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Okay..heres what a expert says about LIFEPO4 cell LVC...

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Okay..heres what a expert says about LIFEPO4 cell LVC...

Old 04-14-11, 03:10 PM
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Okay..heres what a expert says about LIFEPO4 cell LVC...

I emailed ping battery....asking him if 2.1 LVC for each cell is safe and advisable. heres his response :

The low voltage cut off is cell based. When any cell voltage reaches 2.1v, the BMS will cut off the power.



Voltage of LiFePO4 drops very rapidly when reaching 2.5v when it’s being discharged. So, you can also look it as 2.5v. So, the total will be around 2.5x16=40v. You cannot look it as 2.1x16, because when one cell is 2.1v, the rest cells could still have 2.5v or higher voltage. If all the cells can reach 2.1v at the same time, we wouldn’t need the BMS.



Actually it’s hard to see 2.1v or 2.5v at the moment of cut off, because voltage will rise back to be close to its nominal voltage as soon as the discharge is stopped.



You just need to set the low voltage cut-off of the controller to be around 40v.



33.6v is just ideal on the condition that all the cells are 100% matched and 100% balanced. It’s impossible.



Best regards,



Ping

So according to him...40 volt LVC....is proper....not 33.6 or 46 or 45....

this is for a 48 volt lifepo4.
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Old 04-14-11, 04:22 PM
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And that's fine for "HIS" batteries. But while lifepo4 batteries are all simular they are not exactly the same manufacture to manufacture. Therefore, it is best to follow the recomendations of your manufacture and not a general recomendation. I prefer to error well on the safe side and set my alarm for 2.8v or 44.8v for my 48v pack. Many may consider this as a waste of capasity but I feel comfortable with it and I feel I have the extra capasity to spare. I run a ThunderSky 48v 20ah pack. Bob
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Old 04-14-11, 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted by dumbass
And that's fine for "HIS" batteries. But while lifepo4 batteries are all simular they are not exactly the same manufacture to manufacture. Therefore, it is best to follow the recomendations of your manufacture and not a general recomendation. I prefer to error well on the safe side and set my alarm for 2.8v or 44.8v for my 48v pack. Many may consider this as a waste of capasity but I feel comfortable with it and I feel I have the extra capasity to spare. I run a ThunderSky 48v 20ah pack. Bob
I thought one of the jobs of the BMS, was to ensure that all cells discharge and charge equally....

but according to Ping..the BMS does not accomplish this...

either way, I think a LVC of 40 volts should be safe, and allow much of the battery capacity to be utilized...

having a LVC of 44- 46 , seems like you may be leaving useful energy in the battery , that would equate to several more miles of distance covered , without harming the batteries.
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Old 04-14-11, 08:00 PM
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You didn't read what I wrote earlier...
Forget 2.1 or 2.5... There is VERY LITTLE energy left in a cell once it reaches 2.8v unloaded.
You get MAYBE, AT MOST a HALF of an AH once a cell reaches that plateau.
That equates to about a mile...

Look at ANY discharge curve of just about EVERY LiFePo4 and you'll see what I mean..
The "worst case" scenario of lifepo4 after 2.8v is .25ah and "best case" is .75ah.

Constantly discharging at 2.1-2.5 cutoff WILL SIGNIFICANTLY lower your usable cycles.

To repeat what I stated in another thread..

I have OVER A THOUSAND cycles on my 36v 15ah battery and my LVC I set at 2.8v per cell and to THIS DAY. I still get 14 AH out of that battery setting the LVC at 2.8 per and that's ~92% of "full AH rating" of my battery, even after all of those cycles..
My numbers dont lie...

You seem to think that there is a significant amount of energy between 2.8v and 2.1v.. It just ain't true.
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Old 04-14-11, 08:06 PM
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FYI, I purchased a 48v 30ah battery from the guy you bought your kit/battery..
How long did it take for you to get the battery? What LVC does he say the BMS is set at?
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Old 04-14-11, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Sangesf
FYI, I purchased a 48v 30ah battery from the guy you bought your kit/battery..
How long did it take for you to get the battery? What LVC does he say the BMS is set at?
about 2-3 weeks...

the battery takes a bit longer to recieve, then the kit..because of customs...

