to regen the pack and not actually run the bike. Couldn't tell you the bikes voltage but I'm guessing it was pretty low and was using a small wattage motor.

As for improvements in conventional regen I'm sure with timke it will improve. I think your average of 10% is very optimistic. The assumption is that because you regen on a down hill this is somehow 100% of value. I say "not so". Why? Because I have found that on all but the steapest hills I would prefer to have that added speed for the relaxed ride on the flat or for the climb of the next upcomming hill. So yes you gain some current by regenerating on the down hilll but I think you may loss just as much or more by the loss of that momentum. I fully admit that I do not have a regen bike but I do drive a Toyota Highlander hybrid and I can tell you it is regenerating eveytime I touch the brake or coasting down hill. And I am willing to say the true value in the regen is 98% regeneration while braking because it saves the brakes and of course the regeneration into the pack. But the regeneration on the coastis only about 2% at best and likely not worth the cost (loss of momentum) on an ebike. PErsonally until things improve I think a bigger pack gives better bang for the buck.

Marry Chrismas everyone,

Bob
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Old 12-24-10, 11:19 AM
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The other way to add energy back is to hook up an old suburu/robin gas generator called the ultimite..
It generated 24v at a decent amperage.. Then just do an up conversion to 36v.. It only weighs 35lbs
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Old 12-24-10, 11:26 AM
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the solar panels that are currently available to us peons in society...are not the most efficient or advanced panels in the marketplace. I saw a special about a year ago , it was about a company that had figured out a way to decrease the size of solar panels but make them more powerful ! ....the technology already exists and these solar " cubes" have been manufactured but they are only available to corps like NASA or the military.....

the one solar cube I saw...looked to be about twice the size of a rubiks puzzle cube and it could put out 200 watts or so of power....the technology involved a setup where the solar panels where cut in squares about 8" x 8" and then stacked on top of each other to form a tight solar cube of 20 or more panels together...evidently the panels were able to pickup sunlight to make electric, but also had the ability to allow sunlight to pass thru each panel so the sunlight could reach the next panel in the cube....

THE TECHNOLOGY IS PROBABLY OUT THERE, RIGHT NOW , to greatly increase regenerative power, but as is usually the case...that type of technology takes 5-10 years to be released to the normal people in society for purchase.
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Old 12-24-10, 02:33 PM
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Solar radiation hitting earth = 1366 watts/ square meter
Square meter = 1550 Square inches
8" square = 64 square inches
1550/64 = 24.2 squares
1336/24.2 = 55 watts

This would be if your bicycle was in orbit and your solar cell was 100% efficent.
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Old 12-24-10, 04:00 PM
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Originally Posted by jethro56 View Post
Solar radiation hitting earth = 1366 watts/ square meter
Square meter = 1550 Square inches
8" square = 64 square inches
1550/64 = 24.2 squares
1336/24.2 = 55 watts

This would be if your bicycle was in orbit and your solar cell was 100% efficent.
im not sure what you are trying to imply ?

I saw the technology and the legitimate company on a special about solar panels.

are you trying to claim that a solar panel must be at least 160 inchs x 160 inchs square to be able to harness 55 watts of power ? I sure hope that isnt what you are implying . I currently have several 50 - 60 watt solar panels that are about 2ft x 2ft square and they are not in orbit ..but are mounted on my back porch and they put out 21 volts in full sunlight at about 3 amps { 63 watts** .

Once again, us peons in society are usually not informed or allowed purchasing acces to the top technologys in use by the military or Nasa...ECSPECIALLY when that technology allows society to become more energy self sufficiient/ independant.

I CAN ASSURE YOU ...that the military and nasa have acces to solar panels that are much more efficient then what society has access to purchase.

Last edited by sunnyday; 12-24-10 at 04:14 PM.
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Old 12-24-10, 04:13 PM
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https://cgi.ebay.com/LOTOS-UL-50-W-WA...item3a618766e5

the above link is a 50 watt solar panel using average and old technologys { not the hi tech technologys available to goverment/military/nasa/ etc**

the dimensions are about 30 " x 21" .....so if we do the math...we can see that a technology that allows a 8 "x8" solar panel to be stacked into a square cube of 20 or more panels...and all those stacked panels recieve sunlight , then its easy to achieve 200 or more watts in a compact , technological advanced solar cube of 20 or more stacked solar panels in a configuration of 12 " x 12" or less. I wish I could remmeber the name of the company that is producing these solar panel cubes....I think they were in Canada.
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