I just emailedf him..and asked him what the BMS is set at for the 48 volt/20 A/h kits...
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Old 04-14-11, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Sangesf
You didn't read what I wrote earlier...
You seem to think that there is a significant amount of energy between 2.8v and 2.1v.. It just ain't true.
well thats .7 volts x 16 cells...

you dont think that would eqaute to a few more miles in distance travelled ? Right now, my BMS is cutting out at about 18 miles travelled...If I could reset it to cutoff at 40 volts, instead of 46 volts , you dont think that would result in a few more miles of distance, while still giving adeqaute protection to the lifepo4 ?
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Old 04-14-11, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by sunnyday
well thats .7 volts x 16 cells...

you dont think that would eqaute to a few more miles in distance travelled ? Right now, my BMS is cutting out at about 18 miles travelled...If I could reset it to cutoff at 40 volts, instead of 46 volts , you dont think that would result in a few more miles of distance, while still giving adeqaute protection to the lifepo4 ?
18 miles on a 48v 20ah battery?
That 53wh/mile.. That's horrific...
I get at WORST 30wh/mile and my bike with me on it weighs, over 350lbs..
Something is wrong.. Do you have a watt meter to test how many AHs you're getting?
I get 21 miles off of 36v 15ah.

FORGET volts.. .7v per cell at 2.8v unloaded goes FAST.
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Old 04-14-11, 09:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Sangesf
18 miles on a 48v 20ah battery?
That 53wh/mile.. That's horrific...
I get at WORST 30wh/mile and my bike with me on it weighs, over 350lbs..
Something is wrong.. Do you have a watt meter to test how many AHs you're getting?
I get 21 miles off of 36v 15ah.

FORGET volts.. .7v per cell at 2.8v unloaded goes FAST.
well I weigh 280 lbs...bike weighs 70 lbs....and I live in a moutainous location....so the highways/roads here are quite steep, for fairly long distances...

is your riding location fairly flat ?
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Old 04-14-11, 09:24 PM
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I have a inline wattmeter installed on the bike....so I should look at my A/h readings ?
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Old 04-15-11, 11:13 AM
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53 watt hours per mile? Wow. That sounds like the usage pattern of a wannabe motorcycle, rather than a hybrid vehicle/ebike with substantial human contribution. I'm around 14 watt hours per mile on my trike, even in hilly terrain, as I pedal a lot. And its very much worth having a battery sufficiently large so that you never have to run it to cutoff of the BMS. Much easier on the cells.
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Old 04-15-11, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by sunnyday
well thats .7 volts x 16 cells...

you dont think that would eqaute to a few more miles in distance travelled ? Right now, my BMS is cutting out at about 18 miles travelled...If I could reset it to cutoff at 40 volts, instead of 46 volts , you dont think that would result in a few more miles of distance, while still giving adeqaute protection to the lifepo4 ?
LOL, I don't think you are hearing what we are telling you. At a certain point a cell starts to drop in voltage very quickly. You say you have a volt meter on the bike. Great, but do you look at it constantly? You also say you live in an area of long steep hills. I'm sure you relize that you use much more power on a hill then on a flat. So what if you are starting up one of the steep long hills and your close to the 2.8v and don't happen to be staring at your volt meter. OPPS, one of your cells just dropped extreamly low...maybe below 2.0v (very easy to do) and to bad so sad it died. So if you really think it is worth the risk of damaging a cell or several cells I say "Go for it!!". I think everyone should do what ever they think is best for them. And who are we to try to reccomend you error on the safe side so your cells will live a long and happy life. Their your cells so go ahead and kill the little suckers if you want....after all, it's your money! BTW, most people will tell you not to run your cell beyond to 80% to 85% capasity level. And I think you will find that at 2.8v your well past that point. Good luck and happy ridin.......
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Old 04-21-11, 11:53 AM
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Sunnyday,

I have some (maybe) good news for you...

According to the manufacturer of the battery you (and I) bought, the 20ah is NOT 20ah, it's 21Ah!
(Supposedly, he uses 3ah Cylindrical cells in an 8p configuration)
His BMS is set (again supposedly) for 2.05v per cell which is too low, however MY controller is set for 2.6v, so I'm safe for sure.

Have you tested out "full" range or AH yet?
(P.S. Make SURE you don't drain past 2.6v per cell or 41.6v for pack and see how many AH you get)
When I get mine (36v), I will test it out that day (and prolly night too!)
(I will run about 10, 10mile "runs" (at full throttle) to "break-in" the pack and then run my pack from full (39.6v or 3.3v/cell) to "empty" (32.4v or 2.7v/cell) and let you know how close the manufacturer's specs are to actual.
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Old 04-21-11, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Sangesf
Sunnyday,

I have some (maybe) good news for you...

According to the manufacturer of the battery you (and I) bought, the 20ah is NOT 20ah, it's 21Ah!
(Supposedly, he uses 3ah Cylindrical cells in an 8p configuration)
His BMS is set (again supposedly) for 2.05v per cell which is too low, however MY controller is set for 2.6v, so I'm safe for sure.

Have you tested out "full" range or AH yet?
(P.S. Make SURE you don't drain past 2.6v per cell or 41.6v for pack and see how many AH you get)
When I get mine (36v), I will test it out that day (and prolly night too!)
(I will run about 10, 10mile "runs" (at full throttle) to "break-in" the pack and then run my pack from full (39.6v or 3.3v/cell) to "empty" (32.4v or 2.7v/cell) and let you know how close the manufacturer's specs are to actual.
so the important number im looking for is the A/h reading on my meter , from full battery , to depleted battery at LVC ?
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Old 04-21-11, 02:47 PM
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AH when your resting voltage is at about 44v. (which should be very close to LVC and I would seriously suggest you take it easy on the battery or pedal home from there.
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Old 04-21-11, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Sangesf
AH when your resting voltage is at about 44v. (which should be very close to LVC and I would seriously suggest you take it easy on the battery or pedal home from there.
Except the resting voltage is always higher then the voltage under a load. This is true on any kind of battery. So I would never use the resting voltage as an indicator of the pack or cells condition. Or did I misunderstand your comment?
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Old 04-21-11, 07:23 PM
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Resting voltage of 44v would be 2.8 per cell and figured under load, that would hit his LVC on the controller or very close to it, since his cells are relatively balanced.
He will figure it out.. He'll lose top end speed and torque and the power level lights on his throttle will flicker... He'll realize that he's close to LVC.
Also when he gets past 18 or so AH, he'll notice it.

Last edited by Sangesf; 04-21-11 at 07:28 PM.
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Old 04-21-11, 08:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Sangesf
Resting voltage of 44v would be 2.8 per cell and figured under load, that would hit his LVC on the controller or very close to it, since his cells are relatively balanced.
He will figure it out.. He'll lose top end speed and torque and the power level lights on his throttle will flicker... He'll realize that he's close to LVC.
Also when he gets past 18 or so AH, he'll notice it.
Yeah, I don't disagree with your numbers of 44v at rest he will be at his cutout under load. My point is that a LVC is really a poor protection for a pack. It is only looking at the total of the pack. So if you have a runt (and you show me a pack that has all 100% matched cells especially after a year of hard usage) the total of the pack could be showing 44v or or what ever and the runt cell or cells are well below the danger point. That's why I think if you going bet the life of your pack on a LVC you are smart to set that LVC high to protect a runt cell or cells. I personally use a Celllog 8s and monitor individual cell and pack voltages. Each 24v pack is wired with an alarm that can be heard in China if one of my cells or the pack goes below my set point. So if you your not going to monitor individual cells you really should error on the safe side. And I thin the safe side is 2.8v under load. I just think is a mistake to trust a LVC on total pack voltage. But we all have our opinions.
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Old 04-21-11, 09:39 PM
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His pack is only a month old and only has 30 cycles on it at most..
His cells should be pretty well balanced at this point.
If his pack was a year or more old or had hundreds of cycles, I would give him different advice.
This is the best time for him to test full AH capacity...
Even if he has an errant cell group, even dropping it to 2.0v once is not going to be detrimental.
I've had a cell group (on a 36v 15ah) go to 4.0v once and another group drop to 1.7v once, and my pack STILL holds a 90-95% capacity after 2.5 years.
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Old 04-22-11, 12:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Sangesf
His pack is only a month old and only has 30 cycles on it at most..
His cells should be pretty well balanced at this point.
If his pack was a year or more old or had hundreds of cycles, I would give him different advice.
This is the best time for him to test full AH capacity...
Even if he has an errant cell group, even dropping it to 2.0v once is not going to be detrimental.
I've had a cell group (on a 36v 15ah) go to 4.0v once and another group drop to 1.7v once, and my pack STILL holds a 90-95% capacity after 2.5 years.
Again, I'm not trying to argue with your advise just giving caution because he is not planning to do something once as you did in what was likely an error. He is looking for long term hard core numbers. And yes I too charged to well over 4v actually half my pack hit 4.16v and I pulled the plug on what was said to be a "smart charger" that would never allow this to happen. Interestingly we can never know how much damage is done if any by over charging or running cells to low. I guess what I am saying is if your pack last 5 years would it have lasted say another year if it hadn't had this occasional OPPs? No way to really know so I prefer to error on the safe side. But then again there's nothing wrong with a pack lasting 5 years.......is there?
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Old 04-28-11, 05:54 PM
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Here's something I came across today while looking for cell bleeders. I found it interesting and worth reading.

About Lithium Iron Phosphate Batteries
A “battery” is made up of “cells”. Each cell is an individual unit that cannot be split into a lower
voltage component.
LFP cells have a nominal voltage of 3.2-3.4V. This is the voltage that the cells drop back to when at
rest. They will stay around 3.2V until about 90% discharged when the voltage will begin to
decrease until fully discharged at 2.5V. It is highly recommended to discharge less than 80% of the
cells total Amp Hour capacity. This will help to maximize the cell life.
LFP cells may be connected in “series” (+ to – to + etc) to obtain a higher nominal voltage. This
creates a “battery”. They may also be connected in “parallel” (+ to +, - to -) to increase the Ah
capacity. Under no circumstances should cells or a battery be short circuited, that is the +
connected directly to the – to create a loop. This will damage the cells and most likely the operator
also.
Under no circumstances should the cell voltage be allowed to fall below 2.5V for a sustained
period. Permanent damage will result. It is possible that this situation may occur if the battery is
allowed to stand for a long time (ie. months). In this situation the BMS will not allow recharge
because a cell is outside the safe range. To try and rectify the problem a small 4.5V 300mAh DC
plug pack type power supply can be applied to individual cells one at a time until the cell voltages
rise above 2.5V and the BMS will allow normal charging to commence. Care must be taken with
the first few charges as the battery may be severely unbalanced.
A visual check of the battery pack during charging should be made every 3 months. Switch off the
BCU and on again to check that the contactor is operating correctly. Check the cells for corrosion or
other damage.

https://www.evpower.com.au/IMG/pdf/BC...-8C-manual.pdf
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Old 04-28-11, 09:02 PM
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Yep..
That's about right...

Just for fun(?), yesterday, I took one of my many extra (bad) lifepo4 cells (this particular one has screw posts on it) and took a buss bar and shorted it out to see what would happen...
I'm talking a complete sustained short...
It was fun to watch...
The only thing that really happened was the copper buss bar got really hot and the cell puffed... I left it like that for 20 mins and at the end, the buss bar was too hot to touch and the battery was quite warm..
Lifepo4 cells are really "safe" compared to the other lithium chemistries..
BUT, DO NOT TRY THIS AT HOME!
(I was in an empty 10 acre field near my house)
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Old 04-28-11, 09:12 PM
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But did you notice they say a cell will show about 3.2v for 90% of it's capasity but they recommend not normally exceeding 80% of capasity? This is basicly what I was saying. It is not adviseable to graw down lifepo4 cells to 2.0v or even 2.5v. In fact if they hold 3.2 for 90% of capasity they shouldn't even be drawn down past 3.2v. But we all know that under a load the voltage is going to drop below 3.2v. It's hard to figure but I am guessing they are talking about voltage at rest again. Which is a little stupid when talking about a draw down capasity.

Bob
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Old 04-28-11, 10:08 PM
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Also depends on the C rate (and appropriate voltage sag).
The best way is to figure out your max Ah available by going from full to LVC just ONCE.
THEN, figure out 90% and never use more than that for the longest possible cell life.
Like I said before...
My best battery life so far has been the 15AH lifepo4 that I've had for 2.5 years and over 1000 cycles and I still have a usuable 14ah out of 15 or 93% capacity.
~15% less than 20% depth
~75% between 20% and 80% depth
~10% more than 80% (and 25% of that is to LVC of 2.5v - 2.7v)

Also of note, my controller pulls 25a MAX (1.6c) and I usually cruise at about 10a (.7c) and my battery is rated for 1C continuous and 2C max.

I also know, that once I start getting close to the 14ah, I can notice the slightly higher sag on the battery and that's when I stop using it.
Now mind you, I almost never use 14ah, BUT I constantly use 13AH..
(For me, 14AH is about 19-20 miles and 13AH is 17-18 miles)
Once I "break in" the new 36v 20ah, I will charge it fully and then once I get close to 19AH I will take it "easy" on the battery with a max amp pull of 5a (C/4) until I hit LVC. That will give me the max range I'm able to get. And will ride accordingly..
I will let you all know the "capacity" of this batt.
(P.S. Sunnyday, have you tested your max range yet or total AH capacity of yours yet?)

Last edited by Sangesf; 04-28-11 at 10:30 PM.
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Old 04-28-11, 10:20 PM
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I just ordered 2 - 36v 20AH batts to extend my range, and on a side note, I replaced my back battery box with a new one of the same type and did NOT put the subwoofer back in and hooked up a smaller amp to just power the two tweeters and one midrange on my handlebars. The subwoofer was just too heavy for the box's material to hold it well.
WHEN (not if) I get my new diamond plate aluminum box, I will put the subwoofer back (along with the neon) because..
1.) The diamond plate will hold the sub VERY securely.
2.) I think I will get much better bass out of it.
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